BEST 'ERGO' ?

bma.finland:

Carryfast:

cattle wagon man:
Hi folks,
Without re-reading all the previous pages to avoid photographic repitition on this debate , heres a photo and basic details of the (in)famous Fixed Head 500 engine ,- and to fuel` :unamused: :laughing: further discussion.

Taken from an early 1969 Leyland Motors`s . advertisment.

Cheers, cattle wagon man.

:smiling_imp: :laughing:

autoevolution.com/engine/lan … 40-hp.html

put it in a lorry then

What if we put ‘two’ of them joined at the crank governed to 2,500 rpm in an old Ergo Bison if we can find one.Almost 500 hp and they would probably still be lighter and use less fuel and be compliant with Euro 5/6 at least. :open_mouth: :smiling_imp: :wink: :smiley:

The cattle Wagen mann s pic is very early 500 , all later version had not oil bath air cleaners , i think its the case that some on forum are too young to understand , why would Leyland make the ERGO a bigger truck when its customers wanted NO bigger ? just tilt kabine , better visiblity and more space than LAD , in 500 system ONLY turbo version (510/ 511) was bad (Buffalo )and 410/411 (super-comet) , if a Leyland 500 did 250000 miles you had your moneys worthnow buy another , Leyland saytake it or leave it the tilt ram was optinal on 500 fixed head as idea was 500 000 miles then cab off en fit new engine , british fleets not want big fancy motor in 1960s , just good motor for the job , many did only so many miles then park up claim night out this explain success on Volvo F86 at 30 ton (cheaper than Leyland Beaver ) ,and F88 mainly bought for work and not for driver komfort , in Sweden it was a mystery why the F86 was not used much more also for 24 to 28 ton artic work in UK as it cost less to run than a AEC Mercury and all the rest and was fast for this weight , but uk fleet man think only of purchase price ,

PS if the TL11 was quickly introduced , it took ten years , so what is slow ? :unamused:

Gingerfold:

Newmercman:

[ZB]
Anorak:
It looks as if Leyland Motors was doomed, even before it was saddled with a loss-making car division or a poisoned shopfloor. The decision to wind down sales efforts in the European market, coupled with a tardiness in employing properly-qualified personnel in the engineering offices, was already bearing fruit with the undersized Ergo, Power Plus unreliability and badly-executed 500 series. If anything, its management in the 1970s and '80s deserves some credit for keeping it going as long as it did. Against this backdrop of 25 years of incompetence and sabotage, to replace the Ergo range with something as competitive as the T45 seems miraculous.

I said it a few pages ago, with all that was going on it was a wonder that they managed to keep the company afloat as long as they did :wink:

Yes a fascinating period to look back on. Just by considering what has been contributed on this thread it is a miracle that anything got produced at all that even worked!!

I think that there was an OHC fixed head engine produced by Leyland in the 1930s, so as Valkyrie states the idea was not new. What was new about the 500 series was that the gear train for the camshaft etc. was at the flywheel end of the engine instead of the front of the engine, something to do with fewer “nodal stresses” (whatever they are?). This is now common practice on modern engine designs.

Best Ergomatic Cabbed-Lorry Model? PART 11.Page 19.TRUCKNETUK

LEYLAND 500-SERIES FIXED HEAD HEADLESS WONDER DIESEL ENGINE,OR THERE IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.

In regard Gingerfold’s comments.Well,that grand old and true saying :“There is nothing new under the sun” :smiley: ,strikes again :slight_smile:
As far as I know,Leyland probably did make fixed cylinder head petrol engines for their motor vehicles in the 1900s and teens of the 20th Century,but by 1920 all engines probably had detachable cylinders heads.The Chief Engineer of Leyland Motors at that time was the famous J.G.Parry Thomas,who designed and masterminded Leyland’s version of a luxury motorcar that was a rival of the Rolls-Royce motorcar marque.And,by all accounts,the Leyland Eight was a superb design that at least some people thought was better than a Rolls-Royce! :exclamation: :smiley:
It’s straight eight overhead camshaft engine,with a detachable cylinder head, was originally
of 6967 cc (89 x 140 mm.) capacity,but was enlarged to 7266 cc (89 x 146 mm.) and produced 145 BHP,with an RAC HP rating of 40 HP.NOT ONLY THAT,but the eccentric-driven overhead camshaft
was driven from timing gears at the back of the engine! :exclamation: So the rear-mounted gear train for the
camshaft predated the Leyland 500-Series engine by around 38 years! :exclamation: :slight_smile:
The front end of the Leyland eight-cylinder engine’s camshaft drove the waterpump.
The expensive Leyland Eight went on show at the Motor Show of 1920 at Olympia,and was known
as THE LION OF OLYMPIA,and eighteen were made from 1920 to 1923 :slight_smile:

