Hello, hope someone can help me with a potential problem.
Does jury duty count as working time in a rolling 2week window? I ask because my TM has pulled me because he says I have not had a sufficient rest over a weekend. dury duty lasted 2 weeks, prior to that I had worked Upto Saturday had Sunday off then commenced my dury duty for 2 weeks. After 2 days the judge gave us a break for 4 days saying we could go back to work if we wish. I did.
I worked Wednesday , Thursday , Friday 07.30 - 1700 and Saturday 0800 - 1200. Had Sunday off and worked Monday 07.30 - 1700. Back to court on Tuesday till Friday then dismissed. I went to work on Saturday 0800 - 1200 had Sunday off then commenced work as normal.
My TM says I should have worked 0800 - 1100 on the first Saturday is he correct in saying this cos I got a b#llicking . I say I was not working/ driving HGV , I had no tacho for the days I was in court so therefore was not working. Am I correct??
I should also point out that my company was not paying me whilst I was on dury duty and I have a certificate of earnings which I had to fill in for the court to pay me. Then my company paid me as well, to my surprise they had a re-think.
So can you advise me of who is right. Or do I need to contact VOSA or the traffic commissioner??. 
Well you certainly wasn’t able to freely dispose of your time whilst on jury service (not without risking imprisonment anyway) so I would say it could not count as rest.
I would have to agree with your TM except that I make it that your weekly rest for both weeks was 43.5 hours.
I don’t think I’d be contacting VOSA about it if I were you 
■■■. So even a court summons for civic duty counts as work?. What amount of weekly rest should I have?. Is it 60 hrs?.i keep getting confused.
optidrive:
I’m not 100% sure but I don’t see how it can be rest when you’re at the disposal of the courts and unable to freely dispose of your time, you will be compensated by the courts for loss of wages so I suppose you could say you’re being employed by them.
45 hours weekly rest or it can be reduced to no less than 24 hours every other week, compensation for a reduced weekly rest must be paid back by the end of the third week following the week in which the reduced weekly rest period was taken.
sorry I just read a link from skoowiff on this thread of rest hours and printed them off vosa website. I’m a div I know. thanks for your help. I’ll take the rogering and learn from it. Oh for just another 1/2 hour. I could have countered the offensive.
optidrive:
:oops: sorry I just read a link from skoowiff on this thread of rest hours and printed them off vosa website. I’m a div I know.
Another 1.5 hours to be precise
I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it mate, far worse things happen, and with being messed about on jury service you do have a good excuse for not getting it right
tachograph:
optidrive:
I’m not 100% sure but I don’t see how it can be rest when you’re at the disposal of the courts and unable to freely dispose of your time, you will be compensated by the courts for loss of wages so I suppose you could say you’re being employed by them.
45 hours weekly rest or it can be reduced to no less than 24 hours every other week, compensation for a reduced weekly rest must be paid back by the end of the third week following the week in which the reduced weekly rest period was taken.
Free To dispose of your time 
You are not under any instructions your employer has given you, in fact he cannot even stop you going. You are not working under their disposal, so like sickness, jury time is not counted as working time. Jury Service is purely a civic duty, not work.
Wheel Nut:
tachograph:
optidrive:
I’m not 100% sure but I don’t see how it can be rest when you’re at the disposal of the courts and unable to freely dispose of your time, you will be compensated by the courts for loss of wages so I suppose you could say you’re being employed by them.
45 hours weekly rest or it can be reduced to no less than 24 hours every other week, compensation for a reduced weekly rest must be paid back by the end of the third week following the week in which the reduced weekly rest period was taken.
Free To dispose of your time
You are not under any instructions your employer has given you, in fact he cannot even stop you going. You are not working under their disposal, so like sickness, jury time is not counted as working time. Jury Service is purely a civic duty, not work.
You cannot dispose of your time freely and you are in fact under the instructions of the courts so I fail to see how it can be rest.
However if you have a link to any information that says that jury service can be counted as rest in a weed that includes driving to EU regulations I’ll be happy to read and learn from it
Interesting question. Is there anybody capable of giving a legal response quoting the legislation relevant to this?
