Wheel Nut:
The finest installation of a ZF16 speed synchro box was fitted by MAN with Comfort Shift
What’s Comfort Shift? I asked Mrs Google, but she wasn’t much help.
Star down under.:
Wheel Nut:
The finest installation of a ZF16 speed synchro box was fitted by MAN with Comfort ShiftWhat’s Comfort Shift? I asked Mrs Google, but she wasn’t much help.
It took over the function of your left leg so to speak, there was an extra button fitted on the gearlever, once pressed you didn’t have to press the clutch pedal yourself. I always reckoned it was a brilliant system, as the clutch in those early XL models was quite hard to operate. Pity really that it never caught on… and they gave us those horrible auto 'boxes in return instead.
Not sure if Comfort Shift is still an option on newer MAN’s?
Star down under.:
Wheel Nut:
The finest installation of a ZF16 speed synchro box was fitted by MAN with Comfort ShiftWhat’s Comfort Shift? I asked Mrs Google, but she wasn’t much help.
I always fancied the older knock-over version that was fitted in the F90/F2000 range… might think differently about that now though 15 years on… 
pv83:
Star down under.:
Wheel Nut:
The finest installation of a ZF16 speed synchro box was fitted by MAN with Comfort ShiftWhat’s Comfort Shift? I asked Mrs Google, but she wasn’t much help.
I always fancied the older knock-over version that was fitted in the F90/F2000 range… might think differently about that now though 15 years on…
F90 also had the Eaton Twin Splitter as an option, by far the best installation and engine/gearbox combo i’ve driven with ETS the box taking full advantage of the engines ability to rev quickly and drop revs just as fast.
Comfort shift no longer available for normal order of standard road use spec far as i’m aware, but dare say for offroad or special orders they’ll fit whatever you want at a cost.
Lots of people hated the knock over box, i had a square 430 Axor with it for a while and it was an honest basic fit for purpose working vehicle and that box allowed you to make use of the extraordinarily good low engine speed torque to full advantage, turbo spooling up for heaps of torque from as little as 800rpm, auto Mercs are dreadful things and the last motor i’d want but something as simple as a manual box transforms them.
Juddian:
auto Mercs are dreadful things and the last motor i’d want but something as simple as a manual box transforms them.
Nothing could transform the 2534 it was a gutless piece of junk and the gearshift needed two arms which is probably why most had the even worse EPS and in keeping with the topic from memory I preferred the older 1628 that I’d driven around a decade before.A dumb NA V8 followed by a dumber turbo V6.
I used to drive an old 90s mack
It was great, loved it
Eaton splitter, air assisted everything, shag seat 
I nicknamed her “the polluter”
What was the question? Oh
… yes is the answer but we’d prefer if it was no…
newmercman:
It’s the driver not the truck in those cases Ramone. There is a racket going on amongst that community where drivers are imported, I say drivers, they’re not though and that’s the problem, to make matters worse they run to ridiculously tight schedules which means they have to keep going when anyone with half a brain has pulled off the road. It has made that route and the single lane sections of the TransCanada Highway extremely dangerous roads, most of BC and all of Northern Ontario are single carriageway too, there are road closures on an almost daily basis caused by bad driving.
I thought Canada would be fairly strict on drivers hours but you can’t put it where god didn’t intend it to be , so no matter what the drivers hours law dictates it doesn’t compensate for pure stupdity Fog s one of the weather conditions you have to treat with respect , no matter how long you’ve been driving . I think driving standards here are at an all time low , that’s right across the board. Everyone must get past the lorry no matter what and that includes drivers in faster lorries cutting you up. It’s an every day occurance. Everyone has got to be at their destination before they set off. It doesn’t help with parcel firms offering services where you can order up to midnight for next day delivery puting more pressure on the despatch section
Apart from a gutless 81 Scania on a 1976 plate,that was spare wagon and drag motor I’ve never driven anything with an auto box. Are you able to select manual changes from auto in these modern machines? Are they really as bad as some older drivers paint them?
