Driver Shortage - What happened? T&D wants your views!

the nodding donkey:

Londontrucker123:

the nodding donkey:

Honestscott76:
The ‘limpers’ as you call them are used to taking time off as they can afford to.

It’s the ‘paye’, ‘need job security’, need my own truck with lights & shiny trim brigade who wouldn’t have the balls. The same guys who run with defects because they might lose their ‘toy’ if it goes into the garage.

The limpers are used to taking time off when the agency doesn’t call them. Making them ready for the Friday evening call 'can you be in tomorrow morning, 4 o’clock? '.

Ever think HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA is the reason you are starting in the middle of night on a weekend for £9.80 an hour. If no drivers showed up for two days, they would be desperate hence you will be able to now be in negotiate a better pay rate. They would be in a position where it’s affecting their wages so they would have to do something.

Your Friday night / Sat. morning rate is £9.80 an hour, are you serious.

I get more than double that for that time of the day / week. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You’re getting your quotes mixed up. And a touch hysterical too…

Nothing mixed up here, or hysterical either.

Care to elaborate?

You end your post with manical laughing. Not a good sign.

the nodding donkey:
You end your post with manical laughing. Not a good sign.

I copied it directly from your po… Oh god do I even have to explain.

Londontrucker123:

the nodding donkey:
You end your post with manical laughing. Not a good sign.

I copied it directly from your po… Oh god do I even have to explain.

Obviously. But it’s OK if it helps you.

It’s not unique to the Haulage industry.
Was talking yesterday to a HGV repairer, they offer around £18.00 an hour (shift 4 on 4 off) and they struggle for good mechanics.
A company near me offer £ 14-15 p/h (shift weekdays and Saturday morning no nights) and they struggle.
Ok the investment is a bit higher for a good mechanic (if I mind correctly 30+k for a Scania Master Technician) and you have to bring your own tools (10k ?)
But the earning possibilities are there.

But young kids don’t want the dirty hard work, they rather work for £9 an hour in the BMW or Merc car dealer on diagnostics.

It’s not only about money, but being treated correctly, and the Haulage industry wouldn’t do wrong to make the job professional again.
Clean dressed, washed and shaved wellbehaved drivers (would be nice if they could talk more than some grumble under their breath) well paid well looked after, and be clear to their corporate customers, that their drivers need to be treated with respect, jump on the big companies and slap them with demurage if drivers have to wait.
If it cost more than an extra man in the warehouse, stuff will speed up, and companies can start to make a living.

Far too many buzy fools in the industry, a truck parked at an RDC for hours cannot make any money.
The industry need to stand up, but as I have said before, there are far too many big players who make their money out of storage and order picking, and for them transport is only a service, killing the industry and prices in one big swoop.

The pay can be a ■■■■■■■ disgrace. I’m earning more in a little skip lorry that I was with Andrew Black, I’ve also been offered an Arctic block delivery role and they are offering to put me through my grab ticket… for a whole 8.60 an hour!! Hahaha no thanks

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

The problem is no one wants to be a Truck Driver its simple. Gone are the old days of camaraderie etc. Its every man for himself now days. I have 5 vacancies for UK Tramping paying £31.5k Pa + Nights out and overtime Based in Suffolk and Immingham and the applications are almost at Zero. I have just taken one lad on x Army who has 2 years experience and he is Brilliant. That’s the other stumbling block also. 2 years experience. My insurers will not even offer the option of a increased Excess to take younger lads with little or no experience on either. Its a crazy world in the trucking Business at the moment.

As has been stated there’s never been a driver shortage just a shortage of good operators.

There are still cream jobs out there with no shortage of applicants when a vacancy becomes available.

Operators need to look at themselves, no good moaning, focus on driver retention as well as recruitment. Start treating the driver as an asset rather than a liability.

No good operators saying ‘We are struggling to recruit’, when drivers are saying your crap.

