Did some double manning last week on one day due to an extra long run we had, started at 6 finished at 1am.
Had min 9hrs before starting again.
I’m being told I’ve got 2 infringements, one for not enough rest after 15 hours which is a computer error as it’s a 21hr max shift when double manning.
The other was as we were in night work hours we should have stopped at 1200.
As far as I can see the double manning rules override this rule so in my opinion I am legal but am I wrong? Thanks
Were you a passenger during that 9 hours, ie either in, or out of, the bunk?
I don’t know but I seem to remember that it was illegal to spend off duty hours in the vehicle.
@franglais or @zac_a will be along soon to put me, and you in the know. 
You most likely have an opt out of the 10 hours night worker directive so that can ignored if that is the case and most places do have an opt out in place.
As for the not enough rest we would need more info to understand what might be the issue there.
Some tacho analysis software if it isn’t set up correctly might not recognise double manning and therefore also give you infringements, but it seemed your only saying about a break or rest after 15 hours of duty. Having written that again 15 hours is the maximum duty you can have unless double manning so I’d say the software is not set up correctly to utilise double manning rules after what I previously said.
I’m assuming that you did the double-manning correctly, with both cards inserted at all times (there’s an allowance for the first hour where the second man can put his card in at any point within that hour), and cards switched over when the vehicle was stationary
I would have naturally concluded that double-manning was an exeption to the nightworking rule as it is by default an exception to so many other rules: the calculations go over a 30 hour period instead of a 24 hour period and duties are spread over 21 hours instead of 15 hours.
I think the person claiming there are infringements may not know what they are looking at, or the software is not set up properly, or there was a problem regarding the drivers ticking the correct boxes for the tacho to recognise it for what it is
Hours below
6 am start. Both cards in within 5 mins or so
Working/ driving/ poa swapping cards before 4.5 or 6 hours
1245 am cards out into rest
Hotel room
950am card in (9.05 rest)
1945 card out to rest (955 work)
Infringements are
More than 15 hours work less than 9 hours rest in
24hr
Worked more than 10hr in night work window
As far as I can see I’m legal
Otherwise you have inflicting rules 21hour shift plus 4 hour night window is impossible.
But I’m happy to be proven wrong,just wanna make sure before I argue the toss and make a fool of myself!
Not sure, but maybe the removal of the cards to stay in the hotel might have been an issue, tacho may have seen that as the end of the double manning shift at the point of ejection
Possible but if after a manual entry of rest it shouldn’t really see an issue in theory I would have thought?
Surely rest is rest whether manual entry or card in entry
Personally I would present the data to “whoever” and get them to explain in detail what is wrong with it, rather than them just reading what’s put out by the analysis software without engaging their brain
Quite possibly, (and as noted) you/the company has a workforce agreement in place exempting you from night worker rules.
(As transport workers we already have a 24hr00 to 04hr00 night instead of the 23hr to 06hr00 night of normal humans, but that isn’t enough is it?)
When in the passenger seat the first 45 mins are break, the remainder is POA under double manning rules. POA does not count as work so you could possibly be on a 21 hr shift (9 hrs rest within 30hrs day) and still do less than 10nhrs.
I think not impossible. As above you can do a long “spreadover” but have a short time actually count as work. If you could limit your time to driving only, or just 15 mins duty, plus break and POA, then it seems feasible.
I stand ready for correction.
On double manning you are allowed 9hrs rest within 30 hrs. We would have called that a 21hr spreadover, followed by a 9hr night.
The time spent in the passenger seat counts as 45min break then the remainder is POA. It isn’t actually work, assuming the passenger isn’t navigating etc.
Daily Rest cannot be taken in a moving truck. So, even if you could get around seat belt laws etc it still wouldn’t count as Rest. Daily Rest can be taken on moving boats and trains, if you have a bunk, not just a seat.
At the end of a shift, both drivers in their own bunk, vehicle stationary, they are OK to be in the truck, and call it Daily Rest.
The guidance is here if you scroll down to Mult-Manning
And here for WTD and Night Work
@spardo you’ll like this:
Under Night worker rules Night is eleven at night until six in the morning.
