BEST 'ERGO' ?

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
441

VALKYRIE:
Best Ergomatic Cabbed-Lorry Model? PART 9.Page 15.TRUCKNETUK

Carryfast wrote:-
I think those who supported the idea of BMC’s change in production policy to it’s small front wheel drive models were deluded in thinking that it was a landmark design.From a driver’s and a mechanic’s point of view it was a flawed compromised idea because cars aren’t meant to steer and drive using the same wheels and accessability suffered equally

Gingerfold wrote:-

Thank you Valkyrie for the time and effort that you have put into reasearching the Leyland Motors / BMH merger-takeover fiasco. It’s a very comprehensive post.
Whatever the merits or not of frontwheel drive cars Carryfast, in 1968 the Labour Government would never have sanctioned the closure of any large BMC factories and placing 1000’s of workers into the unemployment queue.

VALKYRIE replies::-

THE LEGENDARY AND INFLUENTIAL MORRIS MINI MINOR MOTORCAR.

With respect,A,The Morris Mini Minor front wheel drive motorcar is generally recognized as a landmark design by automotive designers,motoring historians and writers and it’s status is legendary! :exclamation: :smiley:
B,Furthermore,there is no law which says a motorcar,or any other type of motor vehicle,cannot be both driven and steered via the front wheels :slight_smile: In fact most of todays motorcars are front wheel drive,and the BMC front wheel drive motorcars played a major part in the swing from conventional rear wheel drive motorcars to front wheel drive motorcars. I would say that front wheel drive has become the norm today,and rear wheel drive motorcars are in the minority.
C,I would say that front wheel drive motorcars are better roadholders,because the steering is more positive by virtue of the fact that power is transmitted to these front wheels in whatever direction that these wheels are steered. The power in a rear wheel drive motorcar travels in one direction only,giving the motorcar a tendency to travel in one direction only - on a 6x4 tractive unit it’s even more so.
D,In some respects,the engines are more accessiable in certain front wheel drive motorcars - of course transmissions and gearboxes can be hard to get at on at least some front wheel drive motorcars.But on the legendary and hugely successful Citroen Traction Avant (1934-1957),you could unbolt the engine -transmission unit from the front bulkhead to obtain great access! :exclamation: :smiley:

BMC-BMH-BRITISH LEYLAND MOTORCAR SALES.
BMC-BMH-British Leyland produced the market leading and best selling motorcars in the United Kingdom! :exclamation:
The Mini was a runaway success,the BMC 1100/1300 was the nation’s best selling motorcar from 1965-1966,and 1968-1971,the Ford Cortina was the bestseller in 1967 but BMC-BMH-British Leyland stayed ahead of Ford overall until 1977. So BMC’s decision to market advanced front wheel drive motorcars was correct! :exclamation:

JAGUAR AND BMC.

If Donald Stokes had attempted to close down BMC,which would have been totally un-realistic,they would have been major rioting in this country,the country’s economy would have been severely damaged - and Donald would have lost his job! :exclamation: :slight_smile:
Furthermore,it was not just realistic to move Jaguar down market so it could compete with Ford?! :question: :exclamation: :astonished: Huh :question: :exclamation: :astonished: Seriously,Carryfast,are you trying to wind me up? :slight_smile: Jaguar was and is an up market motorcar marque - and Sir William Lyons would NEVER have allowed Jaguar to compete down market! :exclamation: And,as I have shown,BMC-BMH-British Leyland motorcars were best sellers :smiley:

ERGOMATIC CAB,AEC 3VTG AND SCAMMELL CRUSADER.

According to the vast majority of TRUCKNETUK members who have posted on this thread,many of whom have driven Ergomatic -cabbed AEC,Leyland and Albion lorries in their careers as lorry drivers,the Ergomatic WAS a GOOD cab. But I do agree with you that a tilt-cabbed version of the Scammell Crusader ought to have been produced,and the AEC Super Mandator 3VTG also ought to have been produced :smiley:

And they are the objective facts :smiley:

VALKYRIE

Firstly I didn’t say that closing the BMC factories was the only option.What I said was that production of BMC’s front wheel drive designs should have been abandoned.Either by transfer of ‘additional’ Jaguar production to increase production capacity ( being that Jaguar was in the position of being able to sell every car it was making with orders exceeding production capacity ) and or a development of a new rear wheel drive model line to replace the Cambridge along the lines of the BMW New Class.