I await a legal response then
You’re unlikely to get a response that quotes legislation on this precise issue because I doubt there is any, it’s really a matter of interpreting the law.
I suppose you could email VOSA asking a hypothetical question but whether you’d get an answer or not is another question.
tachograph:
You’re unlikely to get a response that quotes legislation on this precise issue because I doubt there is any, it’s really a matter of interpreting the law.I suppose you could email VOSA asking a hypothetical question but whether you’d get an answer or not is another question.
I have used this as my source of information, backed up with Hampshire Police WTD Booklet.
transportsfriend.org/pdf_fil … idance.pdf
Q: How does time taken off for jury leave, union duties, disciplinary suspension etc affect the “working time” calculation?
A: The requirement to add-in notional “working time” figures only applies to statutory annual leave provided by regulation 13 of the 1998 Regulations, sick leave, maternity, paternity, adoption or parental leave (as mentioned in Section 3.6).
The prescribed notional figures do not have to be included for time off for any other reasons (such as jury leave, union duties, or disciplinary suspension).
Q: How does time taken off for jury leave, union duties, disciplinary suspension etc affect the “working time” calculation?
A: The requirement to add-in notional “working time” figures only applies to statutory annual leave, sick leave, maternity, paternity, adoption or parental leave (as mentioned in Section 3.6). The prescribed notional figures do not have to be included for time off for any other reasons (such as jury leave, union duties, or disciplinary suspension).
There you are! Now go back and kick arse!
44 Tonne Ton:
There you are! Now go back and kick arse!
Why exactly ?
Ask yourself this, if you work in a shop selling baked beans Monday and Tuesday and then drive to EU regulations Wednesday to Friday:
- Does the shop work on Monday and Tuesday count towards the 48 hour average week for the RT(WT)R ?
- Do you have to allow any notional working time towards the 48 hours week for the shop work ?
- Does the shop work count as other work for the tachograph regulations ?
Like I said in a previous post I’m not 100% sure that jury service is classed as other work though I still fail to see how it could be rest, but I certainly wouldn’t advise the op to start arguing with his boss on the basis of what Wheel Nut has quoted, whilst those regulations were quoted in good faith I don’t believe they answer the question conclusively.
The point I’m trying to make is that just because jury service doesn’t count for the RT(WT)R doesn’t necessarily mean that it can be counted as rest for the tachograph regulations.
tachograph:
The point I’m trying to make is that just because jury service doesn’t count for the RT(WT)R doesn’t necessarily mean that it can be counted as rest for the tachograph regulations.
Too right, quoting the RT(WT)R is a bit of a red herring IMO, after all POA doesn’t count as working time for the purposes of the RT(WT)R either but that certainly doesn’t mean you can count it as rest for the EU tacho rules…
I would say that jury duty almost certainly counts as other work. I have nothing to back that up though, but I would be very surprised if it could be counted as rest, after all if it did count as rest then you could do all day on jury duty and then do a night shift before going back to jury duty and still be legal…
Paul
repton:
tachograph:
The point I’m trying to make is that just because jury service doesn’t count for the RT(WT)R doesn’t necessarily mean that it can be counted as rest for the tachograph regulations.Too right, quoting the RT(WT)R is a bit of a red herring IMO, after all POA doesn’t count as working time for the purposes of the RT(WT)R either but that certainly doesn’t mean you can count it as rest for the EU tacho rules…
I would say that jury duty almost certainly counts as other work. I have nothing to back that up though, but I would be very surprised if it could be counted as rest, after all if it did count as rest then you could do all day on jury duty and then do a night shift before going back to jury duty and still be legal…
Paul
You could drive your car to Glasgow tonight to play Darts and be back in time for work tomorrow, it might not be wise, but it is not illegal.
Right I do believe I have found the legislation that would allow Jury Service to count as rest.
- This Directive shall apply to mobile workers employed by
undertakings established in a Member State, participating in
road transport activities covered by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/
85 or, failing that, by the AETR Agreement.