I came off road in 1988 to go full time shunting,but for a few months in 1994 when made redundant I went back on tankers and had a 8 years old ERF E14 with twin-splitter and it was one of the finest wagons I ever drove.Owt with a ■■■■■■■ and Fuller would do for me,but I would have loved an AEC Mandator with Fuller box in olden days. 
As a postscript,I live in Thirsk just off the A170 Sutton Bank road and stacks of wagons are up and down all day,from older stuff to 44t artics which must have auto boxes and it doesn’t seem to faze drivers,even at 1 in 4.
Chris Webb:
Apart from a gutless 81 Scania on a 1976 plate,that was spare wagon and drag motor I’ve never driven anything with an auto box. Are you able to select manual changes from auto in these modern machines? Are they really as bad as some older drivers paint them?
I came off road in 1988 to go full time shunting,but for a few months in 1994 when made redundant I went back on tankers and had a 8 years old ERF E14 with twin-splitter and it was one of the finest wagons I ever drove.Owt with a ■■■■■■■ and Fuller would do for me,but I would have loved an AEC Mandator with Fuller box in olden days.
As a postscript,I live in Thirsk just off the A170 Sutton Bank road and stacks of wagons are up and down all day,from older stuff to 44t artics which must have auto boxes and it doesn’t seem to faze drivers,even at 1 in 4.
Chris , the autobox is really a manual with a computer sorting the gear changes . You put it in drive put your foot down and wait to see what happens . Sometimes you go sometimes there’s a delay , if you try to reverse up hill to a loading bay you have no control you cant use them lke an auto car . They roll which ever way the road slopes. Some drivers love them some hate them . Now if you are lucky enough to drive a Volvo they seem to have got there’s fairly well sussed. I went up Sutton Bank about 18 months ago with 1 half ton pallet on the front , only i didn’t , i got to the first steep bit and lost traction I tried everythng , diff locks manual dump switch for the mid lift still no traction . About a mile of reversing back down and managed to reverse into a farm track , i used the caravan route after that. To be fair that was more to do with the mid lift than the box
Chris,
Auto boxes are OK for open road work, particularly motorways where no gearshifts are involved 
.
Where they make life difficult is at moving junctions and rapidly steeping hills, most still have some form of manual input but some fleets have had manual programmed out so the box does whatever it wants, some boxes even with manual default to auto eco (DAF) after a couple of mins and if you approach a slippery hill without making sure you have some form of manual control often enough the box can’t downchange fast enough to cope and Ramone’s adventure becomes reality.
One regular run of mine whilst on car transporters, modern versions of which put nowhere near enough weight onto the drive axle, involved crossing from Worcester to Hereford or Leominster and vice versa, multi drop so could be anything from 11 to 6 to 0 cars on board, when loaded it was always the case with a Scania auto that you HAD to select MH Manual Hillclimbing (gave more rapid changes than M) and be ready for some precise block downchanges on the hill…coupled with being ready once below 20 mph to dump the mid lift air, or there was real danger of either loss of traction regardless of gear and/or stall out if you were in auto…i’d already experienced stall out before so was well aware this was a possibility, no way was there going to be a restart on those hills unless the road was bone dry, and it goes without saying that you would be careful to load and route for traction as much as possible on such journeys.
Moving junctions are another thing, approaching a roundabout any proper driver will have already planned an approach with appropriate gear and speed to maintain progress, proper lorry drivers have been doing it all their working lives, now depending on how poor the installation and programming is if left in auto the vehicle doesn’t know what or when you are doing, so when you resume power it the has to decide what gear to take, invariably the gear will be wrong, either too low meaning another change when you’ve barely had 2 seconds of resumed power, or too high when it then changes down and more than likely scene 1 repeats, by the time this happens you’ve pulled out without power and caused issues or had to come to a complete halt.
So, you’ve stopped fully and its a busy road, so its going to be a full power take off…or so you think…so a space arrives and you plant your foot and off she goes, then a car appears round the corner doing 50mph, so you have to just as suddenly stop, but the auto clutch can’t disengage itself quickly enough and the engine stalls out, wonderful.
I’ll add here, this is not the situation with Volvo boxes which have been pretty spot on from day 1.
