it’s getting worse, unless we can sneak out of the EEC quick…
content.govdelivery.com/account … ns/185988d
Doesnt actually sound like its getting worse, seems like an improvment if you ask me.
Closing the loophole that lets people do the same course 5 times is a good idea. Having road safety as compulsory is also a good idea but will in reality the bulk of the time will be spent listening to people drone on about what other drivers have done to them and telling stories.
The CPC was never going away anyway. No matter how despised it might be in the industry or the blatant proof its a waste of time and only there to raise revenue, they were never going to get rid of it. And I dont want to burst your bubble but I doubt leaving the EU will make it disappear either. You think the government is going to lose out on that income? To keep us “in uniform with the EU” will be the excuse given
The “no repeats” ruling will unfortunately stop ADR courses counting towards more than 7 hours though, as each day is classed as the same broad subject.
khdgsa:
The “no repeats” ruling will unfortunately stop ADR courses counting towards more than 7 hours though, as each day is classed as the same broad subject.
I would guess that there’ll be exceptions for courses like that.
tachograph:
khdgsa:
The “no repeats” ruling will unfortunately stop ADR courses counting towards more than 7 hours though, as each day is classed as the same broad subject.I would guess that there’ll be exceptions for courses like that.
It’s actually specifically mentioned as something they will restrict to 7hrs.
That’s a shame I use my adr to cover most of my cpc when it gets renewed
I hate to say it but these are changes the FTA and RHA have been campaigning for.
We, as professional drivers, should have a decent level of competence and understanding of the work in which we are involved. All the drivers that are moaning about CPC tend to be the ones who are also moaning about being treated in a demeaning way, made to feel second class, being paid less than we are worth etc. You can’t have it both ways, either you are a professional and need to maintain a professional standard or you are a steering wheel attendant and not worth minimum wage.
The only change that I disagree with is the reduction of creditable hours for ADR. After all, TM CPC will still count for the full 35 hours of training and that’s only covering the one basic area, the effective management of vehicles and transport operations. Though having done both I know that both the TM CPC course and ADR course cover different subjects on each day. Yes the ADR is different subjects in one specialised niche but there is still a full day on Core, then a number of days on the different classes plus packages and another full day on tanker operations. Three distinct sections which should count for 21 hours.
I see political correctness is creeping in; Why do we need “disability awareness”? Are we expected to learn sign language, talk like Mr Tumble for when we encounger retarded security staff?
I bet we’ll be doing diversity training before long, imagine that; 7 hours listening to a man with a lisp telling you how we should all fly a rainbow flag, know all about ethnic minorities and how “fabuloth” Frankie Goes to Hollywood is.
More Ale:
I see political correctness is creeping in; Why do we need “disability awareness”? Are we expected to learn sign language, talk like Mr Tumble for when we encounger retarded security staff?
I bet we’ll be doing diversity training before long, imagine that; 7 hours listening to a man with a lisp telling you how we should all fly a rainbow flag, know all about ethnic minorities and how “fabuloth” Frankie Goes to Hollywood is.
Wow. Bigoted much?
You need “disability awareness” training apparently to find out how offensive that statement is to people who are not living with disability on a daily basis, let alone those who are still trying, despite having a hell of a lot more challenges that you I would wager. And whats wrong with diversity training? We as drivers are already encountering people with different ways of life than our own. There are homosexual drivers out there, and warehouse staff. There are different ethinc backgrounds, those born in the wrong gender, those who don’t identify with a gender… There are staff all throughout the industry and the industries we work with who are different from you. Just as you have the right to hold your beliefs they have the right not to hear them.
If you can’t even see how wrong your post is, you need all the classroom help you can get before you encounter one of these slightly different, but perfectly normal people in the course of your work.
nsmith1180:
More Ale:
I see political correctness is creeping in; Why do we need “disability awareness”? Are we expected to learn sign language, talk like Mr Tumble for when we encounger retarded security staff?
I bet we’ll be doing diversity training before long, imagine that; 7 hours listening to a man with a lisp telling you how we should all fly a rainbow flag, know all about ethnic minorities and how “fabuloth” Frankie Goes to Hollywood is.Wow. Bigoted much?