In none of those cases would that describe Jaguar going ‘down market’ because the New Class option would have been just that a BMC product not a Jaguar and/or the transfer of Jaguar production would have been just that higher production of Jaguars maybe with some room to lower the price as part of that.The fact is Lyons never had the flawed idea of confusing value for money competitive pricing with upmarket pricing creating snob value.To him the plan B of the ability to increase production of Jaguars using BMC’s production capacity and the ability to lower the price of his products even more would have been seen as an advantage not a disadvantage.While the plan A of a BMC competitor to the BMW New Class at a BMC price would have done a lot more for the profitability of BMC,BMH and BLMC than those front wheel drive heaps ever did or could.However assuming neither of those two options the plan C of BMC closure would probably have saved BLMC.

As for the alleged superiority of front wheel drive v rear wheel drive the fortunes of BMW and Mercedes to date v those of BMC,Rover and SAAB combined say everything you need to know being that Mercedes and BMW’s engineers aren’t generally known as being idiots by those same automotive designers,motoring historians,and writers who for some reason then contradict themselves by also supportng the ideas of flawed front wheel drive design. :confused: While both BMC and Rover wouldn’t have bothered with resorting to the desperate measure of re engineering the Landcrab and the 75 to rear wheel drive in a desperate attempt to reverse their fortunes.So yes the BMC’s front wheel drive designs were best sellers.But those sales were all about flogging a flawed design to those that either didn’t know better or who did but who couldn’t turn down the offer of a car sold at loss making suicidal price for it’s manufacturer. :unamused: :laughing:

442

kr79:
Christ carfyfast do you not realide not everyone is a petrolhead who wants to drive a big sports saloon.
People stopped buying bmc and bl cars because they were crap and in a few cases were dog ugly.
And today its pretty much only bmw and mb that offer rwd cars

The success of BMW and Mercedes to date would suggest that my view is correct.I don’t think the Mk1-Mk2 1.5-1.6 Cortina range ( or the 1.5-2.0 Litre BMW New Class ) fitted the description of ‘a big sports saloon’.However I think those did a lot more for the profitability of BMW and Ford than the fwd heaps did for BMC/BMH/BLMC. :unamused:

443

Carryfast:
Blah

Repetition. Deviation. It’s a pity the rules of this forum are not the same as those on Just a Minute. You wouldn’t last two seconds. Have you tried Hesitation?

444

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
Blah

Repetition. Deviation. It’s a pity the rules of this forum are not the same as those on Just a Minute. You wouldn’t last two seconds. Have you tried Hesitation?

I thought it was all part of the discussion which Saviem started not me concerning the BMC car side angle and it’s contribution to the eventual fate of BLMC.Which of course AEC and Leyland were a part of.Which you seemed happy enough to add to a while back.No suprise though that anything which doesn’t put the blame on the workers,instead of where it actually belongs on BMC’s management and designers who were trying to save pennies by spending/losing pounds on the orders of the bankers,wouldn’t be as acceptable to that discussion. :unamused:

445

Strange how all these car manufacturers have got it so badly wrong with their front wheel drives im suprised anyone would buy one infact anyone wanna buy my Volvo its got to go now after reading how bad a design it is

446

carryfast,
if front wheel drive is so wrong,(the mini’s rallying and circuit racing heritage not withwithstanding)
how come ford decided to go the front wheel drive route in 1977 with the fiesta? bad decision was it?
have you ever driven a powerful good handling front wheel drive car? (such as a MINI r53 cooper s? i can guarantee your v12 engined leviathon WILL NOT keep up on a really twisty road or track).so that must make the lower powered cooper s front wheel drive car the better handler then!!!

447

ramone:
Strange how all these car manufacturers have got it so badly wrong with their front wheel drives im suprised anyone would buy one infact anyone wanna buy my Volvo its got to go now after reading how bad a design it is

No thanks.I’d prefer a BMW. :smiling_imp: :laughing:

448

andrew.s:
carryfast,
if front wheel drive is so wrong,(the mini’s rallying and circuit racing heritage not withwithstanding)
how come ford decided to go the front wheel drive route in 1977 with the fiesta? bad decision was it?
have you ever driven a powerful good handling front wheel drive car? (such as a MINI r53 cooper s? i can guarantee your v12 engined leviathon WILL NOT keep up on a really twisty road or track).so that must make the lower powered cooper s front wheel drive car the better handler then!!!

