Clarification help please WTD on a 60 hour week

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Apologies if similar question has previously been asked, I’m getting myself confused a bit on WTD. Please can someone clarify if , if say you worked / drove & the 60 hour week went something like this ,

Question 1) Firstly to to get it clear in my head on a fifteen hour spread , say 8am start to 23pm finish. Does the spread end at 23pm in total with breaks within this 23pm finish, or does it finish later because any breaks & poa don’t count ?

Monday drove 9h 2m shift 15h 2m
Tuesday " 8h 30m " 15h
Wednesday " 8h " 11h
Thursday " 8h 20m " 14h 05m
Friday " ? " ?

Question 2) Thursday having 14 hours & 05 minutes from start to finish of shift,
Would there be 55 minutes from this day (being less than fifteen hours total), or from any other day previously worked, to make more working time available for a another shift in that week ?

2

Not got me glasses on here and on me phone but. From start of shift to end with all breaks Poa drive and work can only go 15hrs.
So your 15h 2min is illegal. You can do a 15 every day as long as you have the required REST during (split) and after in a 24h period, if that makes sense. Roger or Tachograph will no doubt put you 100% right though

3

You can NOT add any unused time to another shift.

Remember… Any sift worked over 13hrs counts as part of a 15 so 13hrs and 1min is a 15 hour shift used.

4

Thanks for your reply nick , and for the confirmation of the first question. I had had different answers from different people so I really must get crystal clear answer for this whole scenario.
I am being told differently on this whole 'issue ’ by somebody in charge.

I really have to get this 100% correct.

5

bonnie lass:
Question 1) Firstly to to get it clear in my head on a fifteen hour spread , say 8am start to 23pm finish. Does the spread end at 23pm in total with breaks within this 23pm finish, or does it finish later because any breaks & poa don’t count ?

On a single manned journey the maximum spread-over from the start of the shift to the end of the shift is 15 hours exactly.

bonnie lass:
Monday drove 9h 2m shift 15h 2m
Tuesday " 8h 30m " 15h
Wednesday " 8h " 11h
Thursday " 8h 20m " 14h 05m
Friday " ? " ?

Question 2) Thursday having 14 hours & 05 minutes from start to finish of shift,
Would there be 55 minutes from this day (being less than fifteen hours total), or from any other day previously worked, to make more working time available for a another shift in that week ?

I’m not entirely sure whether you’re asking about shift lengths or the 60 hour maximum working time per week, I suspect it’s the latter but…

Any shift of more than 13 hours from the start of the shift to the end of the shift is a reduced daily rest period, this is because the daily rest period has to be completed within 24 hours from the start of the shift, so if the spread-over is more than 13 hours you cannot fit a regular 11 hour daily rest period into the 24 hour period, hence it’s a reduced daily rest period.
(You can have 3 reduced daily rest periods (maximum 15 hour shift) between weekly rest periods)

However if you’re asking about the maximum 60 hour week ?

The maximum working time per fixed week is 60 hours working time, working time does not include breaks or POA.

Assuming that the times given are the total shift times, Monday to Thursday you’ve done 54 hours 6 minutes less any breaks and POA, so if you’ve had just 45 minutes break each day that totals 51 hours 6 minutes working time.

That leaves you 8 hours 54 minutes working for the week.

Obviously if you had more than 45 minutes break and POA Monday to Thursday you will have more than 8 hours 54 minutes working time left for the week.

6

Thank you for your reply tachograph, so am I right in understanding for question 1, the shift total is inclusive of all breaks & poa
( what ever the length of shift)? .

On question 2, what I am trying to understand is Thursday shift was 14hours 05mins , with it being classed as a fifteen hour shift, could the unused 55mins of the shift be used on another day later in that same week , along with any breaks or poa time from any other day to formally the hours for a shift for example on Friday?

7

If the 60hours working week does not include break time or poa , but on a daily shift the breaks & poa are included in the spread. Am I getting the understanding of this bit correct ?

At the end of that week then, can any unused break , poa time , end of fifteen hour shift unused time ,can these be calculated up together, to make up time to use to fit another shift in legally before the end of that week please ?

8

bonnie lass:
If the 60hours working week does not include break time or poa , but on a daily shift the breaks & poa are included in the spread. Am I getting the understanding of this bit correct ?

At the end of that week then, can any unused break , poa time , end of fifteen hour shift unused time ,can these be calculated up together, to make up time to use to fit another shift in legally before the end of that week please ?

You are trying to think of too many things at once and in doing so are getting confused with WTD and tacho regs

Try taking one rule at at time and see if you have complied with that rule before going onto the next rule

Start with the important tacho regs
Daily rest
weekly rest
Driving time breaks
Daily driving time
Weekly driving time
Two weekly driving time

Now go onto WTD rules
6 hour break
total breaks for shift
total amount of work for the week

There is no rule for a 15 hours shift max but there is a rule for the amount of daily rest needed in every 24 hour period starting from the end of a daily or weekly rest (start of a new shift)

That means any shift over 13 hours or any time off between shifts of less than 11 hours will be a reduced daily rest - max 3 of those between any 2 weekly rests

You cannot ‘save up’ unused rest amounts then apply that to another shift

POA, rest and break do not have max limits

9

Thank you for your reply Rog, in what way do you mean there no rule on a fifteen hour shift please ?