You need “disability awareness” training apparently to find out how offensive that statement is to people who are not living with disability on a daily basis, let alone those who are still trying, despite having a hell of a lot more challenges that you I would wager. And whats wrong with diversity training? We as drivers are already encountering people with different ways of life than our own. There are homosexual drivers out there, and warehouse staff. There are different ethinc backgrounds, those born in the wrong gender, those who don’t identify with a gender… There are staff all throughout the industry and the industries we work with who are different from you. Just as you have the right to hold your beliefs they have the right not to hear them.
If you can’t even see how wrong your post is, you need all the classroom help you can get before you encounter one of these slightly different, but perfectly normal people in the course of your work.
Maybe MoreAle has a crystal ball? Maybe he/she realise that at no point in the future will he/she become deaf, or be in an accident resulting in physical injury? Maybe the crystal ball says none of his/her loved ones or relatives will ever need a little bit of consideration from a stranger? Maybe he/she thinks theyre somehow exempt from being just a bit considerate to others? People living with disabilities making and paying their own way, and working alongside those of us "normal" people dont want a free ticket, just a little understanding. Some may find it a waste of time to learn a little about others, well, I do hope they don`t find out about the other side of the situation too soon.
nsmith1180:
We, as professional drivers, should have a decent level of competence and understanding of the work in which we are involved. All the drivers that are moaning about CPC tend to be the ones who are also moaning about being treated in a demeaning way, made to feel second class, being paid less than we are worth etc. You can’t have it both ways, either you are a professional and need to maintain a professional standard or you are a steering wheel attendant and not worth minimum wage.
.
Let me just unpick that.
I agree that pro drivers should have a decent level of competence and understanding…ok so far.
Have I got you right here?
So if you have a dcpc you suddenly see things different and stop complaining about all the things you mention.
Why is that? did those standards improve when we all suddenly became ‘professional’ with the advent of the dcpc?
I think not.
I aint the biggest fan of the dcpc, as the majority on here were not, once over ( before they were all enlightened, persuaded brainwashed or converted…take your pick) so that in your opinion makes me a steering wheel attendant does it?.
ok, …if you say so. 
The argument by the pro dcpc contingent on here a few years ago, when experienced drivers expressed their disagreement with it was along the lines of ‘‘Just look at some of the questions asked by older drivers to see if the dcpc for them is justified or not’’ …and tbh yeh, a lot did show themselves not to know a few things about drivers hours etc.
In fact I myself have admitted many times on here that I am on a ‘need to know basis’ on hours rules.
Imo most of it is over regulated over complicated ■■■■■■■■, and I have no desire to study the more intricate parts of it, I get by on a yearly basis with no infringements, so that is good enough for me.
If I was looking to employ drivers (as I have in the past) and if a guy came to me who had done this done that etc etc, had the t.shirt, and proved by his experience to walk the walk.
Then another (with all due respect to you, and no offence) came across as you do, as a bit naive, less experienced and who embraced all the theory, and readily repeated all the official rhetoric, I know who I would take on.
A dcpc does not a good driver make. 
nsmith1180:
Wow. Bigoted much?You need “disability awareness” training apparently to find out how offensive that statement is to people who are not living with disability on a daily basis, let alone those who are still trying, despite having a hell of a lot more challenges that you I would wager. And whats wrong with diversity training? We as drivers are already encountering people with different ways of life than our own. There are homosexual drivers out there, and warehouse staff. There are different ethinc backgrounds, those born in the wrong gender, those who don’t identify with a gender… There are staff all throughout the industry and the industries we work with who are different from you. Just as you have the right to hold your beliefs they have the right not to hear them.
If you can’t even see how wrong your post is, you need all the classroom help you can get before you encounter one of these slightly different, but perfectly normal people in the course of your work.
Wow someone put Father Ted back to sleep…
Whoa… hang on a minute lads while i get some more popcorn…
You’ve got it easy-peasy in the UK. Come do the FIMO (for new drivers) or the 5 year FCO refresher here in France,
FIMO - 4 weeks intensive course
FCO - 35 hours in “one” week ( and you can’t do the same 7 hour syllabus 5 times lol )
robroy:
Let me just unpick that.
I agree that pro drivers should have a decent level of competence and understanding…ok so far.Have I got you right here?
