Berliet

[saviem]

Evening all, spardo,the whole area around Rennes was strong Willeme country. There was an operator, (whose name escapes my old brain tonight), at le Cruais, just on the crossroads on the D59/D28, who ran a few of the AEC engined, Cottard Horizon cabbed Willeme 4x2 tractor units, and another small outfit at Boisgervilly, who again was a Willeme/AEC operator. Handsome lorries were they not, and real “roulers”. Perhaps the picture was of one of these?

No, there was no Guy involvment, but lots from AEC, and of course they marketed BMCs in France as Willeme`s. When they were in dire financial problems they looked to AEC, their long time collaborator, as a saviour…but Leyland, who by then owned AEC, just shut the door!

Yet at the same time Leyland were trying to do a deal with Hotchkiss, who were themselves on the way out, and in shunning Willeme, lost the potential of a company with a major French market share, and over 400 outlets for their products.

Lovely lorry the Willeme, either the “shark nose”, or the Horizon cab, and a good one to operate! Like what you are doing, and a fascinating web site, thank you.

Cheerio for now.

[spardo]

Just had a look at an Horizon on the net and yes, that was the cab. However, now I look at it again there is only a slight resemblance to an Invincible, perhaps it was wishful thinking, I did love that cab.

Maybe it was the angle the picture was taken from that misled me. It was an artic, with a bow fronted van trailer and taken from a low position, as if the photgrapher was kneeling or crouching. I remarked to the resto owner that it was a classic photo and she immediately replied ‘yes, 1963’, as if she knew the origins of the picture, perhaps the same family.

I wish now I had asked more but she was busy on her own, apart from the chef in the kitchen, and I sensibly decided against. If I pass that way again maybe I can persuade her to bring it outside for a photo. She was out in the park when I arrived making sure everyone was parking prettily.

[michel]

A T45 Berliet dumper in Decazeville.

[zb_anorak]

Spardo:
Just had a look at an Horizon on the net and yes, that was the cab. However, now I look at it again there is only a slight resemblance to an Invincible, perhaps it was wishful thinking, I did love that cab.

Maybe it was the angle the picture was taken from that misled me. It was an artic, with a bow fronted van trailer and taken from a low position, as if the photgrapher was kneeling or crouching. I remarked to the resto owner that it was a classic photo and she immediately replied ‘yes, 1963’, as if she knew the origins of the picture, perhaps the same family.

I wish now I had asked more but she was busy on her own, apart from the chef in the kitchen, and I sensibly decided against. If I pass that way again maybe I can persuade her to bring it outside for a photo. She was out in the park when I arrived making sure everyone was parking prettily.

Just found this on the internet:

[saviem]

Evening all, fascinating photograph Anorak. Must have been taken towards the end of Willeme, as the bare cabs from Cottard`s at Bourg en Bresse, have the later “pure” AEC type grill with provision for the AEC triangle above the radiator grill. The earlier Willeme Horizon cabs had Willeme just below the windscreen, and a flat profile to the top of the grill. or The rigid at the front could be an could be a K301, and the one at the back looks like an LD201BH.

The bare cabs on the right are waiting to be fitted to chassis as they arrive along the assembly line. I understand that Willeme had to do a fair bit of “fettling” before the shells were fitted…shades of UK quality! The bonneted version of the 201, was simply the standard Horizon cab, with a bonet, but rather an ugly profile to behold!

The old Willeme works at Nanterre was far from a dark satanic mill, being quite light and airy. The high level windows cascaded light into the floor area. The multiple overhead cranes are well shown, in fact some of the larger examples were built by Wellman Cranes from Darlaston.

[zb_anorak]

Saviem:
Evening all, fascinating photograph Anorak. Must have been taken towards the end of Willeme, as the bare cabs from Cottard`s at Bourg en Bresse, have the later “pure” AEC type grill with provision for the AEC triangle above the radiator grill. The earlier Willeme Horizon cabs had Willeme just below the windscreen, and a flat profile to the top of the grill. or The rigid at the front could be an could be a K301, and the one at the back looks like an LD201BH.

