robert1952:
Here’s one to please most tastes and it did M/E with an Astran subbie. I was parked next to it in the docks at Tangiers in 2000 and the driver, John Allen, talked me through it. It was a 142 with LHD, an Esteppe roof and a 13-speed Fuller 'box. That’d do me! (I’d want a straight-frame tilt, though!)Robert
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All we need to find now is a 6x4 rigid 140 or 141 with the same box conversion and RHD because I prefer the left hand gear shift,not keen on artics,and my back is no good for keeping on digging a 6x2 out of the sand…
Funny about LHD/RHD. My first trips abroad were RHD. You’re on the wrong side of the road, but everything is where you expect it to be. As probably with most of us, the first time I drove an LHD truck, I positioned it all wrong on the road. Not too bad abroad, you just keep going in the ditch at first!
Must have been different getting used to driving LHD in England - half of your truck is in the wrong lane!
I met up with an old school pal in about '78. His wife was American, and, like me she had found it difficult at first to convert to driving on ‘the wrong side of the road’.
My friend however, was a great cricketer and rugby player. He had what I would call almost perfect hand/eye coordination. He simply didn’t understand the problem. They’d hired an RV to tour the states and he’d immediately felt at home in the ‘mirror image’ driving situation. Lucky man.
I did adjust (fatal not to in Saudi!) and if we go on holiday to the states now I don’t worry about hiring a car.
Dirty Dan:
Here is one for NMM evan got the robsondrive,makes it almoste good as a dubbledrive!
Danne
It’s a thing of beauty Dan, you know what, a Robson drive with a lift axle would possibly be the best set up to get out of a deep hole, lift the tag, put something under the tyres, drop the tag, engage the Robson drive and away you go.
John West:
Funny about LHD/RHD. My first trips abroad were RHD. You’re on the wrong side of the road, but everything is where you expect it to be. As probably with most of us, the first time I drove an LHD truck, I positioned it all wrong on the road. Not too bad abroad, you just keep going in the ditch at first!
Must have been different getting used to driving LHD in England - half of your truck is in the wrong lane!
I met up with an old school pal in about '78. His wife was American, and, like me she had found it difficult at first to convert to driving on ‘the wrong side of the road’.
My friend however, was a great cricketer and rugby player. He had what I would call almost perfect hand/eye coordination. He simply didn’t understand the problem. They’d hired an RV to tour the states and he’d immediately felt at home in the ‘mirror image’ driving situation. Lucky man.
I did adjust (fatal not to in Saudi!) and if we go on holiday to the states now I don’t worry about hiring a car.
John
I have to say, John, I did so much jumping in and out of LHD & RHD lorries and cars that it made me ambidextrous on the driving front! Another detail about the Scania 10-speed box has just occurred to me (after 20 years!). When I first drove a 142 with LHD, the first thing I noticed was how much easier that 1st/6th dog-leg shift became; the 2nd thing I noticed was that the gear pattern was almost imperceptibly raked towards the left-hand drive position. My next ‘drive’ in a RHD model confirmed my suspicions, but it made all the difference in the world. Anybody else notice that strange anomaly? Robert
Dirty Dan:
Here is one for NMM evan got the robsondrive,makes it almoste good as a dubbledrive!
Danne
It’s a thing of beauty Dan, you know what, a Robson drive with a lift axle would possibly be the best set up to get out of a deep hole, lift the tag, put something under the tyres, drop the tag, engage the Robson drive and away you go.
Look again closely at this especially 4.05 - 4.30.Chocolate teapot seems to be the right description.
I didn’t go down there till much later, so I have two questions that bears directly on this thread:
1). Was it ever absolutely necessary to run a 6x4 down to the Gulf?
2). At what point was it no longer necessary to run a 6x4?
Once the road was metalled (ie blacktop) all the way to the Gulf, it was arguably no longer necessary to run a 6x4 on the Arabia part of the route unless you were delivering off-road, which of course did happen. The road was sealed bypassing H4 at Haditha just before Destination Doha was made in '77 so the Arabian peninsula was taken care of, but when were all the Turkish roads sealed? I know that in '75 lorries were having to use a military road to Mardin (I think to avoid unrest in Syria) which I believe was unmade. Then there was Tahir. I asked an old M/E hand back in the '90s whether it was still necessary to run a 6x4 and he replied that apart from about 4 or 5 days in the year when you might encounter awful wintry whether in Turkey, it wasn’t worth the expense of carrying the extra weight and replacing worn tyres. A lot of 4x2s ran down there even before the roads were sealed, so perhaps double-drive was always a luxury. Discuss! Robert
That one looks like it’s RHD and suspiciously like 6x4 if only the camera shot had been more considerately taken a around a foot further back to be sure.That just leaves the Fuller box and conversion to a rigid.
robert1952:
I didn’t go down there till much later, so I have two questions that bears directly on this thread:
1). Was it ever absolutely necessary to run a 6x4 down to the Gulf?