Leyland Eight 7.2 Litre Luxury Motorcar of 1920-1923:-The Lion Of Olympia:-

The engine of the Leyland Eight must have influenced later engine designs for Leyland lorries,
buses and motorcoaches from the late 1920s and onwards:Overhead camshaft petrol and diesel-oil
engines powered Leyland Titans,Tigers,Beavers,Octopus’s,etc.But these engines had detachable cylinder heads and the camshaft drives were at the front of the engines.

Other engines that had rear positioned camshaft drives were:-

Daimler CD6,CD6S,CD650,CD650H diesel engines for motorcoaches and buses.1945-1965.

Dennis O6 diesel engines for buses and motorcoaches,1945-1962,and lorries.

Meadows 6DC630 diesel engine for lorries,motorcoaches,buses,etc.From 1946 to 1969?

They may well be other engines that have rear positioned camshaft drives - I do know that
the Gardner 6LYT - examples of the original design - do…the later re-designed 6LYT
has a front-located camshaft drive.

And here is a very telling piece from BIGLORRYBLOG about the anything but precision-made and disasterous
Leyland 500-Series Fixed Cylinder Head Headless Wonder Diesel Engine :unamused: :laughing: :-

It’s that Leyland Buffalo moment says Biglorryblog. Let’s hear it for the fixed head engine…or not
12 July 2007
By Biglorryblog

Buffaload2.jpg Obviously the irony of this headline probably escaped the copywriter for this Leyland Buffalo 2 ad from 1979. Good truck better? Let’s face it, given all the problems Buffalo had with the famous (make that infamous) fixed-head 500 engine it probably couldn’t have got any worse! No doubt operators rushed to buy the Buffalo with the TL11, which I think was based old Leyland 680 six-pot (though no doubt my trusty BLB army will tell me if I’m wrong).

The late, and sadly-missed Graham Montgomerie (ex-engineering editor of Commercial Motor) once told me that as a young Leyland technician one of his jobs was to find out why the fixed-head engine kept seizing up. So they took a bunch of engines into the test lab and tried to get them to mis-behave. Only to everyone’s amazement they all ran perfectly. It wasn’t until later that Graham realised that the engines they’d been given were effectively ‘blue-printed’. When they checked the tolerance on the production engines they were all over the place–hence their appalling durability. I certainly remember riding in a Buffalo 2 on a CM roadtest. It was the first time I’d ever been in a truck. (My back has only just recovered…)

VALKYRIE

Lilladan:
i think its the case that some on forum are too young to understand , why would Leyland make the ERGO a bigger truck when its customers wanted NO bigger ? just tilt kabine ,

That’s not exactly an accurate account of UK and European truck development history when tilt cab products along these lines were available from Leyland’s competition within less than 5 years of the ERGO’s introduction and the fact is Leyland Group’s management knew it but couldn’t do anything about it.

img.fotocommunity.com/photos/14751164.jpg

Valkyrie the Gardner 6LYT with rear mounbed gear train was designed by a former Leyland engineer who was part of the 500 engine series development team. Sorry I don’t remember his name but Paul Gardner will know who it was.

Just as Leyland had Parry-Thomas then AEC also had Laurence Pomeroy working on engine design in the 1920s and 30s. Another revered name from that era.

Just a point about the Leyland TL11 it was a rushed development of the 0.680 and differed considerably from the other 680 based turbo-engine, viz the Leyland 690 as used in some Beaver models in 1968 / 69. We had many TL11 Buffalos at Spillers Milling and they were generally OK and much more reliable than the fixed head Buffalos they replaced.