:open_mouth: 2 tonnes v a skate board no chance.But comparing like with like.But I can guarantee that the Jag will get to Italy quicker on an overnight run which is what I use it for. :wink: :laughing:

youtube.com/watch?v=pFDShk_x9eY

By the way what happened to the Mini in the video. :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing:

As for Ford.The Cortina,■■■■■■,Capri and Granada v all the front wheel drive zb that came later no contest.Ford simply lost the plot in order to compete with all the other zb in it’s market sector.When the holy grail is and always was making a decent rear wheel drive car at an affordable price while still making a profit.Which is a market sector that remains open now at least until someone is bright enough to try to get back into it.Which would obviously mean a fight with the bankers.Just as what happened with BMC and Leyland.

449

Looks like another threads been ruined

450

ramone:
Looks like another threads been ruined

Not at all it’s just that the inconvenient truth,as to what contributed to the demise of Leyland Group,at least as it relates to the BMC car division angle as raised by Saviem,is out there and,contrary to the stereotypical bs,it shows that it wasn’t the workers fault. :unamused:

451

Carryfast:

ramone:
Looks like another threads been ruined

Not at all it’s just that the inconvenient truth,as to what contributed to the demise of Leyland Group,at least as it relates to the BMC car division angle as raised by Saviem,is out there and,contrary to the stereotypical bs,it shows that it wasn’t the workers fault. :unamused:

Saviem raised the issue of the truck division propping up the loss making car side.Nothing to do with front wheel drive cars that are now more popular than ever .I find myself agreeing with you that most of what they were producing were crap ,but that just like the truck side was due to lack of investment endless strikes and spineless management

452

ramone:

Carryfast:

ramone:
Looks like another threads been ruined

Not at all it’s just that the inconvenient truth,as to what contributed to the demise of Leyland Group,at least as it relates to the BMC car division angle as raised by Saviem,is out there and,contrary to the stereotypical bs,it shows that it wasn’t the workers fault. :unamused:

Saviem raised the issue of the truck division propping up the loss making car side.Mostly because of the losses incurred by the BMC division having gone for the flawed idea of front wheel drive cars.I find myself agreeing with you that most of what they were producing were crap ,but that just like the truck side was due to lack of investment and spineless management by not standing up to the bankers.

Fixed that. :wink:

You wouldn’t have got the type of production numbers which the Leyland Group were turning out by having so called ‘endless strikes’.While those strikes which there were,just like the rest of British industry,weren’t undertaken by the unions for the fun of it.Just like everyone else they had bills to pay and living standards to mauntain. :bulb:

As for front wheel drive cars being popular I think it’s more a case of the choice not being there and price ever since BMW gained the virtual monopoly of production of mid range rear wheel drive cars after Leyland,Ford and GM gave up on that sector for whatever reason.

453

If your a petrol head you may go for a BMW m3 over a focus rs for the handling and sports pedigree but most people but a run of the mill 320 over a mondeo as throwing the BMW keyrimg down looks a bit more flash then the good old blue oval when your down the pub.
Most people buy a car as it beats getting the bus to work and to get the shopping home. I’m guessing most BMW drivers wouldn’t know what wheels drive it until they are entering a hedge backwards.
The cortina then sierra was our family car in various guises for years and out sold the British leyland dross because they looked better were reasonably reliable and cheap and easy to fix when they broke not because of what wheels drove it.
Your a petrol head fair enough but not everyone is.

454

Carryfast:

ramone:

Carryfast:

ramone:
Looks like another threads been ruined

Not at all it’s just that the inconvenient truth,as to what contributed to the demise of Leyland Group,at least as it relates to the BMC car division angle as raised by Saviem,is out there and,contrary to the stereotypical bs,it shows that it wasn’t the workers fault. :unamused:

Saviem raised the issue of the truck division propping up the loss making car side.Mostly because of the losses incurred by the BMC division having gone for the flawed idea of front wheel drive cars.I find myself agreeing with you that most of what they were producing were crap ,but that just like the truck side was due to lack of investment and spineless management by not standing up to the bankers.