2). At what point was it no longer necessary to run a 6x4?
Once the road was metalled (ie blacktop) all the way to the Gulf, it was arguably no longer necessary to run a 6x4 on the Arabia part of the route unless you were delivering off-road, which of course did happen. The road was sealed bypassing H4 at Haditha just before Destination Doha was made in '77 so the Arabian peninsula was taken care of Discuss! Robert
To be fair it probably fits under the heading of ‘Best/Iconic’ as opposed to just common.Assuming it was all tarmac before Destination Doha was made does that mean the similar desert scenes in the film to above were unnecessarily staged ?.While that obviously leaves the majority of the decade with nasty soft sand running somewhere and again the question as to Friderici’s preferred spec v its sometimes if not common 4 x 2 spec KW’s at home in Europe ?.
Hi all.I Think in relation to 6x4s we were so inexperienced that we didn’t really know what was required and went with what we were told\Heard or saw on the road.In the early\mid 70s a lot of the Turks and Irani’s had 6x4s so we perhaps were influenced by them This was ok to an extent but we were going from A to B wheras they were driving internals in their own countries so criteria was different.There were only a few Place where a 6x4 was benificial,Parts of Turkey,Imranly,rafiyaye,The old road over Tahir and the old road from Kiziltepe to Cizre,H4,Quatar to Oman and Ziajadan.Otherwise you just ‘‘got on with it’’.
I had a DAF 6x4 driving Iran\Afghan and it was the worst piece of crap ever.The Simon Int roadtrain with the boggie lift ,on the other hand was the bees knees in the Winter.
You see in North America almost nothing but 6x4s but they dont seem to be any better[perhaps worse] than the trucks up here which are all ‘bogie lift’’ and perform oustandingly,although this can possibly be attributed more to the driving standards.Mike
robert1952:
I didn’t go down there till much later, so I have two questions that bears directly on this thread:
1). Was it ever absolutely necessary to run a 6x4 down to the Gulf?
2). At what point was it no longer necessary to run a 6x4?
Once the road was metalled (ie blacktop) all the way to the Gulf, it was arguably no longer necessary to run a 6x4 on the Arabia part of the route unless you were delivering off-road, which of course did happen. The road was sealed bypassing H4 at Haditha just before Destination Doha was made in '77 so the Arabian peninsula was taken care of Discuss! Robert
To be fair it probably fits under the heading of ‘Best/Iconic’ as opposed to just common.Assuming it was all tarmac before Destination Doha was made does that mean the similar desert scenes in the film to above were unnecessarily staged ?.While that obviously leaves the majority of the decade with nasty soft sand running somewhere and again the question as to Friderici’s preferred spec v its sometimes if not common 4 x 2 spec KW’s at home in Europe ?.
No, it’s a pertinent question. Those scenes WERE staged in the sense that although the road was newly opened the team wanted to show what drivers had been doing up until then, which they did magnificently (and perfectly legitimately in my view).
I ran down there in some appalling weather and managed with a 4x2 and good diff-lock, like many others. However, I was hoping that someone with much better and earlier experience than me would come up with an answer that came from real experience. Robert
hutpik:
Hi all.I Think in relation to 6x4s we were so inexperienced that we didn’t really know what was required and went with what we were told\Heard or saw on the road.In the early\mid 70s a lot of the Turks and Irani’s had 6x4s so we perhaps were influenced by them This was ok to an extent but we were going from A to B wheras they were driving internals in their own countries so criteria was different.There were only a few Place where a 6x4 was benificial,Parts of Turkey,Imranly,rafiyaye,The old road over Tahir and the old road from Kiziltepe to Cizre,H4,Quatar to Oman and Ziajadan.Otherwise you just ‘‘got on with it’’.
I had a DAF 6x4 driving Iran\Afghan and it was the worst piece of crap ever.The Simon Int roadtrain with the boggie lift ,on the other hand was the bees knees in the Winter.