The 1930s Leyland Lynx petrol truck was fixed head , and no good ! but Leyland in the 1920s had tag axel 6x2 wis single wheel on tag , Pat Kennett made some of that 1968 Scania had stepp inside Kabine out of snow , LAD had in 1958 for Albion and Leyland , Scania used Leyland design for ■■■■■■■■■■ chamber , Leyland had some of world best engineers , Stockholm tramways had hundereds of Leyland buss , because they were best in the world at that time , i always find fun when the big names write that Ergomatic had no left hand reversed design ect and LAD was not good for left hand ,LAD WAS SAME FOR LHD SAME DASH NO DIFFERENT , and Ergo was as much room as rhd on drivers side , Danish fleet man was same as English , dont care on looks or size , just care on price , fuel and will it last

Been reading another book on british leyand that states most of the waranty problems and costs on the ergomatic range up to 1968 were cooling issues.

This is where I use to go with my Dad at his work in the 60’s although this is a early 70’s shot outside in Rowley Road

Someone from the Hercocks thread may know this Man?

photo (5).JPG

I have found the report written in 1971 by Leyland Truck and Bus Division planning department detailing the future of AEC Southall and its truck range. I wanted to upload it onto this thread but I can’t for some reason, mainly because the file is too large.

These are the main recommendations:

  1. AEC Mercury, Marshal and AV505 engine production is phased out and discontinued by autumn 1972. Why? Because they were outselling the Leyland Lynx and Bison models. In 1970 AEC sold 2,803 Mercury / Marshals, Leyland sold 796 Lynx / Bison. Leyland also sold 3,938 Comets in 1970. It was also proposed that AEC build Lynx and Bison models in lieu of Mercury and Marshals and assemble and test fixed head 500 engines at Southall. In 1970 AEC also supplied 1,050 AV505 engines to Guy.
  2. Guy Motors plant is closed and assembly of Guy 32 tonners transferred to Southall, - 1,141 chassis in 1970.
  3. Other Guy production transferred to other Divisional plants. (1,345 medium weight chassis, 384 passenger chassis in 1970)
  4. Possible re-introduction of the V8.801 engine in September 1971.
  5. After closure of A505 engine plant at Southall (needed money spending on it) all remaining AEC engine production, that is the A760 and V8, to be transferred to Leyland.
  6. Consider fitting the high datum cab to AEC models to improve cooling and reliability.
  7. AEC to develop the new premium FPT70 range for launch in late 1973. Interestingly there is reference to a new “easy build” cab for the FPT70 to be made by Pressed Steel Fisher, but that never went ahead.

Wow- what a find. The axe of rationalisation is sharpened! FTP70 must have become the Marathon. The “easy build” cab may have been a production version of that on the 3VTG prototype. Amidst the cull of surplus ranges of products, it is odd that they should be considering more duplication. Production cost may have been the key- the Marathon would have been the premium-priced European market model, with a rough-and-ready option for the UK and the less-advanced export markets. This new cheap shed could have been used on the Crusader too- why let Motor Panels make the profit on the cab? This all gives a clue to why the 3VTG cab was built in the first place.

Can the document be hosted on some site or other, for download purposes- the AEC Gazette wants stuff:
middx.net/aec/

One thing the report does show is that how different the truck market was then. Between them Leyland. AEC, and Guy built 13,952 truck chassis in 1970. Of these 8,882 (64%) were classed as medium weights (Mercury, Marshal, Comet, Lynx, Bison and corresponding Guy models) and 5,070 (36%) were heavyweights (Mandator, Mammoth Major 8 and Mammoth Major 6, Beaver, Buffalo, and Guy Big J 32 ton tractors). I don’t think that the Octopus was in production then and Guy built a handful of eight-wheelers. AEC built 42% of the heavyweights assembled by these 3 companies. Certainly in 1971 the 32 ton max capacity tractor was not the biggest market sector - there was still a healthy demand for 24 / 26 ton artics, and the high-spec premium model was in the minority. Obviously things would alter very quickly in the next few years. Total chassis build figures for 1970, including passenger chassis, were Leyland 8,566, AEC 6,256, and Guy 2,870.

gingerfold:
I have found the report written in 1971 by Leyland Truck and Bus Division planning department detailing the future of AEC Southall and its truck range. I wanted to upload it onto this thread but I can’t for some reason, mainly because the file is too large.