The bare cabs on the right are waiting to be fitted to chassis as they arrive along the assembly line. I understand that Willeme had to do a fair bit of “fettling” before the shells were fitted…shades of UK quality! The bonneted version of the 201, was simply the standard Horizon cab, with a bonet, but rather an ugly profile to behold!

The old Willeme works at Nanterre was far from a dark satanic mill, being quite light and airy. The high level windows cascaded light into the floor area. The multiple overhead cranes are well shown, in fact some of the larger examples were built by Wellman Cranes from Darlaston.

So was all the Willeme badging ditched on these later examples? In other words, was it, in effect, an AEC takeover?

PS Yes, the factory does look like a pleasant workplace, but you can tell they did not build big volumes, with cabs just left on the floor, rather than fed to the chassis by overhead conveyor. What was the problem with the assembly of the cabs- holes not lining up, or something even more distasteful?

[spardo]

Saviem:
The bonneted version of the 201, was simply the standard Horizon cab, with a bonet, but rather an ugly profile to behold!

Funny you should that, Saviem. Just to drag the thread astray for a moment but a propos my earlier remarks about Invincibles, I saw one of the latter on the net yesterday with a bonnet. Not sure if I could, or should, copy it for here though.

By the way, following your kind remarks about my site, after reading the first page you will see why I became a fan of Renault in my later years. The best motor I ever drove in almost 50 years on the road.

[neversweat1]

Steve

[bewick]

Would this “Renault” demo we ran for a while at Bewick Transport qualify as a Berliet ? I shot it in the early eveninig sun as it’s night shift driver Edward “Dusty” Airey was filling his tacho disc in prior to setting off to Daventry.Can’t just recall what the general acceptance/performance was of this particular motor but it wasn’t very impressive against the Scanias IIRC.Cheers Bewick

[saviem]

Evening all,Dennis, biggest problem that Renault had in the UK with the big Berliet designs, was not specifying a “tall enough” rear axle ratio, to cope with the high speed running ,( 60mph plus, rather than the generally less frantic European norm.)Consequently , (unless they were schooled before driving the vehicle), most drivers “thrashed along” at max revs, and chased the performance through the gears, which gained little, except increasing fuel consumption, rather than letting her pull along the rising torque curve.

As a consequence of the incorrect specification, the TR305s for the UK, were at the top end of their rev range when blatting down the M ways of this sceptred Isle, a problem that could have been eliminated when specifying the rear axle ratio from the works. The second problem, driver education on how to drive a “Maxi Couple” engined vehicle, would not have been an easy one to overcome. I know how “brittle” I would have personally felt if I was told that I was driving the vehicle incorrectly. Driver education on a vehicle is a process of “discreet steps leading to learning”, the man has to know how to get the best from a vehicle to give him pride in what he is doing. And its the little points that need covering as well, how to tune the radio, how the top bunk folds, how the night heater works etc. The little points are vital for overall enjoyment and satisfaction.

A difficulty all too often encountered, of putting a Demonstrator into a fleet operation running competitive vehicles. You may have chance to educate one driver in the best techniques for driving the lorry…but would he be able to show the next, and next and next…of course not!!! If you cannot guarantee that each driver will have the best chance possible of enjoying driving your vehicle, to the best of his, and the vehicles ability…well resist putting the vehicle into the fleet, unless you can control the demonstration properly…otherwise you are p… the money up the wall, and possibly “souring” opinion against your vehicle.

And the third obstacle, the image of the vehicle, the look of it, and the “kudos” in being seen driving it! Just looking at Bewicks picture makes me cringe!!! Factory primer chassis, cheap mudguard fifth wheel assembly, Factory standard finished primer cab, it looks like a low cost rental unit, not a demonstrator going into a Flagship Fleet!!! What sort of outfit turned that out? Not a professional one I will warrant! Personally I think that the Atkinson looks better, and if Id come off a 111, well Id want to go back on it pdq!

Look back at the works demos, in the black, red, and chrome livery, now would you not wish to drive one of those, (and forget “Carole”, for she reeked of Garlic)! But the image with a well prepared demonstrator is there, it opens the door. All my French Dealer Demonstrators ran in livery, all were fitted with fuel consumption recorders, and non were allowed to go into fleets without proper tuition on how to get the best from the vehicle. All demonstration performance was monitored from the centre, with tight budgetary control . Too much capital was ■■■■■■■ in this area of investment to risk it not earning. And I was working in Markets receptive to the product, the team in the UK should really have been right on top of job, and never allowed the image to slip by allowing such shoddy presentation.

Somehow the UK market became used to the “free” lorry, Dealer, or Factory Demonstrators put into operators, large and small,with scant research into such basics as the operators nett credit worth, his previous buying patterns, and replacement policy, (if any). Just a sort of optomistic “hope” that thy would buy! Perhaps our Italian friends at Fiat had the most effective policy on Demonstrations…well Mr Operator, you take this 170.35, ready to go…at 40% discount, and three months credit…they did not have many come back, or on the 170.26, or the 619, and 684 before that!!! Maybe the UK market was only ever interested in “cheap” lorries?

Cheerio for now.

[newmercman]

I had a similar deal on my IVECOs, not the huge discount, although they were very competitively priced, but the take it now and start paying for it three months later deal, a nice dollop of fresh cream to add to the icing on the cake, kerching…

[spardo]

A very perceptive post Saviem, when I was transport manager at Toray, where I had steered the buying policy from Leylands, through Fodens and Mercs to Volvos (the only ones who could give me all round air suspension to allow easy demount operations with wagon and drags), I was very keen even then on the Magnum and arranged a demo vehicle from the local dealer in Nottingham. This was done well in advance and I had also lined up a hire trailer for the week as by this time we had no artics left. I think it was only a couple of days before the due date that I phoned up just to find out what time they planned to deliver it. The result at first was a blank silence, they had forgotten, or decided that another operator was more worthy perhaps, but in any case it was obvious that they weren’t going to inform me. As a result the fleet continued along a Swedish path and I wasn’t to find out for myself what an asset we may have missed until I finally got one, but as a driver again, here in France.

By the way they didn’t do themselves any favours, that dealer, with the rentals they foisted on the world. Not Magnums but the old club of four motors were in such bad condition that they would have got a GV9 if stopped on the road. One was discovered with the fuel tank hanging (just) by a single strap, the other had rusted right through. The joke around our place was that Foden gave me a nice jacket with each lorry (I still have one nearly 30 years later doing sterling work in the garden ), Mercedes only if you pushed and pushed and then a 2nd hand one (zip bust after one year) but Renault gave you a wagon with each jacket

What a shame.

[neversweat1]

I think you will find it was 2 jackets to get a free lorry. Even today we get a lot of people only want a demo because a lorry is in for MOT or its in the Bodyshop etc etc and have no intention of buying one.

Steve

[zb_anorak]

neversweat1:
Even today we get a lot of people only want a demo because a lorry is in for MOT or its in the Bodyshop etc etc and have no intention of buying one.
Steve

Maybe this is what happened to Spardo- the dealer may have been inundated with chancers after a freebie, so tended not to take enquiries seriously. However, it is clear from Spardo’s post that he was a genuine customer, with a real hope to buy a Renault. It seems that if the dealer had granted him another five minutes’ chatting time, they would have been able to suss him out as genuine.

Was the problem of spivvy operators abusing demonstrator fleets more prevalent in Britain, than on the Continent? Which countries do business more honestly?

[neversweat1]

[zb]
anorak:

neversweat1:
Even today we get a lot of people only want a demo because a lorry is in for MOT or its in the Bodyshop etc etc and have no intention of buying one.
Steve

Maybe this is what happened to Spardo- the dealer may have been inundated with chancers after a freebie, so tended not to take enquiries seriously. However, it is clear from Spardo’s post that he was a genuine customer, with a real hope to buy a Renault. It seems that if the dealer had granted him another five minutes’ chatting time, they would have been able to suss him out as genuine.

Was the problem of spivvy operators abusing demonstrator fleets more prevalent in Britain, than on the Continent? Which countries do business more honestly?