You see in North America almost nothing but 6x4s but they dont seem to be any better[perhaps worse] than the trucks up here which are all ‘bogie lift’’ and perform oustandingly,although this can possibly be attributed more to the driving standards.Mike
Thank you Hutpik! That was exactly the kind of answer I was hoping for. For readers who don’t know of Hutpik, here’s a picture of the 150 Gardner-powered machine he managed to do three trips to Kuwait in! Robert
hutpik:
Hi all.I Think in relation to 6x4s we were so inexperienced that we didn’t really know what was required and went with what we were told\Heard or saw on the road.In the early\mid 70s a lot of the Turks and Irani’s had 6x4s so we perhaps were influenced by them This was ok to an extent but we were going from A to B wheras they were driving internals in their own countries so criteria was different.There were only a few Place where a 6x4 was benificial,Parts of Turkey,Imranly,rafiyaye,The old road over Tahir and the old road from Kiziltepe to Cizre,H4,Quatar to Oman and Ziajadan.Otherwise you just ‘‘got on with it’’.
I had a DAF 6x4 driving Iran\Afghan and it was the worst piece of crap ever.The Simon Int roadtrain with the boggie lift ,on the other hand was the bees knees in the Winter.
You see in North America almost nothing but 6x4s but they dont seem to be any better[perhaps worse] than the trucks up here which are all ‘bogie lift’’ and perform oustandingly,although this can possibly be attributed more to the driving standards.Mike
It’s a contentious subject but if it’s soft and loose ground especially sand then it’s unarguable as shown above.While even the more weight on one axle v an extra axle argument falls down on the basic maths that halving the tractive effort required at the drive axle but with more than half the weight still on each is a net gain in traction even on firmer ground.While like hub reduction also reducing the load on the diff components.
hutpik:
Hi all.I Think in relation to 6x4s we were so inexperienced that we didn’t really know what was required and went with what we were told\Heard or saw on the road.In the early\mid 70s a lot of the Turks and Irani’s had 6x4s so we perhaps were influenced by them This was ok to an extent but we were going from A to B wheras they were driving internals in their own countries so criteria was different.There were only a few Place where a 6x4 was benificial,Parts of Turkey,Imranly,rafiyaye,The old road over Tahir and the old road from Kiziltepe to Cizre,H4,Quatar to Oman and Ziajadan.Otherwise you just ‘‘got on with it’’.
I had a DAF 6x4 driving Iran\Afghan and it was the worst piece of crap ever.The Simon Int roadtrain with the boggie lift ,on the other hand was the bees knees in the Winter.
You see in North America almost nothing but 6x4s but they dont seem to be any better[perhaps worse] than the trucks up here which are all ‘bogie lift’’ and perform oustandingly,although this can possibly be attributed more to the driving standards.Mike
It’s a contentious subject but if it’s soft and loose ground especially sand then it’s unarguable as shown above.While even the more weight on one axle v an extra axle argument falls down on the basic maths that halving the tractive effort required at the drive axle but with more than half the weight still on each is a net gain in traction even on firmer ground.While like hub reduction also reducing the load on the diff components.
No, CF, Hutpik didn’t use the word ‘unarguable’, he used the word ‘benificial’, having carefully chosen his words to avoid absolutes. I would suggest that this comes from the wisdom of knowing more about it than we do. And bear in mind that I asked a very specific question about double-drive necessity on the M/E run, not an endless exploration of the merits and demerits which have already been discussed ad infinitum on this forum with you included in them! Robert
robert1952:
No, CF, Hutpik didn’t use the word ‘unarguable’, he used the word ‘benificial’, having carefully chosen his words to avoid absolutes. I would suggest that this comes from the wisdom of knowing more about it than we do. And bear in mind that I asked a very specific question about double-drive necessity on the M/E run, not an endless exploration of the merits and demerits which have already been discussed ad infinitum on this forum with you included in them! Robert
From an engineering and therefore ‘use’ perspective ‘Unarguably beneficial’. IE soft loose earth,sand,or snow beneath the wheels means that putting more weight on the axle ain’t an option like it might be on firm but just slippery ground.While less axle weight being applied to dodgy ground,combined with the shared tractive effort of twice as many drive axles,means better.It also means that if one drive axle has sunk into soft ground the other is still there doing something.While as I said the maths says that doubling the drive axles halves the tractive effort needed to be applied by each.While assuming more than half the weight,which would be on the drive of a 6x2,combined on both,means a net gain in traction all round.In addition to reducing the load on the respective diffs and with the win win of lower drive axle tyre temperatures on hot tarmac.All this type of stuff is how we won WW2 and just thank the engineers that we didn’t use many single drive axle wagons then.
Shame on you Robert.I should now be past the age where i can blush.