So, you use manual instead, making use of proper engine/correct gear retarding as you approach the roundabout, you’re already in the right gear at the moment of going under power you know will take you through and hopefully all is well…aha…thats when the lorry takes over again, it doesn’t like the fact you’ve asked to continue in that gear, in manual, at 1100 rpm in the green with an engine happy to lug down to 900 and still pulling well, so despite being in manual some boxes take over again unasked and the box drops two gears and the engine is now high revving at 1800 or 2000rpm, but you’re still in manual so the box won’t auto upchange, so you flick it up two gears…aha…its memorised that it dropped two on its own and you’ve asked for it for two upshifts so it gives you…wait for it…a four gear block upshift, wonderful.
So when that happens you have to quicly nip it into auto, allow it to select its next gear which could be anything, and then revert to manual.
Also add here, whilst not the best for fully auto driving, i find Scania autos the best of the lot for manual driving, the box responding instantly and precisely to whatever the driver askes of it, its not the Scania that behaves as above either.
Hope that explains why i hate the things, no, they’re ok for normal work and absolutely fine for the typical fleet artic running round on open roads, carrying parcels ideally, but they are frustrating beyond belief if you have more involving work or perish the thought actually still like being in full control of the wagon.
Having said that neither would i want a Swedish motor with a manual box, almost all of which have been horrid disappoiting things when compared to the many decent Eaton Fuller boxes that have been an absolute pleasure, and able to be driven home sans clutch operation when a thrust bearing disinstegrates, try that with an auto
Juddian:
Chris,
Auto boxes are OK for open road work, particularly motorways where no gearshifts are involvedWhere they make life difficult is at moving junctions and rapidly steeping hills, most still have some form of manual input but some fleets have had manual programmed out so the box does whatever it wants, some boxes even with manual default to auto eco (DAF) after a couple of mins and if you approach a slippery hill without making sure you have some form of manual control often enough the box can’t downchange fast enough to cope and Ramone’s adventure becomes reality.
One regular run of mine whilst on car transporters, modern versions of which put nowhere near enough weight onto the drive axle, involved crossing from Worcester to Hereford or Leominster and vice versa, multi drop so could be anything from 11 to 6 to 0 cars on board, when loaded it was always the case with a Scania auto that you HAD to select MH Manual Hillclimbing (gave more rapid changes than M) and be ready for some precise block downchanges on the hill…coupled with being ready once below 20 mph to dump the mid lift air, or there was real danger of either loss of traction regardless of gear and/or stall out if you were in auto…i’d already experienced stall out before so was well aware this was a possibility, no way was there going to be a restart on those hills unless the road was bone dry, and it goes without saying that you would be careful to load and route for traction as much as possible on such journeys.
Moving junctions are another thing, approaching a roundabout any proper driver will have already planned an approach with appropriate gear and speed to maintain progress, proper lorry drivers have been doing it all their working lives, now depending on how poor the installation and programming is if left in auto the vehicle doesn’t know what or when you are doing, so when you resume power it the has to decide what gear to take, invariably the gear will be wrong, either too low meaning another change when you’ve barely had 2 seconds of resumed power, or too high when it then changes down and more than likely scene 1 repeats, by the time this happens you’ve pulled out without power and caused issues or had to come to a complete halt.
So, you’ve stopped fully and its a busy road, so its going to be a full power take off…or so you think…so a space arrives and you plant your foot and off she goes, then a car appears round the corner doing 50mph, so you have to just as suddenly stop, but the auto clutch can’t disengage itself quickly enough and the engine stalls out, wonderful.I’ll add here, this is not the situation with Volvo boxes which have been pretty spot on from day 1.
So, you use manual instead, making use of proper engine/correct gear retarding as you approach the roundabout, you’re already in the right gear at the moment of going under power you know will take you through and hopefully all is well…aha…thats when the lorry takes over again, it doesn’t like the fact you’ve asked to continue in that gear, in manual, at 1100 rpm in the green with an engine happy to lug down to 900 and still pulling well, so despite being in manual some boxes take over again unasked and the box drops two gears and the engine is now high revving at 1800 or 2000rpm, but you’re still in manual so the box won’t auto upchange, so you flick it up two gears…aha…its memorised that it dropped two on its own and you’ve asked for it for two upshifts so it gives you…wait for it…a four gear block upshift, wonderful.