The driver shortage myth is perpetuated by ■■■■ poor operators trying to keep wages down by trying to create an excess of drivers. Been happening as long as I’ve been on the game.

kr79:
Hi Lucy I sent an email in to commercial motor a few weeks back in response to your article on this that was coming at it from the operators perspective.
In my opinion the operators that struggle are the ones that pay poor wages won’t pay parking and expect max hours etc.
I saw a job advertised on a Facebook page today class 1 tram per self employed 550 a week all in. No doubt the operator will tell everyone you can’t get drivers not that you can’t get people that will bend over and be shafted
The other things are micro management from company’s especially the blue chips. Umpteen calls a day toolbox talks and memos about the correct way to climb up the steps in to the cab debriefs after every shift. Your driving a lorry to deliver baked beans to Tesco not defusing a bomb ffs.
After all that it’s more often than not these firms that you see buried under a bridge or in an alleyway that the sat nav told them to go down.
Add in lack of facilities and unsociable hours the feeling your about as welcome as a ■■■■ in an astronauts suit atvmany firms and delivery points.
The feeling your are been demonised by the likes of the mayor of London and the media I’m not one of the it’s up there with rocket science and we should be on 1500 quid a week merchants but all in all it’s on the whole a pretty crap job to get in to now.

+1.

I was waiting for Lucy to post the Operators thread, but since you said what I think, I’ll chip in now.

I believe if you are in the truck, you get paid for breaks and POA, it isn’t as if you can really do much else. Our wages are above average, not the absolute best, but paying right through helps balance it and there’s never any question about paying expenses.

I hate the zero hours rubbish and self-employed route, agree with HMRC ( that’s a first!), if you don’t have a truck, you aren’t self-employed. If I want someone to work for me and do their best, then I give them a contract and with it security. I don’t have the work, then it’s my problem and I need to find it; the driver gets paid either way.

I also employ people to do their job, I don’t want to do it for them, I don’t need to ring them every 5 minutes to find out what they are doing and tell them how to do it better. I don’t think the micromanaging is unique to drivers though, it’s more common across all walks of life now. I don’t know if it’s middle management justifying their existance, control freakery or a belief that drivers can only put a key in an ignition and after that they need to have their hands held. Frankly once I’ve given my lot the job, I don’t want to speak to them, it means there’s a problem if I do; though if it’s a run that takes a week or more I speak to them so they know they haven’t been forgotten :blush: . Our debrief consists of ‘how’d it go?’ :laughing: . If you give people responsibility, they rarely let you down, unless they are incompetent in the first place, in which case they won’t be staying. Our main customers are decent too, so where we deliver and collect from, the drivers are made to feel that they are part of the team, particularly when there’s a field trial on.

We are lucky that most people once they come to us, usually via word or mouth, they stay and stay. However, if I were to put an ad on the tinternet saying, ‘Need drivers for Euro, quite a lot of double-manning’, not a lot of people would apply. It’s the long hours, away from home bit that puts people off. It used to be quite an adventure and the romance of the foreign open road, now there is so much moved by road and younger people see travelling in Europe much like I saw going to Birmingham at their age, all the glamour ( such as it was ), has gone.

Trucky Mc truckface:
The problem is no one wants to be a Truck Driver its simple. Gone are the old days of camaraderie etc. Its every man for himself now days. I have 5 vacancies for UK Tramping paying £31.5k Pa + Nights out and overtime Based in Suffolk and Immingham and the applications are almost at Zero. I have just taken one lad on x Army who has 2 years experience and he is Brilliant. That’s the other stumbling block also. 2 years experience. My insurers will not even offer the option of a increased Excess to take younger lads with little or no experience on either. Its a crazy world in the trucking Business at the moment.

Those ex-army guys are model employees. Trained with obedience and respect. Yes sir!

Strange you have 5 vacancies and paying “£31.5k pa + nights out” tho. I suspect you require the whole card filled and more?