Certainly now,40yrs on and living up here where the climate is equal to anything i encountered in EE,USSR and ME i see that the guys up here do all we done,and more,just with bogie lifts.Of course the weight distribution is an important factor,we never really had the weight distribution over the axles in those Days.When i see the guys up here running at between 50-60t gvw,and still lifting the bogie when fully loaded,ok,not off the ground,but you really see the weight transfer for those few hundred meters to get you ‘‘over the top’’.Who gives a toss about the legality when you’re half way up a mountain in a blizzard,mr vosa is tucked up in bed.Also the Equipment here is far in advance of anything we could have imagined.Trucks,trailers,tyres,chains,everything is in a continous development to work with and deal with the climate.
This is what you see with North America,they are stuck in a 60s\70s timewarp.
When people up here watch the '‘ice road truckers or the forestry people’'on tv they look in amazement saying ‘‘why haven’t they got ‘such and such’ like we have,how can they work like that’’.
Just as a PostScript.Now we are starting to see rigid 8x4s up here with double drive whereby loaded you can lift the back drive axle thereby transferring weight a la bogielift.also at 50t gtw.It’s a new system which seems to be gaining in popularity.
hutpik:
When i see the guys up here running at between 50-60t gvw,and still lifting the bogie when fully loaded,ok,not off the ground,but you really see the weight transfer for those few hundred meters to get you ‘‘over the top’’.Who gives a toss about the legality when you’re half way up a mountain in a blizzard,mr vosa is tucked up in bed.Also the Equipment here is far in advance of anything we could have imagined.Trucks,trailers,tyres,chains,everything is in a continous development to work with and deal with the climate.
This is what you see with North America,they are stuck in a 60s\70s timewarp.
When people up here watch the '‘ice road truckers or the forestry people’'on tv they look in amazement saying ‘‘why haven’t they got ‘such and such’ like we have,how can they work like that’’.
Just as a PostScript.Now we are starting to see rigid 8x4s up here with double drive
Putting a load more weight onto an already dug in axle on ground ( soft/collapsed road surface, sand,or deep snow for example ) giving way underneath it ain’t exactly going to work it’s just going to dig itself deeper.
hutpik:
Shame on you Robert.I should now be past the age where i can blush.
Certainly now,40yrs on and living up here where the climate is equal to anything i encountered in EE,USSR and ME i see that the guys up here do all we done,and more,just with bogie lifts.Of course the weight distribution is an important factor,we never really had the weight distribution over the axles in those Days.When i see the guys up here running at between 50-60t gvw,and still lifting the bogie when fully loaded,ok,not off the ground,but you really see the weight transfer for those few hundred meters to get you ‘‘over the top’’.Who gives a toss about the legality when you’re half way up a mountain in a blizzard,mr vosa is tucked up in bed.Also the Equipment here is far in advance of anything we could have imagined.Trucks,trailers,tyres,chains,everything is in a continous development to work with and deal with the climate.
This is what you see with North America,they are stuck in a 60s\70s timewarp.
When people up here watch the '‘ice road truckers or the forestry people’'on tv they look in amazement saying ‘‘why haven’t they got ‘such and such’ like we have,how can they work like that’’.
Just as a PostScript.Now we are starting to see rigid 8x4s up here with double drive whereby loaded you can lift the back drive axle thereby transferring weight a la bogielift.also at 50t gtw.It’s a new system which seems to be gaining in popularity.
1+
so right here Mike! Listen to the man!
I have had the 6x4 on steel and air,loaded both verry good but empty both vere bad. But on air you atleast can transfer some weight for traction. If you had load both way the 6x4 is good. Then i had my best unit doing Norway,A Scana 143 on air with 3.4 wheelbase. Could lift the tag full loaded,perfect when you losse traction up some of al Big hills in that country.And when empty tag up and a good traction! So i always prefere the 6x2,always!
The whole Point CF is to transfer ‘‘enough’’ by judicious lifting of the bogie that you keep the momentum going so you '‘dont’'sink but keep enough momentum to keep rolling.If you are already sunk then you fit chains or learn to use a shovel.The bogie is used on ice when the snow starts to build up to keep going and mud and gravel when it is not too deep.
I can understand the superiority of the lifting axle, in that lifting it moves the effective centre of the bogie to the centre of the drive axle. The rear overhang is then greater so, therefore, the load over the drive axle is more than double the load on two equally-loaded axles in an equivalent double drive bogie. There is more traction than that double drive bogie as a result. I can also see that problems may surface on soft ground, on which a double drive bogie may be less inclined to sink in. The best-of-all-worlds system, of course, is the lift-axle double drive bogie described above, which brings us back to the photo of the Robson-drive 6x2 Scania which sparked this debate off in the first place.