Fixed that. :wink:

You wouldn’t have got the type of production numbers which the Leyland Group were turning out by having so called ‘endless strikes’.While those strikes which there were,just like the rest of British industry,weren’t undertaken by the unions for the fun of it.Just like everyone else they had bills to pay and living standards to mauntain. :bulb:

As for front wheel drive cars being popular I think it’s more a case of the choice not being there and price ever since BMW gained the virtual monopoly of production of mid range rear wheel drive cars after Leyland,Ford and GM gave up on that sector for whatever reason.

i think you ought to check up on the waiting time quoted in the `70s for new vehicles ,another
reason why the foreigners got a foothold in the door with quick delivery times

455

Hey, I heard of long delivery times in GB for British marques,but they always could deliver quick outside the UK. Which policy was there behind. Maybe the closed marked,so you had to buy them before the continentals came. And hadn’t to develop with a closed market.
Look at Italy before opening the marked for other,Fiat stayed what they were building for years,you had to buy it thats all. After opening the market if you first started and needed a licence,Ok you can have one after you buyed a Fiat OK my friend.
But soon after,Fiat had to hurry to develop otherways it could be all Scannies and F89’s and Maggies on the motorway.
The Spanish market was something else,if you could afford it you could buy what you wanted at a high rate of import taxe. Or marques of friendly countries.
And have the Sweeds not hold the other outside with their cab security policy, haven’t they.But before that it was most Leylands which were on the heavy side of transport.

Touch glasses.

Cheers Eric

Kopie van Cellule I.jpg
Kopie van Cellule I.jpg1102×755 238 KB

456

I know in the Gardner thread there was quotes of over a year for erf foden and atkinsons especially with a Gardner engine so I’m guessing leyland group were about the same

457

Carryfast:
You wouldn’t have got the type of production numbers which the Leyland Group were turning out by having so called ‘endless strikes’.While those strikes which there were,just like the rest of British industry,weren’t undertaken by the unions for the fun of it.

One strike is too many. Assembly workers were paid almost as much as a skilled man, for a completely unskilled job. Their work was poor- read the previous posts by those who have actual knowledge, that say the Marathon was a perfectly competitive design, spoiled by poor build quality. Still they still held the vehicle manufacturers to ransom. Greedy louts, they were. Their work is done by an obedient, conscientious workforce, now- in the Far East, mainly. Justice.

458

[zb]
anorak:

Carryfast:
You wouldn’t have got the type of production numbers which the Leyland Group were turning out by having so called ‘endless strikes’.While those strikes which there were,just like the rest of British industry,weren’t undertaken by the unions for the fun of it.

One strike is too many. Assembly workers were paid almost as much as a skilled man, for a completely unskilled job. Their work was poor- read the previous posts by those who have actual knowledge, that say the Marathon was a perfectly competitive design, spoiled by poor build quality. Still they still held the vehicle manufacturers to ransom. Greedy louts, they were. Their work is done by an obedient, conscientious workforce, now- in the Far East, mainly. Justice.

:open_mouth: Blimey that sounds just like the North Korean and Chinese Communist Party line on the subject.I think the transfer of manufacturing to ‘the Far East’ is all about taking advantage of the type of cheap labour economies which the British government wanted to re introduce here,just as things were in the 1920’s/30’s and which those previous generations of British workers would never accept.

However you’ve obviously never worked in a factory because if you had you’d know that anyone who can handle the grinding monotony deserves everything they can get.While the job of truck ‘assembly’ usually involves the skilled operations of fabrication and welding,sheet metal work,precision machining of components and sometimes the grinding monotony of minding many different types of machines on production batchwork.In many cases,as in my case,the same worker can be employed on doing all of those at any time as required depending on demarcation agreements reached between management and unions.Usually on the basis that the union had no objection to the lifting of such demarcation so long as the rate for the job reflected that type of flexibility.

Ironically in my case I earn’t more as a works driver than I did being stuck in the factory. :confused: :open_mouth: :wink:

Actual knowledge bs if you really think that the Marathon was that good maybe you should try to re introduce it to the market now but made by Chinese workers not Brits and make yourself a fortune. :smiling_imp: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

459

I think the rot went through British leyland top to bottom the management were just as much to blame as red Robbo.

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kr79:
I think the rot went through British leyland top to bottom the management were just as much to blame as red Robbo.

Trust me it was mostly,if not all,the bankers/bean counters that did it in holding back funding to invest in product development and to provide the managers with sufficient wage spending to retain a contented workforce.I can only remember one strike where I worked in the 5 years I was there which lasted around 1 week and a dispute involving just the trainee wage rates,of which I was one,all of which were based on the fact that our wages were agreed to based on prices as they stood when those wages were agreed to.Without keeping wages in line with such price increases it’s just economic suicide for the workforce.