**1)**So if you have a dcpc you suddenly see things different and stop complaining about all the things you mention.
Why is that? did those standards improve when we all suddenly became ‘professional’ with the advent of the dcpc?
I think not.2I aint the biggest fan of the dcpc, as the majority on here were not, once over ( before they were all enlightened, persuaded brainwashed or converted…take your pick) so that in your opinion makes me a steering wheel attendant does it?.
ok, …if you say so.The argument by the pro dcpc contingent on here a few years ago, when experienced drivers expressed their disagreement with it was along the lines of ‘‘Just look at some of the questions asked by older drivers to see if the dcpc for them is justified or not’’ …and tbh yeh, a lot did show themselves not to know a few things about drivers hours etc.
3In fact I myself have admitted many times on here that I am on a ‘need to know basis’ on hours rules.
Imo most of it is over regulated over complicated ■■■■■■■■, and I have no desire to study the more intricate parts of it, I get by on a yearly basis with no infringements, so that is good enough for me.4If I was looking to employ drivers (as I have in the past) and if a guy came to me who had done this done that etc etc, had the t.shirt, and proved by his experience to walk the walk.
Then another (with all due respect to you, and no offence) came across as you do, as a bit naive, less experienced and who embraced all the theory, and readily repeated all the official rhetoric, I know who I would take on.
A dcpc does not a good driver make.
1) No. The system is still flawed but the changes they are proposing to make will bring it closer to a situation where DCPC does mean a better driver. The first change they really need to make is to make DCPC pass/fail rather than attendance only, after all what is the point of sending your driver on a course when you cant check he has actually learned anything.
2) Your expressed lack of desire to develop as a driver with a professional approach to complying with the regulations makes you a steering wheel attendant. Your lack of love for DCPC just makes you human, a scared of change, nervous of being proved wrong human, but a human none the less.
3) I agree, drivers hours and the Working Time (Road Transport) Regulations are overly complex. It is ridiculous that a driver in one truck could conceivably find himself adhering to three different sets of rules over the course of a week. No one is suggesting though that you have to spend 35 hours over 5 years studying it, even now! A switched on driver or TM will use DCPC to develop, not to beat a subject to death. Take a look at my DCPC journey.
As of yesterday I had completed:
Module 2 and 4 to get my initial DCPC.
Norbert’s DCPC days 1,2 and 3 almost straight off because they wanted all drivers singing from the same hymn sheet. That was IIRC day 1 on drivers hours, and for me back then it was valuable learning, day 2 on Road worthiness, i.e. walk around checks etc. Cant remember what day 3 was on.
Then in 2015 I did two more days to finish out my 35 hours. The first was on load security and the second was another dose of Drivers Hours, because I was still getting infringements and I wanted them to stop.
That cleared me through to 2021.
Then in 2016 I did a HIAB initial course, which could have counted for a day of CPC but I didn’t pay for the CPC element because I wouldn’t have counted. I also did an ADR course which could have counted for another 3 days if I didn’t already plan to cover my next 5 days of DCPC with a Transport Managers CPC in 2017.
Yesterday the classroom part of the TM CPC finished and I completed my next 35 hours, clearing me through to 2026.
In 6.5 years of being a ‘professional driver’ I’ve actually done 98 hours of DCPC-able training and in that time I have only repeated 1 module.
4) I can understand your position, though I don’t see how I am naive. I personally think I’m a bit switched on because I have taken something I cant change and found a way to use it to my benefit. Until the courses are pass/fail there is no way to be sure a driver with a certificate of professional competence is actually a competent driver. Thats why it needs to stay and develop into something worth having rather than being scrapped because operators who don’t use the system right keep complaining that it doesn’t work.
I would also put it to you that as an experienced operator, it should be a lot easier for you to take someone who has ‘proven’ competence and give them confidence than to take your old skool, walked the walk confident chap, and fix any problems in his competence because he is more likely to have the same knee-jerk objection to the training that you are showing and not take the learning seriously.
