I recently had a shift where I was the allocated ‘spare man’, I sat around and waited and after 3.40 hours a run came in that they wanted me to do, I did a manual entry when I got in the cab which is as follows…
30 minutes OW - This to cover the time spent doing the usual pre-shift paper work and I in this time I also collected some forms for the transport office.
3 hours 10 minutes POA - To cover the time I spent waiting before being allocated the run.
Is this correct? I thought it was but I have read on the forum that POA should only be used when it is known beforehand what time you will be starting work - which I didn’t (I could of sat there all shift or been give a run after 5 mins).
I did not take my first break within the first 6 hours from the start of my shift but this is OK because POA does not count towards working time, correct?
I don’t usually bother with POA but it seemed correct on this occasion.
If you are the ‘spare man’ then you are working and POA should not have been used. The time should have all been other work*
*unless you turned up and they said something along the lines of - driver X has called in sick. His shift is due to start in 3 hours. We don’t need you till then.
m1cks:
If you are the ‘spare man’ then you are working and POA should not have been used. The time should have all been other work*
*unless you turned up and they said something along the lines of - driver X has called in sick. His shift is due to start in 3 hours. We don’t need you till then.
This not correct mate.
Yes the OP did absolutely nothing wrong, In fact by recording the other work the start of the shift they avoided the mistake that lots of drivers would have made.
ROG is also correct in that many would have recorded break, and as that period was over 3 hours it could have set you up for a split daily rest should you have wanted/needed it to.
m1cks:
If you are the ‘spare man’ then you are working and POA should not have been used. The time should have all been other work*
*unless you turned up and they said something along the lines of - driver X has called in sick. His shift is due to start in 3 hours. We don’t need you till then.
This not correct mate.
Yes the OP did absolutely nothing wrong, In fact by recording the other work the start of the shift they avoided the mistake that lots of drivers would have made.
ROG is also correct in that many would have recorded break, and as that period was over 3 hours it could have set you up for a split daily rest should you have wanted/needed it to.
But the OP didn’t know in advance of how long his waiting time would be.
Legally to use POA you’re supposed to know how long you’ll be waiting but in your circumstances no-one is going to know that you didn’t know and no-one is likely to care.
What you did was fine, personally I would have booked break rather than POA but in the circumstances you’ve described it makes no difference.
MickyB666:
I did not take my first break within the first 6 hours from the start of my shift but this is OK because POA does not count towards working time, correct?
m1cks:
If you are the ‘spare man’ then you are working and POA should not have been used. The time should have all been other work
m1cks:
But the OP didn’t know in advance of how long his waiting time would be.
It’s true that to use POA legally he should know how long he’ll be waiting, but in reality no-one will ever know, apart from that he could have booked break.
Sat in a waiting room or whatever waiting for a job does not have to be other work.
I’ve booked break in that situation on several occasions and it’s perfectly legal.
Where does it state in the regulations that the advance time period has to made up of a certain number of hours minutes and seconds?
As far as I’m aware the given period does not even need to be correct!
If he has been told, " you’re the spare man, wait in the canteen until I’ve sorted xyz, and we have worked out where we are at." I would suggest that, is a given time period. Just not one measured in actual hours minutes and seconds.
The whole point of the regulations with regard to POA is that it can’t be used to abuse your total shift length. Ie you can’t indefinitely be on POA. But by recording other work for when his shift started so it therefore has to have a a definite end point too.
ROG:
Here is your guidance - Definition of the word duration is likely to be time which is defined as days hours minutes etc gov.uk/guidance/drivers-hou … time-rules
Generally speaking, a period of availability (POA) is waiting time, the duration of which is known about in advance.
Generally speaking? Whatever does that mean!
I think they should of put in a little more effort to give a clearer definition.
No, the driver doesn’t have to be told anything - according to the regs the duration must be “known” before, or at the beginning of, the period in question. It doesn’t stipulate how he acquires that knowledge - it could simply be a case of being familiar with the usual operations at that particular depot.
Hmm that’s cleared that up then
To me the the guide lines are too open to interpretation, which is not good given the potential legal implications.
Those making the rules should have learned KISS… Keep It Simple Stupid!
Generally speaking, a period of availability (POA) is waiting time, the duration of which is known about in advance. Examples of what might count as a POA are accompanying a vehicle on a ferry crossing or waiting while other workers load/unload your vehicle. For mobile workers driving in a team, a POA would also include time spent sitting next to the driver while the vehicle is in motion (unless the mobile worker is taking a break or performing other work ie navigation).
Waiting while other workers load/unload your vehicle.
When I drop on a bay this could take anything from 30 minutes to 5 hours, so does that still qualify as a known duration?
Generally Speaking?
If someone said ‘Generally speaking I like to date ladies’ how many of you would be thinking that he also likes a bit of ‘man love’ - see what I mean; crap wording!
No argument with what has already been posted and I am not trying to offend anyone, my concern is that if the authorities (e.g. VOSA) interpret the rules different to myself then I could potentially leave myself open to be penalised. I think it’s a very poor effort from those who created the guidelines and the rules should be clarified to make them crystal clear as to what is actually permitted.
As the guidance says, those are examples of what might count as POA - They are certainly not saying those things will always count as POA. The legislation (not the guidance notes) is pretty specific as regards what counts as POA.