These are the main recommendations:

  1. AEC Mercury, Marshal and AV505 engine production is phased out and discontinued by autumn 1972. Why? Because they were outselling the Leyland Lynx and Bison models. In 1970 AEC sold 2,803 Mercury / Marshals, Leyland sold 796 Lynx / Bison. Leyland also sold 3,938 Comets in 1970. It was also proposed that AEC build Lynx and Bison models in lieu of Mercury and Marshals and assemble and test fixed head 500 engines at Southall. In 1970 AEC also supplied 1,050 AV505 engines to Guy.
  2. Guy Motors plant is closed and assembly of Guy 32 tonners transferred to Southall, - 1,141 chassis in 1970.
  3. Other Guy production transferred to other Divisional plants. (1,345 medium weight chassis, 384 passenger chassis in 1970)
  4. Possible re-introduction of the V8.801 engine in September 1971.
  5. After closure of A505 engine plant at Southall (needed money spending on it) all remaining AEC engine production, that is the A760 and V8, to be transferred to Leyland.
  6. Consider fitting the high datum cab to AEC models to improve cooling and reliability.
  7. AEC to develop the new premium FPT70 range for launch in late 1973. Interestingly there is reference to a new “easy build” cab for the FPT70 to be made by Pressed Steel Fisher, but that never went ahead.

Another great post Graham,isn`t this another case of Leylands arrogance of trying to push onto their customers what they wanted to produce and sell rather than what the customer wanted to buy…What was the FPT70 range and are there any photos available?

The FPT70 project was the Marathon / T45 development with the Marathon being the ‘stop-gap’ model until the T45 was ready. The report states that the FPT70 was to use proprietary engines to attract Guy customers and all Guy production (built at Southall) was to end by mid-1975, which of course didn’t happen. The “easy bulld” cab from Pressed Steel Fisher of course also didn’t happen and I was told by a former senior AEC manager that because the Leyland group was locked into contractual agreements with GKN Sankey to buy a guaranteed number of ERGO cabs than the re-worked ERGO cab had to be adapted for the Marathon.

The report emphasises the desire to keep Southall open at that time because it was recognised as the only Leyland Group assembly plant close to the main ports of London (for worldwide exports), Dover, and Harwich (for Europe). Also it was relatively near to the PSF plants at Swindon and Cowley for transporting in the new cabs. Great things were expected of the FPT70 and it consistently refers to a “range” of models, so were there rigid versions, such as eight-wheelers, also being planned?

ramone:

gingerfold:
I have found the report written in 1971 by Leyland Truck and Bus Division planning department detailing the future of AEC Southall and its truck range. I wanted to upload it onto this thread but I can’t for some reason, mainly because the file is too large.

These are the main recommendations:

  1. AEC Mercury, Marshal and AV505 engine production is phased out and discontinued by autumn 1972. Why? Because they were outselling the Leyland Lynx and Bison models. In 1970 AEC sold 2,803 Mercury / Marshals, Leyland sold 796 Lynx / Bison. Leyland also sold 3,938 Comets in 1970. It was also proposed that AEC build Lynx and Bison models in lieu of Mercury and Marshals and assemble and test fixed head 500 engines at Southall. In 1970 AEC also supplied 1,050 AV505 engines to Guy.
  2. Guy Motors plant is closed and assembly of Guy 32 tonners transferred to Southall, - 1,141 chassis in 1970.
  3. Other Guy production transferred to other Divisional plants. (1,345 medium weight chassis, 384 passenger chassis in 1970)
  4. Possible re-introduction of the V8.801 engine in September 1971.
  5. After closure of A505 engine plant at Southall (needed money spending on it) all remaining AEC engine production, that is the A760 and V8, to be transferred to Leyland.
  6. Consider fitting the high datum cab to AEC models to improve cooling and reliability.
  7. AEC to develop the new premium FPT70 range for launch in late 1973. Interestingly there is reference to a new “easy build” cab for the FPT70 to be made by Pressed Steel Fisher, but that never went ahead.

Another great post Graham,isn`t this another case of Leylands arrogance of trying to push onto their customers what they wanted to produce and sell rather than what the customer wanted to buy…What was the FPT70 range and are there any photos available?

ive just read this again and cant understand what was to consider about fitting the high datum cab ,if it helped the cooling it was a no brainer but would more AECs have been sold then ,which apparently Leyland didn`t want.Also AEC engine production transfered to Leyland and AEC producing and developing the already known to be useless, fixed head 500s .I think this report spells out what Leyland were all about

ramone:
ive just read this again and cant understand what was to consider about fitting the high datum cab ,if it helped the cooling it was a no brainer but would more AECs have been sold then ,which apparently Leyland didn`t want.Also AEC engine production transfered to Leyland and AEC producing and developing the already known to be useless, fixed head 500s .I think this report spells out what Leyland were all about

I think Leyland’s strategy is sound. The AEC engines had been in production for some time, whereas the 500 series was a new design, so they would have been looking to produce it for another 20 or 30 years, in various forms. The continuation of the AEC models would have been just to satisfy that marque’s loyal customers, during which period they could be “weaned” onto Leyland products. There was no point in spending any money updating the AEC models- the sooner the group was building a single range of vehicles, with a single parts inventory, marketing campaign and other overheads, the better. They were not to know that the 500 would eventually become a lemon.

