“Carryfast” is becoming noticeably agitated on his recent posts. Maybe it’s finally getting under his skin. I’m braced for stock reply
"Pointless contribution bla bla three blind mice…, feel free to provide a sensible argument on…yap yap yap rhubarb rhubarb options x y or z 
"
muckles:
Carryfast:
muckles:
Please can you tell me which of the modern European AMT heavy truck boxes they have turned the Auto mode off and just left it running on manual?I’d guessed that you’d have realised that was my point.IE the road safety question,in pandering to the habits of ‘drivers’,who’s idea of a skilled approach to hazards and obstacles is brake and go with the definition of brake meaning as late as possible with brake temperatures and entry speeds to match.
In other words you were spouting more guff, you knew nothing about.
As I said full auto gear selection provision panders to the type of steering wheel attendant who’ll happily use novice car type braking points and technique and resulting entry speeds to take a heavy truck into a roundabout for example.On the basis of a brake and go approach.
Carryfast:
muckles:
Carryfast:
muckles:
Please can you tell me which of the modern European AMT heavy truck boxes they have turned the Auto mode off and just left it running on manual?I’d guessed that you’d have realised that was my point.IE the road safety question,in pandering to the habits of ‘drivers’,who’s idea of a skilled approach to hazards and obstacles is brake and go with the definition of brake meaning as late as possible with brake temperatures and entry speeds to match.
In other words you were spouting more guff, you knew nothing about.
As I said full auto gear selection provision panders to the type of steering wheel attendant who’ll happily use novice car type braking points and technique and resulting entry speeds to take a heavy truck into a roundabout for example.On the basis of a brake and go approach.
Do you sit beside these steering wheel attendants to witness this type of braking or is it all in your head like most of the other rubbish you spout?
To those saying you need to learn how to drive an auto…I have had nothing but auto for about 8 or 9 years so have had plenty of experience with them.
Fact is, I personally still hate them and can’t wait to get a manual. I’m the same with cars though which makes even less sense given that auto cars with torque converters are alright. I can’t explain it other than I must be a control freak. I think, rightly or wrongly, as an enthusiastic driver that i’m better at gear selection and changes than little black boxes and wiring. [emoji57]
nomiS36:
I think, rightly or wrongly, as an enthusiastic driver that i’m better at gear selection and changes than little black boxes and wiring. [emoji57]
An that’s with a conventional H shift pattern synchro not a sequential dog box. 
youtube.com/watch?v=t4zSIVpVMaw 7.23 - 7.28
Carryfast:
nomiS36:
I think, rightly or wrongly, as an enthusiastic driver that i’m better at gear selection and changes than little black boxes and wiring. [emoji57]
An that’s with a conventional H shift pattern synchro not a sequential dog box.
youtube.com/watch?v=t4zSIVpVMaw 7.23 - 7.28
Very impressive, even more so for being an American car that handles! I’ve been round the ‘ring on an R1 but still not managed to get back there in a car yet. It’s on the bucket list so one day in my BMW with a MANual gearbox [emoji23]
nomiS36:
Carryfast:
nomiS36:
I think, rightly or wrongly, as an enthusiastic driver that i’m better at gear selection and changes than little black boxes and wiring. [emoji57]
An that’s with a conventional H shift pattern synchro not a sequential dog box.
youtube.com/watch?v=t4zSIVpVMaw 7.23 - 7.28
Very impressive, even more so for being an American car that handles! I’ve been round the ‘ring on an R1 but still not managed to get back there in a car yet. It’s on the bucket list so one day in my BMW with a MANual gearbox [emoji23]
Good lord, imagine your masculinity being that fragile you need a gear stick to help it
Carryfast:
muckles:
Carryfast:
muckles:
Please can you tell me which of the modern European AMT heavy truck boxes they have turned the Auto mode off and just left it running on manual?I’d guessed that you’d have realised that was my point.IE the road safety question,in pandering to the habits of ‘drivers’,who’s idea of a skilled approach to hazards and obstacles is brake and go with the definition of brake meaning as late as possible with brake temperatures and entry speeds to match.
In other words you were spouting more guff, you knew nothing about.
As I said full auto gear selection provision panders to the type of steering wheel attendant who’ll happily use novice car type braking points and technique and resulting entry speeds to take a heavy truck into a roundabout for example.On the basis of a brake and go approach.
The type of person who rely’s on last moment braking into roundabouts would do the same in a manual, the reason they’re able to do it later now than in days gone by, is the fact brakes have got better not because they have an auto box, although this is no excuse to drive it like a car.
And just because you have an auto box it doesn’t mean you are relying on your service brakes, if you are driving it properly the auto box will be changing down, most of the one I drive you can also change gear in these situations without going into manual and if as you have a retarder you can be using that to control your deceleration therefore keeping the service brakes for coming to a final halt. With proper planning and a bit of luck you can probably slow down and enter the roundabout at a sensible speed without ever using your service brakes.
I like to be smooth and steady in a truck and as professional as I can, I spend most of my working life watching both professional and amateur drivers being enthusiastic and then trying to get the results of their enthusiasm back on the truck.
As for nomiS36 that’s his choice and given that he’s getting an MAN, I’d have gone for the Comfort Shift over the MAN auto, but at least he’s made his decision through experience, as others have on here who’ve said they’re quite happy with their auto’s, unlike yourself who has no experience of modern trucks with auto boxes, but feels totally qualified to knock them and find any feeble reason why they shouldn’t be used.
Exactly right, muckles - putting in a manual gearbox won’t stop a lazy driver being a lazy driver. They could simply knock it into neutral on the run in, use the brakes to control the speed, then put it back into gear to go.
Carryfast:
muckles:
Carryfast:
muckles:
Please can you tell me which of the modern European AMT heavy truck boxes they have turned the Auto mode off and just left it running on manual?I’d guessed that you’d have realised that was my point.IE the road safety question,in pandering to the habits of ‘drivers’,who’s idea of a skilled approach to hazards and obstacles is brake and go with the definition of brake meaning as late as possible with brake temperatures and entry speeds to match.
In other words you were spouting more guff, you knew nothing about.
As I said full auto gear selection provision panders to the type of steering wheel attendant who’ll happily use novice car type braking points and technique and resulting entry speeds to take a heavy truck into a roundabout for example.On the basis of a brake and go approach.
The fact that autos enable drivers of a lower competence to operate, does not automatically make every driver who actually uses an auto incompetent, or make autos something that a self-respecting competent driver would want to avoid using.
One can still drive a manual like a madman.
The argument that manuals impose some sort of discipline is a weak argument. Otherwise, synchromesh boxes would also be a tool of the devil, allowing lazy, flexible gearchanges compared to good ole crash boxes. And late model crash boxes would be far too sloppy, compared to pre-war gearboxes. And why have a starter motor, when a hand crank only encourages sloppy drivers to stall often and without penalty? Why have motorised windscreen wipers, when a hand crank separates the men from the boys in rainy weather?
All these backward technologies do is impose a higher workload on the driver, and a more rigid physical routine at the controls which is less amenable to the reality of what is actually happening on the road and less amenable to correcting one’s own occasional mistakes.
Auto gearboxes are at the stage where they are more or less as good as manual selection - and they retain the ability to manually select on the off chance the driver begs to differ.
When I have overridden the auto, it is normally because I’m in a restless mood and want to pre-empt it’s otherwise adequate handling of the gears and thrash every possible advantage out of the engine (such as downshifting before an uphill stretch, rather than allowing the auto to do so once already into the hill).
If I’d just left the controls alone, there would be no appreciable difference in the outcome, other than maybe a couple of mph difference over a couple of minutes - and those sorts of margins shouldn’t bear on the minds of safe, sensible drivers, particularly when the proposed alternative is to handle every declutch and gear change for one’s self.
For the competent driver, a manual gearbox is simply extra work - work that is itself prone to mistakes, and is no longer necessary.
muckles:
The type of person who rely’s on last moment braking into roundabouts would do the same in a manual, the reason they’re able to do it later now than in days gone by, is the fact brakes have got better not because they have an auto box, although this is no excuse to drive it like a car.
The difference is if they do that with a proper constant mesh box like a Fuller they are just going to be left with a box full of noisy neutrals when they arrive and press the go pedal. 
I used to drive Twin splitters and enjoyed having the skill to use them like a semi-automatic. When I first drove a two-pedal auto (a volvo I think) I was scared to reverse because it wouldn’t go slow enough.
Later I got a fairly new MAN two-pedal MAN and thought it was the best thing since ratchet straps. It ran in full auto all the time, but I could force a downshift to take full advantage of the exhaust brake, and sometimes at the bottom of a hill on windy roads like Hereford to Worcester. You need to learn how to drive an auto, just as you did when faced with a different manual to the one you were used to.
Rjan:
Carryfast:
As I said full auto gear selection provision panders to the type of steering wheel attendant who’ll happily use novice car type braking points and technique and resulting entry speeds to take a heavy truck into a roundabout for example.On the basis of a brake and go approach.The fact that autos enable drivers of a lower competence to operate, does not automatically make every driver who actually uses an auto incompetent, or make autos something that a self-respecting competent driver would want to avoid using.
One can still drive a manual like a madman.
The argument that manuals impose some sort of discipline is a weak argument. Otherwise, synchromesh boxes would also be a tool of the devil, allowing lazy, flexible gearchanges compared to good ole crash boxes. And late model crash boxes would be far too sloppy, compared to pre-war gearboxes. And why have a starter motor, when a hand crank only encourages sloppy drivers to stall often and without penalty? Why have motorised windscreen wipers, when a hand crank separates the men from the boys in rainy weather?
All these backward technologies do is impose a higher workload on the driver, and a more rigid physical routine at the controls which is less amenable to the reality of what is actually happening on the road and less amenable to correcting one’s own occasional mistakes.
Auto gearboxes are at the stage where they are more or less as good as manual selection - and they retain the ability to manually select on the off chance the driver begs to differ.
When I have overridden the auto, it is normally because I’m in a restless mood and want to pre-empt it’s otherwise adequate handling of the gears and thrash every possible advantage out of the engine (such as downshifting before an uphill stretch, rather than allowing the auto to do so once already into the hill).
If I’d just left the controls alone, there would be no appreciable difference in the outcome, other than maybe a couple of mph difference over a couple of minutes - and those sorts of margins shouldn’t bear on the minds of safe, sensible drivers, particularly when the proposed alternative is to handle every declutch and gear change for one’s self.
For the competent driver, a manual gearbox is simply extra work - work that is itself prone to mistakes, and is no longer necessary.
The fact that autos and yes to an extent synchro manuals allow drivers of lower ( too low ) competence to drive trucks in an incompetent manner is the issue and anything but a weak argument.
While I’d suggest that the move from sliding mesh to constant mesh fits the definition of no longer needing to use starting handles.While the move from constant mesh to synchro and auto is a counter productive move which as I’ve said could foreseeably and potentially put a heavy truck into the wrong hands.While the decent drivers obviously have nothing to worry about in that regard because using a gearbox properly should be instinctive and as close as makes no difference flawless.Bearing in mind other long established developments like air assisted clutches and now auto engine speed matching in which only someone without two arms and two legs would/should have the slightest issues.
Carryfast:
Rjan:
…For the competent driver, a manual gearbox is simply extra work - work that is itself prone to mistakes, and is no longer necessary.
The fact that autos and yes to an extent synchro manuals allow drivers of lower ( too low ) competence to drive trucks in an incompetent manner is the issue and anything but a weak argument.
I don’t see that the standard of truck driving has slipped of late.
The only people who regularly moan about truck drivers competence are the pillocks in the office - and that’s more to do with their self-image and pretensions than reality.
While I’d suggest that the move from sliding mesh to constant mesh fits the definition of no longer needing to use starting handles.While the move from constant mesh to synchro and auto is a counter productive move which as I’ve said could foreseeably and potentially put a heavy truck into the wrong hands.While the decent drivers obviously have nothing to worry about in that regard because using a gearbox properly should be instinctive and as close as makes no difference flawless.Bearing in mind other long established developments like air assisted clutches and now auto engine speed matching in which only someone without two arms and two legs would/should have the slightest issues.
I just can’t accept the logic that making jobs as difficult as possible, so that only a minority can cope adequately with the whole task, is a good thing.
Even for the minority who can cope, it becomes a job that it only just within their capability to cope with (which must be so, because any slack between the demands of the job and the capability of the best workers, would lead to inferior workers flooding into the game), and which is unnecessarily difficult and error-prone.
In every industry where this kind of logic has been analysed, it’s found to be just an excuse for practices that are less safe and less labour efficient.
The best workers are never fault-free, and the more difficult their job is, or the more it relies on high doses of self-discipline to avoid catastrophe, the more mistakes they make and the higher price they pay.
I can think of a few times I’ve driven manuals where old or maltreated gearboxes have meant wrestling with the gearstick in situations where I needed to be watching the road. And a gear change that therefore should have been complete a certain distance before a maneouver, has impinged into the maneouvering period, demanding large amounts of concentration from me that should have been fully on the maneouver instead.
Rjan:
Carryfast:
Rjan:
…For the competent driver, a manual gearbox is simply extra work - work that is itself prone to mistakes, and is no longer necessary.
The fact that autos and yes to an extent synchro manuals allow drivers of lower ( too low ) competence to drive trucks in an incompetent manner is the issue and anything but a weak argument.
I don’t see that the standard of truck driving has slipped of late.
The only people who regularly moan about truck drivers competence are the pillocks in the office - and that’s more to do with their self-image and pretensions than reality.
While I’d suggest that the move from sliding mesh to constant mesh fits the definition of no longer needing to use starting handles.While the move from constant mesh to synchro and auto is a counter productive move which as I’ve said could foreseeably and potentially put a heavy truck into the wrong hands.While the decent drivers obviously have nothing to worry about in that regard because using a gearbox properly should be instinctive and as close as makes no difference flawless.Bearing in mind other long established developments like air assisted clutches and now auto engine speed matching in which only someone without two arms and two legs would/should have the slightest issues.
I just can’t accept the logic that making jobs as difficult as possible, so that only a minority can cope adequately with the whole task, is a good thing.
Even for the minority who can cope, it becomes a job that it only just within their capability to cope with (which must be so, because any slack between the demands of the job and the capability of the best workers, would lead to inferior workers flooding into the game), and which is unnecessarily difficult and error-prone.
In every industry where this kind of logic has been analysed, it’s found to be just an excuse for practices that are less safe and less labour efficient.
The best workers are never fault-free, and the more difficult their job is, or the more it relies on high doses of self-discipline to avoid catastrophe, the more mistakes they make and the higher price they pay.
I can think of a few times I’ve driven manuals where old or maltreated gearboxes have meant wrestling with the gearstick in situations where I needed to be watching the road. And a gear change that therefore should have been complete a certain distance before a maneouver, has impinged into the maneouvering period, demanding large amounts of concentration from me that should have been fully on the maneouver instead.
How do we get from air assisted clutch,with the lightest fastest gearshift of the constant mesh design,now with the added benefit of auto rev matching,to something which only a minority of drivers can be expected to cope with. 
While as it stands we’re far more likely to end up in a situation of the wrong type of novice car driver behind the wheel of a heavy truck.Than helping you to avoid the supposed situation of over loading your senses in having to make a few downshifts on the approach to a roundabout with a proper gearbox.
mmmm…well as someone (like many others on the site)who started on constan t mesh boxes ,fullers spicer db went on to synchro boxes then an EPS merc shudder…then to a Allison auto (with the Tbar shifter) then Allison world push button …I found it was horses for courses with the fuller on highway work trunking and the Allison when on multi pick up/rural routes. NOW I moved across the pond and found myself back with 9/11/12/13/18 gearboxes and 6x2 and 5x4 gearboxes and to be honest I miss the allisons.its nice to show bystanders you can shift clean but I was jealous this summer as I drove a 12sp Mack box and another company on the same contract had new trucks with Allison push button box.
Carryfast:
How do we get from air assisted clutch,with the lightest fastest gearshift of the constant mesh design,now with the added benefit of auto rev matching,to something which only a minority of drivers can be expected to cope with.
Because that is precisely your logic, as follows.
While as it stands we’re far more likely to end up in a situation of the wrong type of novice car driver behind the wheel of a heavy truck.Than helping you to avoid the supposed situation of over loading your senses in having to make a few downshifts on the approach to a roundabout with a proper gearbox.
Driving whilst manually shifting is now a circus act, something one does as a show of prowess rather than a necessary component of work. And like a circus act, nobody seriously suggests it is a better or safer way to work.
Whether these novice car drivers who can’t drive have been dragged into the industry because of auto gearboxes I don’t know, but i can’t see much evidence of that.
JIMBO47:
mmmm…well as someone (like many others on the site)who started on constan t mesh boxes ,fullers spicer db went on to synchro boxes then an EPS merc shudder…then to a Allison auto (with the Tbar shifter) then Allison world push button …I found it was horses for courses with the fuller on highway work trunking and the Allison when on multi pick up/rural routes. NOW I moved across the pond and found myself back with 9/11/12/13/18 gearboxes and 6x2 and 5x4 gearboxes and to be honest I miss the allisons.its nice to show bystanders you can shift clean but I was jealous this summer as I drove a 12sp Mack box and another company on the same contract had new trucks with Allison push button box.
we had a daf 55 18tonne fitted with an Allison push button box at salvesen , best thing since sliced bread for multi drop , knocks the pants off any of these later auto boxes.
Carryfast:
Bearing in mind other long established developments like air assisted clutches and now auto engine speed matching in which only someone without two arms and two legs would/should have the slightest issues.
So you’ve been saying that bringing back constant mesh boxes would sort out the wheat from the chaff and now you’re saying that a modern constant mesh box can be used by anybody?
muckles:
Carryfast:
Bearing in mind other long established developments like air assisted clutches and now auto engine speed matching in which only someone without two arms and two legs would/should have the slightest issues.So you’ve been saying that bringing back constant mesh boxes would sort out the wheat from the chaff and now you’re saying that a modern constant mesh box can be used by anybody?
It’s obvious that I meant proper manual boxes won’t make the job ‘physically’ more demanding.But they probably will sort out the worst aspects of autos pandering to the brake and go brigade even with the added benefit of auto rev matching.Because even that won’t get them a gear to go with if they’ve made a banzai approach.Probably unlike an auto.