Companies can’t keep ‘good drivers’ because their perception of such a driver differs so much.

albion:

kr79:
Hi Lucy I sent an email in to commercial motor a few weeks back in response to your article on this that was coming at it from the operators perspective.
In my opinion the operators that struggle are the ones that pay poor wages won’t pay parking and expect max hours etc.
I saw a job advertised on a Facebook page today class 1 tram per self employed 550 a week all in. No doubt the operator will tell everyone you can’t get drivers not that you can’t get people that will bend over and be shafted
The other things are micro management from company’s especially the blue chips. Umpteen calls a day toolbox talks and memos about the correct way to climb up the steps in to the cab debriefs after every shift. Your driving a lorry to deliver baked beans to Tesco not defusing a bomb ffs.
After all that it’s more often than not these firms that you see buried under a bridge or in an alleyway that the sat nav told them to go down.
Add in lack of facilities and unsociable hours the feeling your about as welcome as a ■■■■ in an astronauts suit atvmany firms and delivery points.
The feeling your are been demonised by the likes of the mayor of London and the media I’m not one of the it’s up there with rocket science and we should be on 1500 quid a week merchants but all in all it’s on the whole a pretty crap job to get in to now.

+1.

I was waiting for Lucy to post the Operators thread, but since you said what I think, I’ll chip in now.

I believe if you are in the truck, you get paid for breaks and POA, it isn’t as if you can really do much else. Our wages are above average, not the absolute best, but paying right through helps balance it and there’s never any question about paying expenses.

I hate the zero hours rubbish and self-employed route, agree with HMRC ( that’s a first!), if you don’t have a truck, you aren’t self-employed. If I want someone to work for me and do their best, then I give them a contract and with it security. I don’t have the work, then it’s my problem and I need to find it; the driver gets paid either way.

I also employ people to do their job, I don’t want to do it for them, I don’t need to ring them every 5 minutes to find out what they are doing and tell them how to do it better. I don’t think the micromanaging is unique to drivers though, it’s more common across all walks of life now. I don’t know if it’s middle management justifying their existance, control freakery or a belief that drivers can only put a key in an ignition and after that they need to have their hands held. Frankly once I’ve given my lot the job, I don’t want to speak to them, it means there’s a problem if I do; though if it’s a run that takes a week or more I speak to them so they know they haven’t been forgotten :blush: . Our debrief consists of ‘how’d it go?’ :laughing: . If you give people responsibility, they rarely let you down, unless they are incompetent in the first place, in which case they won’t be staying. Our main customers are decent too, so where we deliver and collect from, the drivers are made to feel that they are part of the team, particularly when there’s a field trial on.

We are lucky that most people once they come to us, usually via word or mouth, they stay and stay. However, if I were to put an ad on the tinternet saying, ‘Need drivers for Euro, quite a lot of double-manning’, not a lot of people would apply. It’s the long hours, away from home bit that puts people off. It used to be quite an adventure and the romance of the foreign open road, now there is so much moved by road and younger people see travelling in Europe much like I saw going to Birmingham at their age, all the glamour ( such as it was ), has gone.

“If you don’t have a truck, you aren’t self-employed” absolute bunkum!

I think you will find it’s perfectly legal in the UK to supply your ‘services’ just as agencies do, they supply the services of qualified HGV drivers. Hence why the more informed drivers have formed a limited company to act as their legal agent. The Limited company is a separate legal entity which acts as an ‘umbrella’ to stop any unwanted crap falling down on the service provider (Driver).

I understand why you ‘hate’ it but it’s perfectly legal to do so. I suppose the government wouldn’t want everybody doing it, hence the uncertainty among drivers as to its legality.

In any case if it’s so illegal, then why are the government ‘aiding and abetting’ the thousands of drivers who have set up these Limited companies? I in particular have traded in this way for 5 years and paid income tax, corporate tax, value added tax (vat) each year amounting to thousands of pounds. Are you saying the government are accepting these monies from illegally formed companies?

Honestscott76:
“If you don’t have a truck, you aren’t self-employed” absolute bunkum!

I think you will find it’s perfectly legal in the UK to supply your ‘services’ just as agencies do, they supply the services of qualified HGV drivers. Hence why the more informed drivers have formed a limited company to act as their legal agent. The Limited company is a separate legal entity which acts as an ‘umbrella’ to stop any unwanted crap falling down on the service provider (Driver).