[zb]
anorak:

ramone:
ive just read this again and cant understand what was to consider about fitting the high datum cab ,if it helped the cooling it was a no brainer but would more AECs have been sold then ,which apparently Leyland didn`t want.Also AEC engine production transfered to Leyland and AEC producing and developing the already known to be useless, fixed head 500s .I think this report spells out what Leyland were all about

I think Leyland’s strategy is sound. The AEC engines had been in production for some time, whereas the 500 series was a new design, so they would have been looking to produce it for another 20 or 30 years, in various forms. The continuation of the AEC models would have been just to satisfy that marque’s loyal customers, during which period they could be “weaned” onto Leyland products. There was no point in spending any money updating the AEC models- the sooner the group was building a single range of vehicles, with a single parts inventory, marketing campaign and other overheads, the better. They were not to know that the 500 would eventually become a lemon.

The sad fact is AEC was in the catch 22 situation of having an engine range that had run out of development potential and no budget to move forward at the required rate,just like the rest of the Leyland Group,compared to the foreign competition it was facing .Hence the TL12’s failure in the T45.But it wouldn’t have taken a genius to have known that the 500 wasn’t fit for the purpose of it’s documented design aims.Simply because it was too small in capacity to have met the criterea of a single engine range to suit all levels of the market regardless of all it’s other production ‘issues’.AEC’s management would have known that the writing was on the wall at that point if not before.Just as Scammell had already shown and later with the T45 Leyland’s only hope was to abandon dvelopment and use of it’s in house engine production at the very least to even stand a chance of remaining competitive in the fast moving truck market.

Carryfast:

[ZB]
Anorak:

Ramone:
ive just read this again and cant understand what was to consider about fitting the high datum cab ,if it helped the cooling it was a no brainer but would more AECs have been sold then ,which apparently Leyland didn`t want.Also AEC engine production transfered to Leyland and AEC producing and developing the already known to be useless, fixed head 500s .I think this report spells out what Leyland were all about

I think Leyland’s strategy is sound. The AEC engines had been in production for some time, whereas the 500 series was a new design, so they would have been looking to produce it for another 20 or 30 years, in various forms. The continuation of the AEC models would have been just to satisfy that marque’s loyal customers, during which period they could be “weaned” onto Leyland products. There was no point in spending any money updating the AEC models- the sooner the group was building a single range of vehicles, with a single parts inventory, marketing campaign and other overheads, the better. They were not to know that the 500 would eventually become a lemon.

The sad fact is AEC was in the catch 22 situation of having an engine range that had run out of development potential and no budget to move forward at the required rate,just like the rest of the Leyland Group,compared to the foreign competition it was facing .Hence the TL12’s failure in the T45.But it wouldn’t have taken a genius to have known that the 500 wasn’t fit for the purpose of it’s documented design aims.Simply because it was too small in capacity to have met the criterea of a single engine range to suit all levels of the market regardless of all it’s other production ‘issues’.AEC’s management would have known that the writing was on the wall at that point if not before.Just as Scammell had already shown and later with the T45 Leyland’s only hope was to abandon dvelopment and use of it’s in house engine production at the very least to even stand a chance of remaining competitive in the fast moving truck market.

Best Ergomatic Cabbed-Lorry Model? PART 12.Page 20.TRUCKNETUK.1st May - MAYDAY :smiley:

LEYLAND:UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL :smiley: - BUT LEYLAND BECAME DIS-UNITED AND FELL! :exclamation: :unamused:

The objective facts were that Leyland’s policy was not sound:It was ludicrous,callous,
commercially disasterous,arrogant,criminal and woefully wrong! :exclamation: It was also tragi-comical! :exclamation:
Leyland built a very successful motor empire,and then through,politicians,mis-management
and other circumstances,the Leyland empire was destroyed! :exclamation:
Because of the following lorry,bus and motorcoach marques within the Leyland empire:-
AEC.
ALBION,
ALVIS.
AVELING-BARFORD.
BMC.
BRISTOL.
DAIMLER.
GUY.
LEYLAND.
SCAMMELL.
THORNYCROFT.