So when that happens you have to quicly nip it into auto, allow it to select its next gear which could be anything, and then revert to manual.Also add here, whilst not the best for fully auto driving, i find Scania autos the best of the lot for manual driving, the box responding instantly and precisely to whatever the driver askes of it, its not the Scania that behaves as above either.
Hope that explains why i hate the things, no, they’re ok for normal work and absolutely fine for the typical fleet artic running round on open roads, carrying parcels ideally, but they are frustrating beyond belief if you have more involving work or perish the thought actually still like being in full control of the wagon.
Having said that neither would i want a Swedish motor with a manual box, almost all of which have been horrid disappoiting things when compared to the many decent Eaton Fuller boxes that have been an absolute pleasure, and able to be driven home sans clutch operation when a thrust bearing disinstegrates, try that with an auto
Thanks Ramone and Juddian for the input.They sound a bloody nightmare to one who has been used to manual boxes all his life.There’s no wonder some wagons fail on Sutton Bank then,not the driver but the autobox which has taken over. So in some cases can a driver select a low gear on an autobox manually and stay in it for the duration of the incline or does the box want to change up when revs get too high? I couldn’t do with that,sorry,I just like to be in charge.But that’s progress I suppose… 
Chris Webb:
Juddian:
Thanks Ramone and Juddian for the input.They sound a bloody nightmare to one who has been used to manual boxes all his life.There’s no wonder some wagons fail on Sutton Bank then,not the driver but the autobox which has taken over. So in some cases can a driver select a low gear on an autobox manually and stay in it for the duration of the incline or does the box want to change up when revs get too high? I couldn’t do with that,sorry,I just like to be in charge.But that’s progress I suppose…
On most boxes with manual input once you’ve selected your hill climbing gear you have control and it will stay in that gear, though its possible if you allowed the revs to drop to engine stall point the vehicle might take over and change down, not happened to me (its always been on moving junctions it buggers about like that), but a proper lorry driver would already have changed down anyway by that point and if i’m not going to upshift i’ll keep the throttle down to prevent overrevving, same as anyone with half an ounce.
I’m not sure what would happen in a Daf in those circs, in theory after about a minute without any other driver input it could well decide to default to eco auto and upshift, and you can’t simply ‘confirm’ manual you have to scroll between manual, auto and eco, others who drive them regularly might have a better idea than me whether you could lock it in or whether it would sense a severe hill and not default back.
In practice in driving particularly hill climbing i’m like you Chris, i’m in bloody charge taking into account terrain traffic load distribution surface traction engine power/weight hill length and gradient variance etc, if left in auto the vehicle will downshift when there may be no need at all, often enough i’m forcing it to stay in a higher gear keeping the revs comfortable even if that might mean i crest a hill slightly slower than allowing the auto box and full throttle to keep as high a speed as possible.
The secret i’ve found with autos is to learn them and their strengths and weaknesses when you don’t need to know, just the same as you would with every aspect of your vehicle, ie in normal conditions.
No good trying to learn the precise change points and all its foibles or how it will fight you when you’re attempting a 1:6 hill or when the a blizzard is just blowing up, it needs to be second nature, same as you need to know the exact speed point below which you can dump any extra axle air to transfer as much as poss onto the drive axle, you practice such things all the time so its automatic when you need it badly.
In their favour, there are clowns out there who would slip the clutch instead of downshifting, and other clowns who rev the ■■■■■■■■ off the motor and drop the clutch in from stationary, these autos do prevent such clowns from doing their worst.
I have noticed how slow modern trucks with engines twice the bhp of what I ever drove are at getting away from roundabouts and junctions. My last new Foden with ‘only’ 335 bhp and 13 speed Fuller was far quicker from a standing start, I could get through four gears and be well on my way while these modern ones are only just starting moving!