I understand why you ‘hate’ it but it’s perfectly legal to do so. I suppose the government wouldn’t want everybody doing it, hence the uncertainty among drivers as to its legality.

In any case if it’s so illegal, then why are the government ‘aiding and abetting’ the thousands of drivers who have set up these Limited companies? I in particular have traded in this way for 5 years and paid income tax, corporate tax, value added tax (vat) each year amounting to thousands of pounds. Are you saying the government are accepting these monies from illegally formed companies?

I went to an Operator briefing a couple of months ago with the RHA and Backhouse solicitors that touched on several subjects,including the subject of self-employed drivers. It was fairly clear what determined being a self-employed driver and a truck was it. I can’t link a conference, but I’ve found this

transportoperator.co.uk/2016/05/ … d-drivers/

He continued: “In road haulage, it is rare for someone to be genuinely self-employed unless they are an owner-driver.

As to why HMRC don’t question some of the dodgier schemes, no idea. Possibly a lack of manpower?

There wouldn’t be any shortage of drivers if only they would unionise. The pay would improve, the conditions would improve and quite probably the roadside facilities would also improve. As a consequence the cheapskate hauliers would be weeded out of the industry and the rate chargeable for the job would be able to support such improvements. However for the current situation both the drivers themselves and the hauliers have only themselves to blame.

Yes prices in the shops would go up …tough. Perhaps a little more concentration will be needed by consumers upon what their income should be spent upon. We have been sold an entire lifestyle based upon credit which is designed to allow the large corporations to get richer and to keep the the workers in their place - in debt and servile, this achieved by convincing us all that we can have the product today on the never-never. The result? ever more want and little appreciation of what we have just bought. There is a gulf between need and want. Is it essential for each child to have a 46" tele in its bedroom? Is the fact that orange is the new “in colour” sufficient reason to have a new kitchen when the current one is only five years old? maybe if the dog wasn’t allowed on the setee it wouldn’t need replacing?

The same collective action will benefit hauliers if only they would wake up. If the hauliers took more care to avoid unproductive mileage, half empty vehicle movements, charged demurrage automatically at a punitive rate, refused to accept goods unless packaged in a manner suitable for securing in the vehicle, but above all only carried traffic which provided a profit without any reliance upon backloading and spent a little less time and money designing a new livery for the fleet, then their profitability would improve. But all the time they attempt to do their competitors out of business by adopting ludicrous schemes such as investing in, for example double deck trailers, with the potential to carry up to 52 pallets and then GIVE their customer the financial benefit of the increased productivity by charging the same rate as they had for 26 pallets or scant extra, then nothing will change. Instead they seek to maintain the status quo by operating local wage cartels.

Bring on it all grinding to a halt.

cav551:
The same collective action will benefit hauliers if only they would wake up. If the hauliers took more care to avoid unproductive mileage, half empty vehicle movements, charged demurrage automatically at a punitive rate, refused to accept goods unless packaged in a manner suitable for securing in the vehicle, but above all only carried traffic which provided a profit without any reliance upon backloading and spent a little less time and money designing a new livery for the fleet, then their profitability would improve. But all the time they attempt to do their competitors out of business by adopting ludicrous schemes such as investing in, for example double deck trailers, with the potential to carry up to 52 pallets and then GIVE their customer the financial benefit of the increased productivity by charging the same rate as they had for 26 pallets or scant extra, then nothing will change. Instead they seek to maintain the status quo by operating local wage cartels.

Bring on it all grinding to a halt.

We no longer load back out of Euroland. I cannot compete with the Poles etc, I’d run at a loss, it’s better to come back empty and re-load at a decent rate. I agree it’s daft, but you can’t compete with another haulier whose costs are so much cheaper.

I gave up competing years ago. There’s companies that started around the same time as me, ten times as big, but I frankly am not very good at the business side of cost cutting. I know what a decent rate is and if someone won’t pay, then I walk away.