But for Bus drivers it is only Midnight until 5am.
And Truck drivers Midnight until 4am.
Now because we are so tough…(or have extremely generous bosses)… we can not only work longer night periods, but if we agree we can ignore the laws totally! Just write it down that we want the right to work longer and the Gov will let us.
Ain’t it grand.
All I can say to all that is, I’m glad I retired 
I don’t even know, or have completely forgotten what POA is. 
I have been asked by the Yanks to tell them what European Hours of Service are but at first he just said HOS. My reply was that as a Brit I thought that was what Americans called horses. 
Anyway I think I’ll decline to answer unless one of you understands the term and can give me chapter and verse and I’ll just copy and paste without further comment. 
When I came here and started for Gauthier I had had 15 years of own account rather than hire and reward transport so we never got to the extremes of the hours rules.
Thus one night when I refused to go and load after parking up at a routier and my freteur (dispatcher) insisted i could do it I determined to look it up when I got home. It was a complete surprise to me that I could have done it under the 15 hour spread twice a week rule which I probably had never heard of.
Nothing was said and I loaded in the morning. No regrets though I was ready for my meal and nothing was going to prise me out of that.
For your US mates a very simple idea would be all vehicles over 3’5T gross wt, and with exceptions for some local work such as waste etc.
Normally 13hr day and 11 hrs off. But a 15hr day and 9 off 3 times a week.
Max 9nhrs daily driving but 10hrs twice a week. Break of 45 min after 4hr30 drive.
60 hrs off at weekends.
Max 90hrs drive over 2 weeks.
I would not recommend anyone using that as a way to check legality, but it might do as a rule of thumb to explain things to strangers.
If they want here is a link Drivers' hours: Goods vehicles - GOV.UK
That’s brilliant mate, I’ll copy and paste the relevant bits, no need of the link they just want a general idea I think.
Must say I am surprised at the 60 hour weekend break, I thought it was 45 and linked it to my experience at Gauthiers. Sometimes if I got in at say 6 on a Friday night and was required to do an early doors delivery to Paris on Monday morning. 45 hours would take me to 3pm Sunday, but not being allowed to run on Sunday until 10pm, that was the time I would set off. 60 hours would have taken me to 6am Monday, round about my rdv time in Paris.
Sunday bans are a lunatic idea. If you think about it. Arrive Friday 6pm. Normal sleep Friday night. Normal day Saturday. Normal sleep Saturday night. Normal day Sunday, then, just when you should be getting ready for bed, you have to go up the road with a fully laden artic. I always told my friends, stay off the roads Monday mornings, there are alot of very drowsy heavy vehicle drivers on the road. I partly got round it by driving to the first services on the autoroute,about an hour and a half from home and then set the alarm and go to bed for my 45 minutes. Did me a world of good and I didn’'t need another break before Paris.
With a 60 hour break I wouldn’t have been able to start till 6am Monday. That would have put a stop to it.
On the other hand I was wrong about 2 15 hour spreads a week.
Arrgghhh. Sorry my error.
45 hrs at weekends is the minimum. My fault.
Depending on the job etc… I did a fair few half shifts on a Sunday night, followed by an 8/9hr off, but rarely a full shift starting Sun night.
(Or even 4 off because a half shift only needed a half night rest…)
Sometimes running through Les Landes on a Monday morning you could see many sets of tyres pointing skywards as those who left the frontier at 22hr00 had just got so bored with the flat straight road.
Just one correction there buddy 45 hours weekly rest is a normal weekly rest. Anything under 45 hours is a reduced rest.
But I’m sure you actually knew that.
Oops should have read the rest of the posts first
Don’t fret, I’m ,making many more errors here than you might be!
Yes 45 hrs s a weekend break but it can be reduced to 24hrs
@greendiff It seems like an analysis software issue. There are certain parameters that can be changed, such as the night working. Often this is opted out of by collective agreement and is switched off on the software. As for the double-manning, there doesn’t seem anything wrong with what you did, so perhaps the company isn’t used to drivers doing such shifts.