Just a question out of curiosity . Can you be done for any drink related offence if you are over the limit and parked say in an MSA with the keys out of the ignition. Just wondering
in a word yes
drunk in charge of a motor vehicle would be the offence i think
although i do stand to be corrected maybe possibly 
Did you just think of that whilst reading Clarky’s post? Cos I had the same thought.
I’m sure I saw someone get lifted for it on a telly programme once.
Is a MSA considered in law as a public highway 
The thought just came to me dont know why although moving it along would the same rules apply to drivers of motorhomes. What I meant originally was if the driver was asleep in bed and he had removed his tacho and was thus taking his break.
Someone asked this on the police forum and got this response
Q- How does this apply to vehicles which have sleeping facilities? With trucks the sleeping bit is in the cab, with caravanettes you can still get from the sleeping section into the drivers seat. Yet I’m sure plenty of people drink then sleep in these.
Answer - The law is no different for motorhomes or HGV drivers in cabs. They may well be able to provide a reasonable defence if they were parked up and settled for the night in a recognised parking bay on a motorway services or whatever, or in the case of an HGV driver if he had his schedule of the following days work which might show his expected departure time. Officer discretion would have to come into play regarding arrest in these circumstances.
The offence is as stated below
Sec 5(1) RTA 1988
If a person -
(a)…
(b) is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place,
after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of it in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit he is guilty of an offence .
PNLD describes ‘In Charge’ in this way:-
“There is no hard and fast rule or strict test for what constitutes ‘in charge’ for the purposes of being in charge of a vehicle whilst under the influence of drink or drugs under section 4 and being in charge of a vehicle whilst over the prescribed limit under section 5 of the 1988 Act. However, a close connection between the defendant and control of the vehicle is required. That connection may be evidenced by the defendants position in relation to the car, his actions, possession of a key which fits the ignition, his intentions as regards control of the vehicle and the position of anyone else in, at or near the vehicle.”
Sec 5(2) offers a statutory defence for ‘In Charge’
5(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1)(b) above to prove that at the time he is alleged to have committed the offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle whilst the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit .
This defence was softened in favour of the defendant in light of the Human Rights Act 1998, where it was deemed that this statutory defence was too hard to achieve. The court in the Case Law of Sheldrake v DPP in 2003 gave the folowing meaning to the statutory defence.
“It is a defence for a person charged with this offence to demonstrate from the evidence an arguable case that at the time he was alleged to have committed the offence, the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle while the proportion of alcohol in his breath blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit.”
The court later clarified
“It is not sufficient for the accused to show that, at the time of his arrest, he was so hopelessly drunk as to be incapable of driving a motor vehicle; he must show, for example, that he had handed the keys of the vehicle to someone else or that, realising that he was adversely affected by drink, he had taken a room for the night.”
In reality CPS will be very unlikely to run a Drunk in Charge unless there was reasonable likelihood that the defendant would drive while still over the limit.
The fact that the likelihood of prosecution may be fairly slim will not prevent an officer making a lawful and appropriate arrest for the purposes of prevention as well as evidence gathering.
Does this mean that the arresting officer has to be sure you were intending to drive
ROG:
Does this mean that the arresting officer has to be sure you were intending to drive
It says Officer discretion would have to come into play regarding arrest in these circumstances. If he does arrest and charge you the CPS would have to prove that you were intending to drive
there was around 12 years ago now poss a little longer a spate of the northants ecilop = police, knocking drivers up in a lay by next to the red lion pub on the A45 northampton, and bagging the drivers and a fair few was arrested in the months they was doing this for drunk whilest in charge etc, but these cases was dropped as the drivers was 1, in bed sleeping, etc,etc, but the old bill sure try"d to get convictions anyone remember this going on?
Yes you can get done
Drunk in charge because there is intention of moving the lorry if needed
From a PCSO lol
OI i know a bit of the law but not has much as a copper would
mickyblue:
i know a bit of the law but not has much as a copper would
I’ll ask a Police traffic officer over the next few days whose patrol covers the Leicster Forest East services on the M1.
I know of one instance many years ago where trafpol waited outside a truckstop in the northwest and breathalised all the truckers leaving - if positive, there were to be given a choice - go back into truckstop for X amount of hours or get nicked - cannot remember if any were over the limit
globby 480:
there was around 12 years ago now poss a little longer a spate of the northants ecilop = police, knocking drivers up in a lay by next to the red lion pub on the A45 northampton, and bagging the drivers and a fair few was arrested in the months they was doing this for drunk whilest in charge etc, but these cases was dropped as the drivers was 1, in bed sleeping, etc,etc, but the old bill sure try"d to get convictions anyone remember this going on?
Not sure but I seem to remember that the lads gave their keys to the pub Landlord before retuning to the truck ?
Yes you can get arrested, for drunk in charge.
However, the likelyhood of a conviction is very slim.
If you are on a 45minute break, then you would be knackered.
But if you were on an 11 hour break, or 24 hour rest in an msa, or parked outside a pub “With the curtains closed”, then you would be very unlikely to be convicted, But remember, the some coppers can be right tossers, and don’t know the meaning of discretion.
In Blackpool some years ago, A women was asleep in the back of her car, She was arrested for being drunk in charge.
Her defence was that she had split from a violent husband and slept in her car every night, she’d had a lot to drink because she couldn’t sleep due to the cold at night. It was accepted that she had no intention of driving and the case was thrown out.