For the purposes of this Directive:
(a) ‘working time’ shall mean:
- in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say: – the time devoted to all road transport activities.These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.,
EC2002/15
None of which relates to Jury Service.
You are not at your work station, you are not in any way involved in “Road Transport Activities.”
Wheel Nut:
Right I do believe I have found the legislation that would allow Jury Service to count as rest.
- This Directive shall apply to mobile workers employed by
undertakings established in a Member State, participating in
road transport activities covered by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/
85 or, failing that, by the AETR Agreement.For the purposes of this Directive:
(a) ‘working time’ shall mean:
- in the case of mobile workers: the time from the beginning
to the end of work, during which the mobile
worker is at his workstation, at the disposal of the
employer and exercising his functions or activities, that
is to say: – the time devoted to all road transport activities.These activities are, in particular, the following:
(i) driving;
(ii) loading and unloading;
(iii) assisting passengers boarding and disembarking
from the vehicle;
(iv) cleaning and technical maintenance;
(v) all other work intended to ensure the safety of
the vehicle, its cargo and passengers or to fulfil
the legal or regulatory obligations directly
linked to the specific transport operation under
way, including monitoring of loading and
unloading, administrative formalities with
police, customs, immigration officers etc.,
EC2002/15None of which relates to Jury Service.
You are not at your work station, you are not in any way involved in “Road Transport Activities.”
But again you’re quoting the RT(WT)R, as I said earlier if you work in a shop (which has nothing to do with road transport activities) you don’t come under the RT(WT)R but VOSA still expect you to book it as “other work” if you drive to EU regulations in the same week.
As repton said when you book POA it’s not working time but it’s not rest either.
When you’re on jury service you are not required to comply with the RT(WT)R, no-ones disputing that, but just because you’re not required to comply with the road transport working time regulations does not necessarily mean you’re on rest.
It would be good to have a definitive answer to this question but I really don’t see how you’re going to find it in the RT(WT)R.
Wheel Nut:
repton:
tachograph:
The point I’m trying to make is that just because jury service doesn’t count for the RT(WT)R doesn’t necessarily mean that it can be counted as rest for the tachograph regulations.Too right, quoting the RT(WT)R is a bit of a red herring IMO, after all POA doesn’t count as working time for the purposes of the RT(WT)R either but that certainly doesn’t mean you can count it as rest for the EU tacho rules…
I would say that jury duty almost certainly counts as other work. I have nothing to back that up though, but I would be very surprised if it could be counted as rest, after all if it did count as rest then you could do all day on jury duty and then do a night shift before going back to jury duty and still be legal…
Paul
You could drive your car to Glasgow tonight to play Darts and be back in time for work tomorrow, it might not be wise, but it is not illegal.
True, but you would be doing it of your own free will, or to put it another way you would be “freely disposing of your time” which by coincidence is the requirement for rest
Tachograph. You only need to be able to “freely dispose of your time” if you are working under the EC legislation of 561/2006.
At the point of jury service Optidrive wasn’t at work, he was off work because he had been selected for a civic duty. I don’t think it can be any simpler and am surprised you don’t agree with the legislation I found.
As Neil always says, you will never find legislation saying what you cannot do, only what you must do or are allowed to do.
Jury service is not mentioned in 3820/85, 2002/15, 3821/85 or 561/2006 for that matter neither is darts!
I have checked GV262/3 for it and it is not there either.
Rest and other days off
The period of time unaccounted for between successive charts produced by a driver should normally be regarded as (unless there is evidence to the contrary) a rest period when drivers are able to dispose freely of their time. In the UK, drivers are not expected to account for this period, unless enforcement authorities have reason to believe that they were working. Nevertheless, on international journeys it is recommended that letters of attestation from the employer are provided for drivers travelling through other countries to cover any sick leave, annual leave and time spent driving a vehicle which is out of scope of EU/AETR rules during the preceding 28 days.
In my wildest dreams I cannot believe anyone thinks Jury Service is classed as “Work”