PS I’m not worried about the dog getting on the chair, it’s the fact that she ate the arm of it before xmas :laughing: . :laughing: :laughing:

cav551:
There wouldn’t be any shortage of drivers if only they would unionise. The pay would improve, the conditions would improve and quite probably the roadside facilities would also improve. As a consequence the cheapskate hauliers would be weeded out of the industry and the rate chargeable for the job would be able to support such improvements. However for the current situation both the drivers themselves and the hauliers have only themselves to blame.

Yes prices in the shops would go up …tough. Perhaps a little more concentration will be needed by consumers upon what their income should be spent upon. We have been sold an entire lifestyle based upon credit which is designed to allow the large corporations to get richer and to keep the the workers in their place - in debt and servile, this achieved by convincing us all that we can have the product today on the never-never. The result? ever more want and little appreciation of what we have just bought. There is a gulf between need and want. Is it essential for each child to have a 46" tele in its bedroom? Is the fact that orange is the new “in colour” sufficient reason to have a new kitchen when the current one is only five years old? maybe if the dog wasn’t allowed on the setee it wouldn’t need replacing?

The same collective action will benefit hauliers if only they would wake up. If the hauliers took more care to avoid unproductive mileage, half empty vehicle movements, charged demurrage automatically at a punitive rate, refused to accept goods unless packaged in a manner suitable for securing in the vehicle, but above all only carried traffic which provided a profit without any reliance upon backloading and spent a little less time and money designing a new livery for the fleet, then their profitability would improve. But all the time they attempt to do their competitors out of business by adopting ludicrous schemes such as investing in, for example double deck trailers, with the potential to carry up to 52 pallets and then GIVE their customer the financial benefit of the increased productivity by charging the same rate as they had for 26 pallets or scant extra, then nothing will change. Instead they seek to maintain the status quo by operating local wage cartels.

Bring on it all grinding to a halt.

Firstly my grandad was in a highly unionised driving job and took part in the 1926 general strike and was worse off in real terms in 1930 than he was then.I’m sure if he was here now he’d tell you that,as proved again in 1979 and 1984,unions are no good without an equally sympathetic government economic policy dedicated to maximising job opportunities and wages rather than minimising them.

He’d also tell you that the road transport industry can’t provide a well paid attractive job environment,by going along with a government policy that’s equally dedicated to minimising the amount of miles run and the tonne mile productivety of trucks in favour of rail.

On that note yet more local running in the form of hub systems and intermodal operations etc etc,combined with stagnant productivety in the form of on going over regulation of truck dimensions and weights,and prohibitive fuel taxation, won’t work regardless of how strong the road transport unions are.Just as was the case in the 1920’s and 70’s.

Make no mistake ‘if’ there is any ‘shortage’ of drivers it has more to do with people avoiding an industry that the government is clearly intent on reducing to a subservient second class local delivery service of the type it was in the 1920’s,than them being happy to accept the dregs left,after the long haul sectors have been effectively taken out of the scene.Or for that matter a younger generation having been raised on the indoctrination that trucks are nasty evil things best avoided.

Let alone the impossible idea that the industry can increase wages in real terms while at the same time being subjected to the lose lose situation of massive fuel costs and enforced reduction in miles run and stagnant productivety levels.The idea that smaller trucks,as opposed to LHV’s,are the answer to that,is just playing into the government’s hands in that regard.

Cav551’s post is one of the most sensible, to the point, and spot on the mark posts i’ve seen in many a year, it’s no coincidence that properly unionised jobs still lead the terms and conditions out there.

Albion runs you neck and neck for common sense tell it how it really is mind, well done Mm A for simply refusing to join the race to the bottom.

If there’s one place the term if it’s not broke, don’t fix it applies to perfectly, it’s the uk haulage industry. For all the bean counters that sit in offices, dreaming up phrases and directives, from telematics to debriefing, there’s a host of drivers dumbed down to boredom. Race to the bottom logistics providers, cheap migrant labour, Victorian working hours, poor if any facilities at all, health and safety that only applies to the safety of workers where you’re delivering, and not you or the public while you’re off site later, 19 year old planners who’ve never left the area telling you that your 20 years experience is wrong, because the email says so, and the list goes on. Apart from the trucks changing for the better (even with all my issues regarding my current one), everything else is significantly worse.

What could sort it all out? Well the Government need to intervene. We need a haulage czar. Somebody who will set a minimum price, so we stop this ridiculous undercutting race to the bottom. A reduction in fuel duty, and reducing corporation tax for companies that have unions, and pay well above the living wage. Encourage employers to pay better, while paying less taxes and earning better rates. Then we might see a return to well turned out, on time trucks and drivers, winning customers on levels of service, not just the lowest quote.

OVLOV JAY:
If there’s one place the term if it’s not broke, don’t fix it applies to perfectly, it’s the uk haulage industry. For all the bean counters that sit in offices, dreaming up phrases and directives, from telematics to debriefing, there’s a host of drivers dumbed down to boredom. Race to the bottom logistics providers, cheap migrant labour, Victorian working hours, poor if any facilities at all, health and safety that only applies to the safety of workers where you’re delivering, and not you or the public while you’re off site later, 19 year old planners who’ve never left the area telling you that your 20 years experience is wrong, because the email says so, and the list goes on. Apart from the trucks changing for the better (even with all my issues regarding my current one), everything else is significantly worse.

What could sort it all out? Well the Government need to intervene. We need a haulage czar. Somebody who will set a minimum price, so we stop this ridiculous undercutting race to the bottom. A reduction in fuel duty, and reducing corporation tax for companies that have unions, and pay well above the living wage. Encourage employers to pay better, while paying less taxes and earning better rates. Then we might see a return to well turned out, on time trucks and drivers, winning customers on levels of service, not just the lowest quote.

^ This.

The industry needs the carrot of a fair and level playing field regards costs in the form of removal of excessive fuel taxation and providing increased productivety in the form of LHV’s and quotas/restrictions applied regards foreign access to the UK/international haulage market market including a total ban on all cabotage operations.

Combined with the stick of that then forcibly being reflected in drivers’ terms and conditions and wages.

Stopping the free movement of foreign labour and a strong unionised workforce,which sets an industry specific minimum wage,being the best way to achieve the latter.

One issue is that I can’t see any Politician tackling the low pay and conditions in the industry… the end result would be a hike in product prices and that wouldn’t make them very popular with the electorate… Mp’s are generally more concerned about keeping their job/ pay packet and the ‘perks’ that brings.

cav551:
There wouldn’t be any shortage of drivers if only they would unionise. The pay would improve, the conditions would improve and quite probably the roadside facilities would also improve. As a consequence the cheapskate hauliers would be weeded out of the industry and the rate chargeable for the job would be able to support such improvements. However for the current situation both the drivers themselves and the hauliers have only themselves to blame.

Yes prices in the shops would go up …tough. Perhaps a little more concentration will be needed by consumers upon what their income should be spent upon. We have been sold an entire lifestyle based upon credit which is designed to allow the large corporations to get richer and to keep the the workers in their place - in debt and servile, this achieved by convincing us all that we can have the product today on the never-never. The result? ever more want and little appreciation of what we have just bought. There is a gulf between need and want. Is it essential for each child to have a 46" tele in its bedroom? Is the fact that orange is the new “in colour” sufficient reason to have a new kitchen when the current one is only five years old? maybe if the dog wasn’t allowed on the setee it wouldn’t need replacing?

The same collective action will benefit hauliers if only they would wake up. If the hauliers took more care to avoid unproductive mileage, half empty vehicle movements, charged demurrage automatically at a punitive rate, refused to accept goods unless packaged in a manner suitable for securing in the vehicle, but above all only carried traffic which provided a profit without any reliance upon backloading and spent a little less time and money designing a new livery for the fleet, then their profitability would improve. But all the time they attempt to do their competitors out of business by adopting ludicrous schemes such as investing in, for example double deck trailers, with the potential to carry up to 52 pallets and then GIVE their customer the financial benefit of the increased productivity by charging the same rate as they had for 26 pallets or scant extra, then nothing will change. Instead they seek to maintain the status quo by operating local wage cartels.

Bring on it all grinding to a halt.

In the past I was never involved with the union, but, I agree 110% with your post.
As Jay said, you’ve nailed it.