I have just been called into the office for using my digi-card on a driving assessment and I drive on domestic driving hours. Every driver that holds a digi-card are compelled to download it every two weeks.I have another assessment in a couple of days and the manager tells me that I cannot use the digi-card as I be causing an infringement.
You opinions most appreciated thanks
Ask this manager of yours: What is the legal basis of your argument that a driver holding a valid Driver Card, who more frequently drives out-of-scope, is committing an infringement if he uses said Driver Card?
If he struggles to answer you, help him out by asking if the answer can be found in (EC) No 561/2006 or (EU) 2020/1054 ?
If he says it is in neither of these, ask him for the Statutory Instrument Number of the legislation in which this infringement can be found.
He’s talking bollox, there is no infringement of any driving legislation for what you have described. If he means it is infringing company policy, then that is a purely internal matter, it is not a legal infringement.
Thankyou very much for your answer Zac. I am work at the moment so I am having to be quick. My workshift pre-today and post-today has been from the 3rd of september up to and including the 13th. A week ago,I have requested for o/t and was given this Sunday the 10th. I have just spoken to traffic desk to remove it. So hopefully I should be ok. I don’t know how drivers who want to change employers without causing tacho infringement (edited) get on
K27:
Thankyou very much your answer Zac. I am work at the moment so I am having to be quick. My workshift pre-today and post-today has been from the 3rd of september up to and including the 13th. A week ago,I have requested for o/t and was given this Sunday the 10th. I have just spoken to traffic desk to remove it. So hopefully I should be ok. I don’t know how drivers who want to change employers without causing tacho infringement
Depends on the firm and contacts
I start at a new firm Monday but ain’t set foot in any of their trucks yet or done any assessment,
I’ve got an ex work mate who works there and has put a word in the right ears for me , sticking his neck on the line for me .
Yes I’ve had an interview and filled an application form in aswell , but a personal recommendation goes along way .
As long as your within your hours not breaking any laws. Taking enough breaks etc.
Can’t see what the problem is.
Maybe your company are miffed at you as they have found out your planning to leave.
And are being awakrd.
edd1974:
Maybe your company are miffed at you as they have found out your planning to leave.
And are being awakrd.
That is what I was thinking. She is hiding it well,as she is relaxed about it,even though we are short staffed. I have removed all o/t requests and totalled up my basic hours and see from. My last driving assessment was 35 minutes
K27:
edd1974:
Maybe your company are miffed at you as they have found out your planning to leave.
And are being awakrd.That is what I was thinking. She is hiding it well,as she is relaxed about it,even though we are short staffed. I have removed all o/t requests and totalled up my basic hours and see from. My last driving assessment was 35 minutes
Probably your rest is more important than driving hours. 35 mins is obviously not a lot but could scupper weekly rest.
K27:
Thankyou very much for your answer Zac. I am work at the moment so I am having to be quick. My workshift pre-today and post-today has been from the 3rd of september up to and including the 13th. A week ago,I have requested for o/t and was given this Sunday the 10th. I have just spoken to traffic desk to remove it. So hopefully I should be ok. I don’t know how drivers who want to change employers without causing tacho infringement (edited) get on
I forgot to mention: if you’re driving under Domestic Rules, your driving is classed as “other work” for the purposes of “in scope” driving, ie driving that requires a tacho card. So, the only “infringements” that could be applicable are WTD/RTD infringements.
These, although technically illegal, are in practice only treated as a problem for internal management issues, (like making sure you’re not exceeding your 60 hour max and 48 hour average average over the reference period). Basically, big companies treat these “infringements” seriously, but DVSA will disregard them at the roadside, and are only interested in them when they’re doing a visit to the operators premises to look at their paperwork, which for drivers is a problem they can regard as one just for people “above my payscale”.