,plus vans and off road motor vehicles made by:-
AUSTIN.
AUSTIN-MORRIS.
MORRIS.
LAND-ROVER.
RANGE ROVER.

,British Leyland were the market leaders in the British commercial vehicle market,and also in
certain markets abroad.But the Leyland group’s very large shares in these markets gradually
vanished,partly because of the phasing out of Leyland marques and models!!! :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation:
Leyland was united because of all of the marques,and became dis-united as the marques were criminally dropped!!! :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: - not surprisingly Leyland’s market share dramatically dropped too!!! :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation:

A E C
Lord Donald Stokes was impressed by the marque loyalty of AEC customers,of how thousands of them
placed orders for new AEC lorries,motorcoaches,buses,etc,year after year,decade after decade,and
in fact AEC out-sold Leyland and other marques in certain sectors of the market :smiley:
When the HIGHLY REVERED AEC Marque was criminally dropped :unamused: ,first from lorries,then from motorcoaches and buses,very many AEC customers both at home and abroad were upset :imp: and went right
off Leyland :imp: and it’s motor vehicles :imp: and,partly out of protest,bought Scanias,Volvos,Fodens,
Mercedes-Benzs,etc,instead!!! :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: -And it served Leyland mis-management right in every way!!! :exclamation: :exclamation: :exclamation: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
With AEC gradually phased out,Leyland suffered a big drop in market share :unamused: It was a terriable marketing disaster! :exclamation: :unamused:
And so was the phasing out of other Leyland marques! :exclamation:
Other objective facts were that the AEC AV/AH 760 engine was new in 1964,and still had development potential left in it in the late 1970s-early 1980s at least,hence the successful
TL12-derived engine that was fitted in the Leyland-AEC Marathon and Leyland Roadtrain.
Leyland never sold enough TL12- engined Roadtrains,so it was phased out in 1982,even though
the Roadtrain-TL12 set new economy and earning records in 1981 :slight_smile:

As Ramone wisely said:Overall,it was a case of Leyland giving the customers what it wanted to give :unamused: ,AND NOT WHAT THE CUSTOMERS REALLY WANTED :smiley: :AECs,Scammells,Guys,etc :smiley: .Leyland fatally lost touch with reality :unamused: What Leyland mis-management did to British Leyland’s part of the British Commercial Vehicle Industry was CRIMINAL! :exclamation:
I’ll let the illustrious AEC marque have the last say in the form of it’s beautiful and highly revered blue,red ,white and silver triangle badge :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :-

VALKYRIE

VALKYRIE:
Other objective facts were that the AEC AV/AH 760 engine was new in 1964,and still had development potential left in it in the late 1970s-early 1980s at least,hence the successful
TL12-derived engine that was fitted in the Leyland-AEC Marathon and Leyland Roadtrain.
Leyland never sold enough TL12- engined Roadtrains,so it was phased out in 1982,even though
the Roadtrain-TL12 set new economy and earning records in 1981 :slight_smile:

It’s easy to let your heart rule your head having the luxury of not being in the situation of the Leyland Divisions’ managents at the time.Scammell obviouly didn’t see it that way having decided that outsourcing it’s engines,in the case of using British ( rightly ) deciding that fitting the Rolls was the best way to go,in the case of the Crusader.While the fact is the TL12 failed in the T45 because it simply just wasn’t good enough considering the foreign competition ranged against it like the Volvo F12 on a like with like capacity comparison with even some customers deciding to go for the 14 Litre ■■■■■■■ option instead of the Rolls.

As the T45 showed it was simply a case of forgetting all about in house engine develpoment because the money just wasn’t there to even develop a decent cab let alone keep up in the power output arms race.While even with the help of specialist engine suppliers it was obvious that the T45 was just a fall back position to clear the debts before closing the doors and giving up completely.While the SA 400 series and the TM showed that the Brits didn’t really stand a chance anyway.Yet again showing that whatever Leyland’s failings might have been not having business sense and not knowing when to give up weren’t two of them.The fact is Leyland Group simply ran out of money to remain competitive against the foreign invasion heading our way.Added to being in a domestic market environment that was becoming ever less loyal to the domestic manufacturers. :frowning: