I have a question for you Saviem - On the Edwin Shirley Trucking thread someone posted a photo they thought might have been EST’s You didn’t think it was but might have been a TR280 rather than a TR305. I have always been under the impression ( which might be incorrectly 
) that TR305’s had bumper mounted headlights and the smaller models had cab mounted ones 
Thanks
Steve
Hi Steve,
Big Dorris’s Dad Here.
You are dead right. The 305 had bumper mounted headlights alright. I took the Le Centaur to EST for them to look at. At the time they had a smart fleet of Volvos and I think they had just taken a Daf spacecab too. They decided the Centaur was too expensive and were not too keen on the idea that the cabs were bespoke and would need to go to a specialist for repairs so plumbed for a fleet seed 305. This was painted in their colours and appeared in one of the Truck magazines as the centre spread. Again, I don’t think their driver was a fan and consequently it didn’t gain any favour plus it was a freebe.
It was interesting to read the post about Atkins and their TF 231s. At one point, it was agreed the 231 was underpowered and was being over shadowed by the Volvo F7. I suggested we up the power to 280 and eventually, after another three years of talking about it, this is what happened. I did a demonstration at Petro Fina with a TF231. The first two weeks were fraught with disaster after disaster with the electrics and pumping system. One interesting fact with this particular truck was it was fitted with a Fuller 9 speed box. The first Fina driver had come off a small DAF and couldn’t change gear on the Renault. He was soon replaced when it was discovered he was not filling evaluation sheets in and kept reporting the truck was a load of rubbish. (I tried to teach him to double de clutch but he was not for learning).
LOY number plate on the Atkins truck rather makes me think this was a fleet seed too as it was common to most of the National demonstrators. We were going to put a false plate on the Le Centaur for the Lord Mayor’s show one year but sales bottled it. I used a 305 from an operator on the South coast. The theme was Renault through the ages. I had a trailer with the first Renault London Taxi and a Fuago on the back.
I visited Atkins quite a few times. On one occasion I retrieved a troublesome 231 and returned it to Manchester where Doctor Diesel ended up replacing the engine. I used the packing case to build a shed in my garden for the kids to play in.
I did a demo at Barbour European where I went to France with one of their drivers. What a palava trying to get a top bunk fitted to the demonstrator. We managed it eventually. The dealer at Milton Keynes getting one from a Transcon that had been in a crash and recovered.
The driver was called Ken something or other. One thing I realise now is that a faded picture is better than a faded memory.
It was very hard in the early days of Renault UK. Drivers remembered the Saviems with the column gearchange more than the Berliet with the Transcon cab (or so they thought). The product was slightly heavy and a little thirsty, and this took some selling. Over enthusiastic local salesmen promising 9mpg were a pain as no matter how good you were, you could never hope to achieve this.
The product has evolved into one of the best trucks on the market. The dealer network is improving day on day too. I’ll try to dig out some photos from way back.
CJ.
Hello Dorris’s Dad
Nice write up - Thanks. It seems to be the case with the headlights in the U.K but in Europe it seems to be a different proposition though What the factors are I’ve no idea 
Hopefully Saviem can shed some light on it after another gruelling day in the fields.
We had Le Centaur in the early 80’s at Reading when we opened an extension to our Workshop.
Love to see any photos you might have and any other memories you might have.
Cheers
Steve
I like to thank Monsieur saviem, Steve, Norris Dad and everybody else for this very entertaining thread !
I do not know if this has been posted on here before, but it might interest somebody
neversweat1:
I have a question for you Saviem - On the Edwin Shirley Trucking thread someone posted a photo they thought might have been EST’s You didn’t think it was but might have been a TR280 rather than a TR305. I have always been under the impression ( which might be incorrectly
Thanks
Steve
The last Renault-badged TR280s had the TR305 grille and bumper. I think. 
bald:
I like to thank Monsieur saviem, Steve, Norris Dad and everybody else for this very entertaining thread !
I do not know if this has been posted on here before, but it might interest somebody
Thanks for the link Bald
Steve
[zb]
anorak:neversweat1:
I have a question for you Saviem - On the Edwin Shirley Trucking thread someone posted a photo they thought might have been EST’s You didn’t think it was but might have been a TR280 rather than a TR305. I have always been under the impression ( which might be incorrectly
Thanks
SteveThe last Renault-badged TR280s had the TR305 grille and bumper. I think.
I didn’t realise that - Thanks
Does anyone remember the name of the haulier that ran TR’s & R Range on a contract with Johnson & Johnson ?
Cheers
Steve
neversweat1:
[zb]
anorak:neversweat1:
I have a question for you Saviem - On the Edwin Shirley Trucking thread someone posted a photo they thought might have been EST’s You didn’t think it was but might have been a TR280 rather than a TR305. I have always been under the impression ( which might be incorrectly
Thanks
SteveThe last Renault-badged TR280s had the TR305 grille and bumper. I think.
I didn’t realise that - Thanks
Does anyone remember the name of the haulier that ran TR’s & R Range on a contract with Johnson & Johnson ?Cheers
Steve
J.L Yendle was the company I was trying to remember - 
Evening Gentlemen, well we are still mowing sileage, and trying to beat the rain, good grass on the sandy fields, but very poor on the clay, but at least we are getting grass…and Im starting to come to terms, and understand the Valtra demonstrator Im using. Bi g Dorris, a real classic, the Dealer just dropped it off in the yard on Saturday, no instructions, no warnings…had some real “fun” yesterday learning the ropes…not a bit like my Deeres, and the b… does like a drop of the “claret”, but that could be the driver, (abuse), oh dear thats me!!!
To business, just before I went off into the “wilderness”, (the USA, and Mack), I had to construct a matrix, pan European, on the cost, and effect of different demonstration programmes, short term, medium term, and longue. Collecting data was not easy, but part obviously concerned the UK…so I can tell you…
The Edwin Shirley Trucking Fleet Seed was a TR305, registration LOY468V, and FB Atkins, TR305, LOY 469V, and I recall that Duncan Barbour, (Barbour European), had TR305s, HSG852X, through to 859X inclusive. …How sad is that to be able to remember those numbers! If Edwin Shirley had a TR280, (ever), then it would have been a rental unit, probably from Tim Harrison`s Harborne Rental Operation. They supplied the bulk of the EST vehicles for the 74 ABBA tour, and were a consistent supplier of mainly Volvo to Edwin, Roy, and Dell.
That Aberlour Glenlivet TR305 owes more to Aberlours Pernod Ricard parentage than the products superiority, although I seem to remember that the Highlands became quite a “hunting ground” to George Stewarts men!!
Yes the TR280 had its lights in the cab itself, and all TR305s and TR350s had bumper mounted lights. The European marketing for the big Berliets prior to the 1978 Paris show used the theme, Intelligence, performance, prestige, refering to the TR 280, (266 DIN HP) TR305, (300 DIN HP), &TR 350, (356 DIN HP). No one refered to the fact that the plant had been forced to close due to over production for two weeks prior to the show, all production staff being laid off on 60%wages.
Mind you, a couple of semi Governmental backed forays into Poland, (Paekas), and Hungary, (Hungarocamion), saw the standing stock rapidly depleted, and the works started up at full tilt. But our French domestic market share had dropped from above 50%, to 48%, mainly to the advantage of Volvo, and DAF, although Scania were consolidating from a strong customer base. Our two Dealer networks were unsure of their futures, between Saviem and Berliet there were simply too many to work economically, and there was no direction from the top. Both Commercial Directors, urged their teams on to greater efforts…mainly at each others expense. An example of the stupidity came about in 78, when Berliet introduced a new range of PSV chassis, and works bodied coaches, the PR10, 12, &14,from 36 to 57 seats. Promising ultra economic operation with the 06 20 30 engine and 6speed synchro transmission. There was also a railcar version which had enormous potential…But the market that these vehicles were aimed at…was dominated by Saviem products…logic■■?
But the overall strategy of RVI management was forward going, they had sanctioned the investment in development of a totally new range of Light Commercials, that would become European market leaders, (and would eventually be “stolen” by the car division of the Regie to the massive detriment of RVI itself), plus the investment in acquiring a greater interest in the US Market through securing share options from Signal Industries in Mack Trucks, the acquisition of the PSA Truck interests in GB, (Karrier Motors), and Hispavinsa, (Baeiros) in Spain, and the creation of an “in house” Export team to deal with non European markets, under my friend and colleague Jacques Breton, at Suresnes. His brief, (a nightmare scenario), to integrate the Saviem and Berliet worldwide networks as Renault And believe me in darkest Africa they knew the integrity of Berliet, and also of Saviem, and would not buy Renault as the customers simply did not recognise the name as meaning reliable heavy vehicles!
So really, 78 on was a bit like a curates egg, good in parts. But the real creshendo would be reached in the early to mid 80s when total integration was reached, (some would say imposed)! And the brands Saviem, and Berliet were no more…except in some selective markets…really a bit like an Agatha Christie novel, very full of sub plots…but this was business!!
Cheerio for now.
The last surviving TR280 in the UK & Ireland at Waterford Truck Show yesterday…
Contrary to my earlier post, it seems that the TR305-style grille/lamps/bumper had found their way onto the TR280 some time prior the Renault badge’s appearance. No wonder I forget where everyday objects are, with crap like this cluttering up my head.
Good Evening,
Steve you are correct it was John Yendle who had the Johnson & Johnson contract he had a lovely fleet of Saviems with that lovely whistle when coming in to land,and later Berliets I think they all came from Cheltenham Commercials and were coupled to those wonderful Scamell mini-tandems with the super singles on the rear end,I well remember one evening on the A34 transhipping a full load of baby soap to another trailer when the floor had weakened so much it gave way and bowed so much the landing legs were dragging on the floor 
Keep the photo’s coming they are great.
Saviem thanks for all your information on all things Berliet/Saviem/Renault etc. When you get a rest from the land you must write that book !! Here’s a pic of one of Duncan’s (R.I.P.) trucks you mention,sorry it’s not very good,it was taken on the move as he was coming by in France somewhere.
Regards
Richard
Interesting how Ford and Berliet both opted for the matte black grilles on their cabs at around the same time
American Midliners - I presume these were set in CKD form Was there any local content into them Mr Saviem
Steve
Hello Richard
We sold one of Yendle’s tractor units when they finished. I think it was a R340 4x2 on a “D” reg.
Cheers
Steve
neversweat1:
American Midliners - I presume these were set in CKD form1
0
Steve
Evening all, steve, to our European eyes those Midliners do look odd, yet in the States operators raved about them, the economy, the comfort, (drive a GMC petrol engined conventional 6tonner to understand poor ride and handling)!But the RVI/Mack saga is both convoluted, and frought with lost opportunities!
When Zanotti first looked at external growth, the US was a prime candidate. It possessed potential enormous volumes, (the developed worlds largest truck market by far), coupled with an educated, skilled workforce, where labour costs were more reasonable than in Europe, and the workforce spoke a single language. Odd paramaters to our eyes in 2013, but in 1978 significant to warrant a strong exploration! The decision was made, RVI must be represented in the US truck market. But how, the obvious route was via an existing manufacturer, (Renault cars had already signed a co-operation with AMC, which due to AMCs association with Israel, created the circumstance to put all truck products on the Arab boycott black list in 1981, costing about 2000 truck sales)!!
So which manufacturer would be suitable to form a co-operation?And the candidate was Mack, owned by Signal Industries, who in a lethargic truck market wished to redeploy their funds.(Much as Michelin-Citroen had wished to do with Berliet back in 1975). Initially a 10% holding was secured, 1981 saw that increased to 20% The US truck market, in volume terms had collapsed, and Signal, now seeking to merge with Wheelabrator - Frye, were prepared to exit Mack, (for a very reasonable sum), but the French Government would not release funds for a total acquisition, despite both Mack, and RVI senior people seeing the viability of such a move
Why, (and forgive me for quoting seemingly boring data, but this is the vital and true background that created the model types, and actual vehicles on the ground that we talk about)! By 1978, three years into the merger of Saviem and Berliet, RVI employed over 33000 people, by 1981 only 28200 were employed, in ten factories, (Rhone-Alpes, Central, and Normandy). Yet RVI was the third largest truck and bus producer in Europe, behind Daimler Benz, and M Agnelli`s Fiat. (Newly created as Iveco). In 1981 RVI produced about 47000 vehicles, and had sales of (circ), £1.1billion. 47% of production went for export. From 76, to 81, the Regie Renaut provided only £109million of extra capital, so the Group was being run on a very tight fiscal ■■■■■, oh, and as I have said previously, 4.5% of turnover was being spent on R&D. A very large research budget indeed.