Zac_A:
K27:
Thankyou very much for your answer Zac. I am work at the moment so I am having to be quick. My workshift pre-today and post-today has been from the 3rd of september up to and including the 13th. A week ago,I have requested for o/t and was given this Sunday the 10th. I have just spoken to traffic desk to remove it. So hopefully I should be ok. I don’t know how drivers who want to change employers without causing tacho infringement (edited) get onI forgot to mention: if you’re driving under Domestic Rules, your driving is classed as “other work” for the purposes of “in scope” driving, ie driving that requires a tacho card. So, the only “infringements” that could be applicable are WTD/RTD infringements.
These, although technically illegal, are in practice only treated as a problem for internal management issues, (like making sure you’re not exceeding your 60 hour max and 48 hour average average over the reference period). Basically, big companies treat these “infringements” seriously, but DVSA will disregard them at the roadside, and are only interested in them when they’re doing a visit to the operators premises to look at their paperwork, which for drivers is a problem they can regard as one just for people “above my payscale”.
Good news! zac says you can’t get a driving infringement from domestic regs.
So, 35 mins driving and then domestic regs the other 6 days of the week either side would be fine?
When you drove the assessment, was it for in scope driving?
When you drive the assessment, was it on a rest day for your current employer?
If you did drive an in scope veh on your employed rest day, it would be other work, so it looks like you were impacting your employed weekly rest. That may be why they were getting upset. They had to find out from tacho analysis, rather than you telling them.
It would be an infringement not to use your card, it’s a £300 fine if stopped without your card in when it should be, plus there’s then potentially more including a trip to the TC.
But it could also be an infringement to do the assessment because of your GB domestic work pattern and this is what he could mean but said it wrong.
To drive under the EU regulations you must be within 144 from a weekly rest, you must have had 9 hours off since your last work, then you must complete at least 9 hours of rest within 24 hours of starting work and you must have a weekly rest within 144 hours from your last weekly rest. So if you’d just done say 7 days on the trott under GB domestic then you couldn’t do a assessment under the EU regulations untill you’d had at least 24 hours off, then you’d need 45 off within 144 hours after that, if you’re doing a lot of shifts on the trott as GB domestic allows, then the best way for an assessment although I’m not saying it’s that practical would be to have 3 days off and timing the assessment so that you have 24 off before the assessment and 45 after
Acorn:
When you drove the assessment, was it for in scope driving?
When you drive the assessment, was it on a rest day for your current employer?
If you did drive an in scope veh on your employed rest day, it would be other work, so it looks like you were impacting your employed weekly rest. That may be why they were getting upset. They had to find out from tacho analysis, rather than you telling them.
There’s no weekly rest requirements on GB domestic, but I think that they mean the assessment under the EU regulations wasn’t / isn’t compatible with the working pattern at his job and that is where the infringments are from
Zac_A:
K27:
Thankyou very much for your answer Zac. I am work at the moment so I am having to be quick. My workshift pre-today and post-today has been from the 3rd of september up to and including the 13th. A week ago,I have requested for o/t and was given this Sunday the 10th. I have just spoken to traffic desk to remove it. So hopefully I should be ok. I don’t know how drivers who want to change employers without causing tacho infringement (edited) get onI forgot to mention: if you’re driving under Domestic Rules, your driving is classed as “other work” for the purposes of “in scope” driving, ie driving that requires a tacho card. So, the only “infringements” that could be applicable are WTD/RTD infringements.
These, although technically illegal, are in practice only treated as a problem for internal management issues, (like making sure you’re not exceeding your 60 hour max and 48 hour average average over the reference period). Basically, big companies treat these “infringements” seriously, but DVSA will disregard them at the roadside, and are only interested in them when they’re doing a visit to the operators premises to look at their paperwork, which for drivers is a problem they can regard as one just for people “above my payscale”.