If I have for example 12hours 16 minutes in between shifts, can the extra 16mins be saved and used towards another shift later in the week?

10

bonnie lass:
Thank you for your reply tachograph, so am I right in understanding for question 1, the shift total is inclusive of all breaks & poa
( what ever the length of shift)? .

Yes the shift total includes breaks and POA.

bonnie lass:
On question 2, what I am trying to understand is Thursday shift was 14hours 05mins , with it being classed as a fifteen hour shift, could the unused 55mins of the shift be used on another day later in that same week , along with any breaks or poa time from any other day to formally the hours for a shift for example on Friday?

People often refer to a reduced daily rest period as a 15 hour shift because that’s the maximum shift time you can do when having a reduced daily rest period, however it’s not really counted as 15 hours.

On Thursday you did 14 hours 5 minutes, if you had a total of 45 minute break and no POA during that shift you did 13 hours 20 minutes working time, so that’s 13 hours 20 minutes towards the 60 hour total that you’re allowed to work in a week.

When it comes to the 60 hour maximum working time in a week it’s only the actual working time that counts, to work out how many hours working time you have left for the week forget about 13s or 15s and calculate exactly how many hours working time you’ve done and deduct it from 60.

Monday drove 9h 2m shift 15h 2m
Tuesday " 8h 30m " 15h
Wednesday " 8h " 11h
Thursday " 8h 20m " 14h 05m
Friday " ? " ?

Assuming that these are the actual shift lengths, Monday to Thursday you’ve done a total of 55 hours 7 minutes, deduct any breaks and POA from that and you’re left with your total working time, now deduct that from 60 and you’re left with how many hours you can work on Friday.
Lets say you had 45 minutes break every day and did no POA, that’s 3 hours from the 55 hours 7 minutes which is 52 hours 7 minutes, so you have 7 hours 53 minutes left for Friday.

PS. In my previous post I calculated the above as 54 hours 6 minutes when it is actually 55 hours 7 minutes, sorry about that :blush:

11

bonnie lass:
Thank you for your reply Rog, in what way do you mean there no rule on a fifteen hour shift please ?

If I have for example 12hours 16 minutes in between shifts, can the extra 16mins be saved and used towards another shift later in the week?

There is no max 15 hour shift rule - that comes about as a consequence of the 9 hours off minimum rest rule within 24 hours … 24-9=15

You cannot save time off for a future shift

12

bonnie lass:
Thank you for your reply Rog, in what way do you mean there no rule on a fifteen hour shift please ?

13 or 15 hour shifts are not mentioned in the regulations they come from how much daily rest you have.

A daily rest period has to be completed within 24 hours from the start of the shift.
A regular daily rest period is 11 hours rest.
People sometimes refer to a shift with a regular daily rest period as a 13 hour shift because that’s the maximum you could do and still have a regular 11 hour rest period within 24 hours from the start of the shift (13 + 11 = 24 hours)[/list:u]
A reduced daily rest period is less than 11 hours but no less than 9 hours.
People sometimes refer to a shift with a reduced daily rest period as a 15 hour shift because that’s the maximum you could do and still have a reduced daily rest period within 24 hours from the start of the shift (15 + 9 hours rest = 24 hours)[/list:u]

Although people sometimes refer to 13 or 15 hours shifts neither of these is actually correct, if you do a 12 hour shift and have a regular daily rest period it’s not a 13 even though that’s what some people will refer to it as, it’s a 12 hour shift and if you have a 45 minute break during that shift it’s 11 hours 15 minutes working time.

bonnie lass:
If I have for example 12hours 16 minutes in between shifts, can the extra 16mins be saved and used towards another shift later in the week?

I assume you mean a shift of 12 hours 16 minutes not 12 hours 16 minutes between shifts.

If you do a shift of 12 hours 16 minutes and during that ■■■■ have a break of 45 minutes your total working time for that shift is 11 hours 31 minutes (12:16 - 00:45 = 11:31), that’s how much working time you need to calculate towards the 60 hours maximum.
You need to stop thinking about deducting from a 13 or 15 and just count how much working time you’ve done in each shift.

Lets say you do 2 shifts of 10 hours 45 minutes and in each shift you have breaks of 45 minutes, each shift is 9 hours 15 minutes working time, what you’re doing is deducting the working times from 13 when all you really need to do add them up (2 x 09:15 = 18.5 hours working time).

edit: For clarity, a shift is the time from when you start work to when you finish work.

13

A huge thank you very much tachograph, Rog & nick for your replies.

Thank you tachograph for explaining this in a clearer way for me to understand how it works. I have been through it a few times yesterday and again today, I seem to be understanding the hours a lot clearer now.

Thanks again all.