So back to Mack. Primarily a vertically integrated manufacturer, utilising its own engines, gearboxes, and axles, (although in 1980, 40% of its class 7&8 tractors were component builds, or Glider kits, (eg, ■■■■■■■■ CAT, Fuller, Rockwell). But the big US volumes were in the class 6&7 markets. And RVI had the basic product in the Saviem J , (and later S), ranges. They just needed to be re-engineered for the US customer!
Venisseux/Saint Priest concentrated on the “heavies” for Europe, and the rest of the World, and the test, and R%D facilities at Villiers Saint Frederic, (around 30 odd kms from Paris), working closely with the production site at Blainville were tasked with creating the “French Mack”!!
Villiers Saint Frederic was a site of around 15hectares, having a staff of around 360, made up of 125 production technicians,200 specialists, and 38 Senior engineers, working in a modern facility of about 1600sq metres. That they created a tremendous product could not be denied, the original 797, and 798turbo engined J series were strong products, but refined to suit US requirements, and developed with the help of Mack personnel they were potential winners…then the US market collapsed in 79!!! But by 81, “we” had 6% of the total market, and were a major player in the US. Quite some feat, as Mack were a "heavy end " company, and all the volume was conquest business.
The Midliners were a total French product, built at Blainville, shipped by CAT, a Regie subsidiary, and sold by the Mack Network. The tribulations of trying to get some of the Mack Dealers into lighter markets would perhaps form an interesting subject for a future post, believe me, it was not easy, even when you showed them the potential profit! (Peterbilt staff had the same problem when they marketed their VW cabbed attempt at Class 6)!
The collaboration, was about much more than Class 6&7. Mack engine design was close to that of Berliet/RVI, and French and US engineers worked in close collaboration on many aspects of engineering design. And if one adds together the potential of the “joint” company, in 1981 the realisable potential volumes were in excess of Daimler Benz at 60000 plus units. Certainly scope for economy of scale, let alone the realisable scale of operation in South Central America, a prime RVI objective.
The merger/takeover was the idea of Zanotti, he saw the potential scale savings, and sales volumes. His political masters did not, a familiar story, but it gave me some interesting years work, and those Mack people were so positive, and real “goers”, a blooming good outfit!
Cheerio for now.
Afternoon all, just a quick memory, (particularly as its such a cold miserable day in Shropshire)!
Summer 1975, and Im bowling along through Bordeaux, in one of our SM340 V8 Saviem drawbar demonstrators, window down, not a care in the world. Suddenly my attention was distracted by a rather attractive “rear end” in a bright yellow dress on the pavement, I tried to catch a glance in the nearside mirror…then there was a piercing whistle…I had run a red light, with a Gendarme on the pavement…oh b…!
I stopped, got out, and received a massive verbal “going over”…then out came the notebook…oh heck!
Why did you not see the red, he asked…I answered truthfully, for truly I was in deep merdre.
He smiled, pushed back his Keppi, put away the notebook, and slapped me on the shoulder! With a smiling warning to keep my eyes on the road in future, I was free to go!!!
That is why I loved working in France so much .
Ah well, back out into the weather again…its hailing now!! Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
Afternoon all, just a quick memory, (particularly as its such a cold miserable day in Shropshire)!Summer 1975, and Im bowling along through Bordeaux, in one of our SM340 V8 Saviem drawbar demonstrators, window down, not a care in the world. Suddenly my attention was distracted by a rather attractive “rear end” in a bright yellow dress on the pavement, I tried to catch a glance in the nearside mirror…then there was a piercing whistle…I had run a red light, with a Gendarme on the pavement…oh b…!
I stopped, got out, and received a massive verbal “going over”…then out came the notebook…oh heck!
Why did you not see the red, he asked…I answered truthfully, for truly I was in deep merdre.
He smiled, pushed back his Keppi, put away the notebook, and slapped me on the shoulder! With a smiling warning to keep my eyes on the road in future, I was free to go!!!
That is why I loved working in France so much .
Ah well, back out into the weather again…its hailing now!! Cheerio for now.
Priceless!