On GB domestic there’s a limit of 48 hours but that can be opted out of, there’s no 60. From what he’s written there’s a good chance he’d be classed as an occasional driver for the EU regulations so would be exempt from the RT(WT)R and just come under the 4 points of the 1998WTD like on GB domestic
stu675:
Zac_A:
K27:
Thankyou very much for your answer Zac. I am work at the moment so I am having to be quick. My workshift pre-today and post-today has been from the 3rd of september up to and including the 13th. A week ago,I have requested for o/t and was given this Sunday the 10th. I have just spoken to traffic desk to remove it. So hopefully I should be ok. I don’t know how drivers who want to change employers without causing tacho infringement (edited) get onI forgot to mention: if you’re driving under Domestic Rules, your driving is classed as “other work” for the purposes of “in scope” driving, ie driving that requires a tacho card. So, the only “infringements” that could be applicable are WTD/RTD infringements.
These, although technically illegal, are in practice only treated as a problem for internal management issues, (like making sure you’re not exceeding your 60 hour max and 48 hour average average over the reference period). Basically, big companies treat these “infringements” seriously, but DVSA will disregard them at the roadside, and are only interested in them when they’re doing a visit to the operators premises to look at their paperwork, which for drivers is a problem they can regard as one just for people “above my payscale”.
Good news! zac says you can’t get a driving infringement from domestic regs.
So, 35 mins driving and then domestic regs the other 6 days of the week either side would be fine?
I see youre spoiling for another ill-informed argument, but you have, not for the first time, completely misunderstood what I said, which was that there would not be an infringement under 561/2006 for a short assessment drive:
If you work partly under EU or AETR rules and partly under GB domestic rules during a day or a week you must:
take EU or AETR daily rest periods, as well as a weekly rest period
Also:
Driving limits
You must follow the GB domestic limit of a maximum of 10 hours driving a day.
Hence he must be getting (i) a 561/2006 mandated Reduced Weekly Rest of 24 hours minumium.
And, because Domestic rules say:
You must not be on duty for more than 11 hours in any working day he should already be getting a 561/2006 Regular Daily Rest of 11 hours minimum
So unless he’s already breaking the rules for Domestic Driving, he’ll be satisfying the rest requirements for the mixed-driving aspect.
stevieboy308:
There’s no weekly rest requirements on GB domestic,
Except that Domestic Driving rules are not exempt from WTD, which allow for a 24 hour weekly rest period and which an employee can claim against the company for at a tribunal
An employee can make a claim to an employment tribunal if their employer has not followed the law on any of the following:
rest breaks during the working day of at least 20 minutes, if the employee is expected to work more than 6 hours during the day
daily rest of 11 hours between working days
weekly rest of 24 hours any 7-day period, or 48 hours in a 14-day period
acas.org.uk/working-time-ru … y%20period
Jobs which might be exempt from the 60 limit are also listed by ACAS, and unless OP is in a job that fits one of the exemptions he’s still under the 60 hours limit
acas.org.uk/working-time-ru … 2Demployed
Having said that, I can’t emphasise enough that I personally don’t care if people want to selectively misinterpret the rules and take chances with DVSA, while running themselves ragged.
Zac_A:
stevieboy308:
There’s no weekly rest requirements on GB domestic,Except that Domestic Driving rules are not exempt from WTD, which allow for a 24 hour weekly rest period and which an employee can claim against the company for at a tribunal
An employee can make a claim to an employment tribunal if their employer has not followed the law on any of the following:
rest breaks during the working day of at least 20 minutes, if the employee is expected to work more than 6 hours during the day
daily rest of 11 hours between working days
weekly rest of 24 hours any 7-day period, or 48 hours in a 14-day periodacas.org.uk/working-time-ru … y%20period
Jobs which might be exempt from the 60 limit are also listed by ACAS, and unless OP is in a job that fits one of the exemptions he’s still under the 60 hours limit
acas.org.uk/working-time-ru … 2DemployedHaving said that, I can’t emphasise enough that I personally don’t care if people want to selectively misinterpret the rules and take chances with DVSA, while running themselves ragged.