If you have operated vehicles you should be familiar with this phrase:
"The licenced operator, UNDERTAKES to make proper arrangements so that:
:: The laws relating to driving and operation of vehicles used under this licence are observed"
Its one of the undertakings you would have signed when applying for your first and each subsiquent operators licence. DCPC is not only a way to help with that, but a government backed system to prove that you have complied. Why on earth would you think that a bad idea?
pierrot 14:
You’ve got it easy-peasy in the UK. Come do the FIMO (for new drivers) or the 5 year FCO refresher here in France,
FIMO - 4 weeks intensive course
FCO - 35 hours in “one” week ( and you can’t do the same 7 hour syllabus 5 times lol )
WOW, France in actually does something right shocker!
Ok, xenophobic comments aside, that looks to be a rather stringent application of the rules but something we should be aspiring towards. Make it something that has to be tried for and even ‘stuck in the muds’ (said with affection not scorn!) like RobRoy will start taking the scheme seriously.
nsmith1180:
pierrot 14:
You’ve got it easy-peasy in the UK. Come do the FIMO (for new drivers) or the 5 year FCO refresher here in France,
FIMO - 4 weeks intensive course
FCO - 35 hours in “one” week ( and you can’t do the same 7 hour syllabus 5 times lol )WOW, France in actually does something right shocker!
Ok, xenophobic comments aside, that looks to be a rather stringent application of the rules but something we should be aspiring towards. Make it something that has to be tried for and even ‘stuck in the muds’ (said with affection not scorn!) like RobRoy will start taking the scheme seriously.
Perrot knows much more than me, but the French FIMO/FICO has been going long before the EU/UK version, and includes practical on road driving too. And as a general rule drivers are treated with more respect there. I wouldnt suggest thats “proven cause and effect” though"! Just an observation.
nsmith1180:
robroy:
Let me just unpick that.
I agree that pro drivers should have a decent level of competence and understanding…ok so far.Have I got you right here?
**1)**So if you have a dcpc you suddenly see things different and stop complaining about all the things you mention.
Why is that? did those standards improve when we all suddenly became ‘professional’ with the advent of the dcpc?
I think not.2I aint the biggest fan of the dcpc, as the majority on here were not, once over ( before they were all enlightened, persuaded brainwashed or converted…take your pick) so that in your opinion makes me a steering wheel attendant does it?.
ok, …if you say so.The argument by the pro dcpc contingent on here a few years ago, when experienced drivers expressed their disagreement with it was along the lines of ‘‘Just look at some of the questions asked by older drivers to see if the dcpc for them is justified or not’’ …and tbh yeh, a lot did show themselves not to know a few things about drivers hours etc.
3In fact I myself have admitted many times on here that I am on a ‘need to know basis’ on hours rules.
Imo most of it is over regulated over complicated ■■■■■■■■, and I have no desire to study the more intricate parts of it, I get by on a yearly basis with no infringements, so that is good enough for me.4If I was looking to employ drivers (as I have in the past) and if a guy came to me who had done this done that etc etc, had the t.shirt, and proved by his experience to walk the walk.
Then another (with all due respect to you, and no offence) came across as you do, as a bit naive, less experienced and who embraced all the theory, and readily repeated all the official rhetoric, I know who I would take on.
A dcpc does not a good driver make.1) No. The system is still flawed but the changes they are proposing to make will bring it closer to a situation where DCPC does mean a better driver. The first change they really need to make is to make DCPC pass/fail rather than attendance only, after all what is the point of sending your driver on a course when you cant check he has actually learned anything.
2) Your expressed lack of desire to develop as a driver with a professional approach to complying with the regulations makes you a steering wheel attendant. Your lack of love for DCPC just makes you human, a scared of change, nervous of being proved wrong human, but a human none the less.
3) I agree, drivers hours and the Working Time (Road Transport) Regulations are overly complex. It is ridiculous that a driver in one truck could conceivably find himself adhering to three different sets of rules over the course of a week. No one is suggesting though that you have to spend 35 hours over 5 years studying it, even now! A switched on driver or TM will use DCPC to develop, not to beat a subject to death. Take a look at my DCPC journey.
As of yesterday I had completed:
Module 2 and 4 to get my initial DCPC.
Norbert’s DCPC days 1,2 and 3 almost straight off because they wanted all drivers singing from the same hymn sheet. That was IIRC day 1 on drivers hours, and for me back then it was valuable learning, day 2 on Road worthiness, i.e. walk around checks etc. Cant remember what day 3 was on.Then in 2015 I did two more days to finish out my 35 hours. The first was on load security and the second was another dose of Drivers Hours, because I was still getting infringements and I wanted them to stop.