Probably the difficulty is working out the genuine from the chancers I know we’ve been had a few times by people that seemed genuine but that’s the chance you take.

Steve

[zb_anorak]

neversweat1:
[Probably the difficulty is working out the genuine from the chancers I know we’ve been had a few times by people that seemed genuine but that’s the chance you take.

Steve

I guess that even a genuine operator would plan his use of demonstrators to coincide with his own lorries being off the road, for scheduled maintenance or whatever. If he decides against an eventual purchase, who is to say that he did not have an honest preference for another make? The marketing of lorries sounds like a minefield of smoke and mirrors (never before has that metaphor been mixed on a lorry forum!) which ,according to some of the posts on here, was negotiated more successsfully by Volvo and DAF than it was by the French firms.

[neversweat1]

[zb]
anorak:

neversweat1:
[Probably the difficulty is working out the genuine from the chancers I know we’ve been had a few times by people that seemed genuine but that’s the chance you take.

Steve

I guess that even a genuine operator would plan his use of demonstrators to coincide with his own lorries being off the road, for scheduled maintenance or whatever. If he decides against an eventual purchase, who is to say that he did not have an honest preference for another make? The marketing of lorries sounds like a minefield of smoke and mirrors (never before has that metaphor been mixed on a lorry forum!) which ,according to some of the posts on here, was negotiated more successsfully by Volvo and DAF than it was by the French firms.

Perhaps we are glad of anyone wanting one of our demonstrators

Steve

[spardo]

anorak:
Maybe this is what happened to Spardo- the dealer may have been inundated with chancers after a freebie, so tended not to take enquiries seriously. However, it is clear from Spardo’s post that he was a genuine customer, with a real hope to buy a Renault. It seems that if the dealer had granted him another five minutes’ chatting time, they would have been able to suss him out as genuine.

Spot on, as an ex-driver in an own account manufacturing firm I was the only one, apart from my own drivers, who knew the first thing about transport. This fact, the weight my recommendations had, coupled with the fact that I obviously went to some trouble to make the arrangemernt well in advance should have given them a clue. 5 minutes chatting, as you put it, would have convinced them that first of all I wanted a vehicle which would meet our needs, secondly would be a good financial move for the company (I had directors to convince after all) and last but not least I had the interests of a happy workforce in my mind. If I would like to drive the wagon I knew my drivers would.

Not sure if my chairmanship of the local FTA for 3 years running should have convinced them of my professionalism or not, but I bet they didn’t bother to find out.

[zb_anorak]

Spardo:
Spot on, as an ex-driver in an own account manufacturing firm I was the only one, apart from my own drivers, who knew the first thing about transport. This fact, the weight my recommendations had, coupled with the fact that I obviously went to some trouble to make the arrangemernt well in advance should have given them a clue. 5 minutes chatting, as you put it, would have convinced them that first of all I wanted a vehicle which would meet our needs, secondly would be a good financial move for the company (I had directors to convince after all) and last but not least I had the interests of a happy workforce in my mind. If I would like to drive the wagon I knew my drivers would.

Not sure if my chairmanship of the local FTA for 3 years running should have convinced them of my professionalism or not, but I bet they didn’t bother to find out.

Sounds like the dealer was the one out for a free ride, at the expense of Renault, rather than his and their potential customers.

[bewick]

Re.the Bewick Berliet/Renault demo tractor unit,as per usual a very well crafted and informative explanation “Saviem” from the manufacturers perspective.There was very definitely a “gulf” between the Manufacturers/Dealers/operators which was unfortunate but,sadly,a fact.However,I can say with all honesty that we,at Bewick Transport,never openly canvassed for factory Demos,but if we were offered one we would happily run said demo for an agreed extended period,in return we did keep meticulous fuel records and had the various drivers give their written opinion.We treat the demo as “one of our own” during the period and handed it back in pristine condition,when all was said and done we had had the “free issue” use of an expensive bit of kit so the least we could do was give the demo a “fair shake” even if we didn’t have the slightest intention of purchasing that particular marque. Cheers Dennis.