Except only four provisions of the WTD apply to drivers under GB domestic
The 48 hour week, but it can be individually opted out of
5.6 weeks holiday
Health checks for night workers
The right to adequate rest
So like I said, there’s no weekly rest requirements for GB domestic, and I can’t emphasise enough that you’ve failed to prove me wrong
Zac_A:
stu675:
Zac_A:
K27:
Thankyou very much for your answer Zac. I am work at the moment so I am having to be quick. My workshift pre-today and post-today has been from the 3rd of september up to and including the 13th. A week ago,I have requested for o/t and was given this Sunday the 10th. I have just spoken to traffic desk to remove it. So hopefully I should be ok. I don’t know how drivers who want to change employers without causing tacho infringement (edited) get onI forgot to mention: if you’re driving under Domestic Rules, your driving is classed as “other work” for the purposes of “in scope” driving, ie driving that requires a tacho card. So, the only “infringements” that could be applicable are WTD/RTD infringements.
These, although technically illegal, are in practice only treated as a problem for internal management issues, (like making sure you’re not exceeding your 60 hour max and 48 hour average average over the reference period). Basically, big companies treat these “infringements” seriously, but DVSA will disregard them at the roadside, and are only interested in them when they’re doing a visit to the operators premises to look at their paperwork, which for drivers is a problem they can regard as one just for people “above my payscale”.
Good news! zac says you can’t get a driving infringement from domestic regs.
So, 35 mins driving and then domestic regs the other 6 days of the week either side would be fine?I see youre spoiling for another ill-informed argument, but you have, not for the first time, completely misunderstood what I said, which was that there would not be an infringement under 561/2006 for a short assessment drive:
If you work partly under EU or AETR rules and partly under GB domestic rules during a day or a week you must:
take EU or AETR daily rest periods, as well as a weekly rest periodAlso:
Driving limits
You must follow the GB domestic limit of a maximum of 10 hours driving a day.Hence he must be getting (i) a 561/2006 mandated Reduced Weekly Rest of 24 hours minumium.
And, because Domestic rules say:
You must not be on duty for more than 11 hours in any working day he should already be getting a 561/2006 Regular Daily Rest of 11 hours minimumSo unless he’s already breaking the rules for Domestic Driving, he’ll be satisfying the rest requirements for the mixed-driving aspect.
Depending on the previous GB domestic working pattern it could well be an infringement to do an assessment under the EU regulations
You’re failing to understand the weekly rest requirements or lack of under GB domestic.
If you read up on the GB domestic and the parts of the 1998 WTD that applies, then you would see if would be perfectly legal to go 10 days on the trott for example with no weekly rest, that would mean they couldn’t drive under the EU regulations untill they’d had a weekly rest period, but they could carry on working under GB domestic
You’re Aldo misunderstanding the 11 hours of duty so therefore must be getting at least 11 hours of daily rest, break isn’t included in the duty, it’s a limit of 11 hours of combined driving and other work with a maximum of 10 hours of driving within a 24 hour period, so with enough break you can easily have less than 11 or even 9 hours on rest
Acorn:
When you drove the assessment, was it for in scope driving?
When you drive the assessment, was it on a rest day for your current employer?
If you did drive an in scope veh on your employed rest day, it would be other work, so it looks like you were impacting your employed weekly rest. That may be why they were getting upset. They had to find out from tacho analysis, rather than you telling them.
I am not too sure what “scope driving” is. Besides I was on annual leave. Now I am back at work,the manager had a look at my rosta including upcoming O/T (which I have now cancelled) . But the duty values are not actual behind the wheel. I have totalled up what actual driving I did last week and what actual driving I will do. Two rest days this week
Yes I have opted out of the 48 hour. Rest day today (and Thursday) and another assessment tomorrow before I start my workshift later on. I have gone through the duty itineraries of my actual driving was last week and will be this looking at duty cards similar to the photo. I have calculated 86hrs 49 minutes of actual GB Domestic driving time
So you’re a bus driver, in that case the GB domestic rules are different to that of goods vehicles, but I’d still say what I’ve said would stand to the reason why