When on the very rare occasion i have a drink while taking my rest, The first thing i do is shut the curtains. How can anyone think that you would drive a truck with the curtains closed. And i will always get back in from the passenger side.
a friend of mine was done by the police for driving to the pub, getting ratted and sleeping in the car at the pub. He had started the engine and put the heater on then fallen asleap, they obviously assumed his intention was to drive even though he was laid out on the back seat.
Yes you can get arrested for being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle, however as this is one of the hardest offences to prove at court i doubt it would go anywhere
Here. I found this.
The law is no different for motorhomes or HGV drivers in cabs. They may well be able to provide a reasonable defence if they were parked up and settled for the night in a recognised parking bay on a motorway services or whatever, or in the case of an HGV driver if he had his schedule of the following days work which might show his expected departure time. Officer discretion would have to come into play regarding arrest in these circumstances.
The offence is as stated below
Sec 5(1) RTA 1988
If a person -
(a)…
(b) is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or other public place,
after consuming so much alcohol that the proportion of it in his breath, blood or urine exceeds the prescribed limit he is guilty of an offence .PNLD describes ‘In Charge’ in this way:-
“There is no hard and fast rule or strict test for what constitutes ‘in charge’ for the purposes of being in charge of a vehicle whilst under the influence of drink or drugs under section 4 and being in charge of a vehicle whilst over the prescribed limit under section 5 of the 1988 Act. However, a close connection between the defendant and control of the vehicle is required. That connection may be evidenced by the defendants position in relation to the car, his actions, possession of a key which fits the ignition, his intentions as regards control of the vehicle and the position of anyone else in, at or near the vehicle.”Sec 5(2) offers a statutory defence for ‘In Charge’
5(2) It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1)(b) above to prove that at the time he is alleged to have committed the offence the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle whilst the proportion of alcohol in his breath, blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit .
This defence was softened in favour of the defendant in light of the Human Rights Act 1998, where it was deemed that this statutory defence was too hard to achieve. The court in the Case Law of Sheldrake v DPP in 2003 gave the folowing meaning to the statutory defence.
“It is a defence for a person charged with this offence to demonstrate from the evidence an arguable case that at the time he was alleged to have committed the offence, the circumstances were such that there was no likelihood of his driving the vehicle while the proportion of alcohol in his breath blood or urine remained likely to exceed the prescribed limit.”
The court later clarified
“It is not sufficient for the accused to show that, at the time of his arrest, he was so hopelessly drunk as to be incapable of driving a motor vehicle; he must show, for example, that he had handed the keys of the vehicle to someone else or that, realising that he was adversely affected by drink, he had taken a room for the night.”
In reality CPS will be very unlikely to run a Drunk in Charge unless there was reasonable likelihood that the defendant would drive while still over the limit.
The fact that the likelihood of prosecution may be fairly slim will not prevent an officer making a lawful and appropriate arrest for the purposes of prevention as well as evidence gathering.
I bet someone mentions the solicitor in Dover who wanted to go fishing. It belongs in MMTM I’m afraid 
Wheel Nut:
Here. I found this.
So did I, but I was quicker than you 
I found the easiest way of not getting done DON’T DRINK ON A SCHOOL DAY then you are almost 100% certain of not getting nicked !!!
One of our drivers regularly got ratted in Tangiers docks . With the curtains closed & the hand brake on he would give it full throttle & change up the box & down for hours. Scary!
ROG:
Is a MSA considered in law as a public highway
I got this from another forum: (note the case law at the bottom)
Road:
A road is defined as follows under Section 192(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 as follows:
“Any Highway and any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes…”
Generally a road stretches to the boundary fences or grass verges adjacent to it including any pavements (as stated in Worth v Brooks [1959] Crim LR 855)
If a vehicle is partly on a road and partly on some other privately owned land it can be treated as being “on the road” for the purposes of the road traffic legislation (Randell v Motor Insurer’s Bearu [1969] 1 All ER 21)
“Public Roads” which are refered to in the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 are those roads which are repairable at the public expense.
Public Place under the Road Traffic Act
In order for it to be proevn that somewhere is a “Public Place” for the purposes of road traffic offences it must be shown by the prosicution that:
Those people who are admitted to the place in question are members of the public and are admitted as such, not as members of some special or particular class of the public (eg people belonging to an exclusive club) or as a result of some special characteristic tha is not shared by the public at large, and;
Those people are so admitted with the permission, express or implied, of the owner of the land in question.
(DPP v Vivier [1991]RTR 205)
Places that have stated cases that show them to be public places are:
-
A privately-owned Caravan site open to campers (DDP v Vivier [1991] RTR 205)
-
A school playground used outside of school hours as a leisure park by members of the public (Rodger v Normand 1994 SCCR 861)
-
The “Inward Freight Immigration Lanes” at Dover Eastern Docks (DPP v Coulman [1993] RTR 230)
-
A field used in connection with an agricultural show (Paterson v Ogilvey 1957 SLT 354)
-
A Multi Storey car park (Bowman v DPP [1991] RTR 263)
A Highway
A “Highway” is a way over which the public has a right to pass and re-pass by foot, horse or vehicle, or with animals (Lang v Hindhaugh [1986] RTR 271)
Highways will include public bridleways and footpaths; they also include public bridges over which they pass. For any further definitions of a highway see Section 329 of the Highways Act 1980.