That cleared me through to 2021.
Then in 2016 I did a HIAB initial course, which could have counted for a day of CPC but I didn’t pay for the CPC element because I wouldn’t have counted. I also did an ADR course which could have counted for another 3 days if I didn’t already plan to cover my next 5 days of DCPC with a Transport Managers CPC in 2017.
Yesterday the classroom part of the TM CPC finished and I completed my next 35 hours, clearing me through to 2026.
In 6.5 years of being a ‘professional driver’ I’ve actually done 98 hours of DCPC-able training and in that time I have only repeated 1 module.
4) I can understand your position, though I don’t see how I am naive. I personally think I’m a bit switched on because I have taken something I cant change and found a way to use it to my benefit. Until the courses are pass/fail there is no way to be sure a driver with a certificate of professional competence is actually a competent driver. Thats why it needs to stay and develop into something worth having rather than being scrapped because operators who don’t use the system right keep complaining that it doesn’t work.
I would also put it to you that as an experienced operator, it should be a lot easier for you to take someone who has ‘proven’ competence and give them confidence than to take your old skool, walked the walk confident chap, and fix any problems in his competence because he is more likely to have the same knee-jerk objection to the training that you are showing and not take the learning seriously.
If you have operated vehicles you should be familiar with this phrase:
"The licenced operator, UNDERTAKES to make proper arrangements so that:
:: The laws relating to driving and operation of vehicles used under this licence are observed"Its one of the undertakings you would have signed when applying for your first and each subsiquent operators licence. DCPC is not only a way to help with that, but a government backed system to prove that you have complied. Why on earth would you think that a bad idea?
pierrot 14:
You’ve got it easy-peasy in the UK. Come do the FIMO (for new drivers) or the 5 year FCO refresher here in France,
FIMO - 4 weeks intensive course
FCO - 35 hours in “one” week ( and you can’t do the same 7 hour syllabus 5 times lol )WOW, France in actually does something right shocker!
Ok, xenophobic comments aside, that looks to be a rather stringent application of the rules but something we should be aspiring towards. Make it something that has to be tried for and even ‘stuck in the muds’ (said with affection not scorn!) like RobRoy will start taking the scheme seriously.
Well thanks for calling me a steering wheel attendant and instructing me in the art of ‘‘How to ■■■■ eggs’’ your confidence and self perceived superior knowledge evidently knows no bounds.
I now feel fulfilled and enlightened by the benefit of your wisdom,… and I am now wondering how I have managed to do this job for so long.
I will get back to you for more advice on this job as soon as I get the urge to be patronised by a ■■■■ know it all, so obviously you will be at the top of my list… 
I thank you.
The DCPC is bollox It does nothing apart from tell drivers to ■■■■ eggs, 35hrs should be no more than 2-3 hrs every 5 yrs, just to cover any amended revised or new laws added to the drivers hours Regs, so it is a refresher course like other trades have so over 30hrs of mind numbing bs.why?
And why they are so bothered about someone sitting the same module 5 times i don’t know, as most bring a pillow & ear plugs anyway
tommy t:
The DCPC is bollox It does nothing apart from tell drivers to ■■■■ eggs, 35hrs should be no more than 2-3 hrs every 5 yrs, just to cover any amended revised or new laws added to the drivers hours Regs, so it is a refresher course like other trades have so over 30hrs of mind numbing bs.why?
And why they are so bothered about someone sitting the same module 5 times i don’t know, as most bring a pillow & ear plugs anyway
Isnt that what this is about: there are tick-box repeat boring lectures; there shouldnt be. There should be courses that are genuinely useful and interesting. OK, OK, maybe cloud cuckoo land to talk about what “should be”. . .We can see what is being aimed at, but youre right it aint working yet.
My first DCPC module the trainer (lorry instructor) waxed on and bloody on about how good modern lorry brakes were so no need to use engine/auxilliary brakes any more, ask that young lad in the 8 wheeler at the Bath tragedy how GTGBTS is working out for him.
It’s a handy easy day wheeze if your company pay for the course and your time to attend, but from the industry/govts point of view it ticks boxes and moves some money and tax around so no it isn’t going away.