Pete.
windrush:
I have noticed how slow modern trucks with engines twice the bhp of what I ever drove are at getting away from roundabouts and junctions. My last new Foden with ‘only’ 335 bhp and 13 speed Fuller was far quicker from a standing start, I could get through four gears and be well on my way while these modern ones are only just starting moving!Pete.
that’s most for reliability (on gearbox mainly) and for fuel economy
windrush:
I have noticed how slow modern trucks with engines twice the bhp of what I ever drove are at getting away from roundabouts and junctions. My last new Foden with ‘only’ 335 bhp and 13 speed Fuller was far quicker from a standing start, I could get through four gears and be well on my way while these modern ones are only just starting moving!Pete.
30 tons, Pete?
Trouble is the engines are now no bigger in capacity and on some a 10 litre lump rated at 440hp trying to get 44 tons moving with a gearbox that just isn’t fast enough.
People are looking solely at headline BHP figures and not wondering how tortured to buggery some undersized little motor must be to get those figures.
I bet your 335 was producing as much torque as the 440 where it matters, for pulling away with from clutch engagement revs.
Reading Juddian’s excellent and comprehensive input about the problems and vagaries of the majority of automated gearboxes in modern trucks perhaps it begs the question did Leyland have the concept right over 50 years ago with the two-pedal Beaver and the Pneumo-Cyclic gearbox. Five main forward gears and splitter for 10 ratios; no clutch to operate but the driver had complete control of his gear changing manually to suit road conditions and all contingencies.
gingerfold:
Reading Juddian’s excellent and comprehensive input about the problems and vagaries of the majority of automated gearboxes in modern trucks perhaps it begs the question did Leyland have the concept right over 50 years ago with the two-pedal Beaver and the Pneumo-Cyclic gearbox. Five main forward gears and splitter for 10 ratios; no clutch to operate but the driver had complete control of his gear changing manually to suit road conditions and all contingencies.
Not sure if you ever drove one Graham but did they handle like an auto car, was there any roll back at junctions or reversing. I just never feel comfortable with them , never in control , i like to keep the rev needle in the green but its impossible unless you override the gearbox. Leyland had some innovative ideas but not the funds to develop them . I think the best configuration gearbox i have driven is the 13 speed fuller with the top for splitting , but thats another story . Did the Leyland box give problems or was it reliable?
Juddian:
30 tons, Pete?
Trouble is the engines are now no bigger in capacity and on some a 10 litre lump rated at 440hp trying to get 44 tons moving with a gearbox that just isn’t fast enough.
People are looking solely at headline BHP figures and not wondering how tortured to buggery some undersized little motor must be to get those figures.
I bet your 335 was producing as much torque as the 440 where it matters, for pulling away with from clutch engagement revs.
Actually 31 tonnes Juddian, it was plated for 32 but the gaffer wouldn’t pay the extra to run it at the higher gvw. However it carried less payload than my previous 265 Li Rolls engined Foden running at 30.80! 
Progress again! I’m comparing it with the modern 32 tonne eight leggers that seem sluggish to me, auto boxes on many I suppose? I realise that 44 tonnes must take some shifting from a standing start even with a manual gearbox.
Pete.
ramone:
gingerfold:
Reading Juddian’s excellent and comprehensive input about the problems and vagaries of the majority of automated gearboxes in modern trucks perhaps it begs the question did Leyland have the concept right over 50 years ago with the two-pedal Beaver and the Pneumo-Cyclic gearbox. Five main forward gears and splitter for 10 ratios; no clutch to operate but the driver had complete control of his gear changing manually to suit road conditions and all contingencies.Not sure if you ever drove one Graham but did they handle like an auto car, was there any roll back at junctions or reversing. I just never feel comfortable with them , never in control , i like to keep the rev needle in the green but its impossible unless you override the gearbox. Leyland had some innovative ideas but not the funds to develop them . I think the best configuration gearbox i have driven is the 13 speed fuller with the top for splitting , but thats another story . Did the Leyland box give problems or was it reliable?
The concept was similar to the modern automated-change manual 'box, the clue being in the name - “Pneumo”. The gear change was air-operated. They had been used in 4 and 5 speed versions in buses for years before being used in the Beaver. Other makers also tried them. It was intended to be the default gearbox for the Mandator V8. There was (is?) a preserved Mammoth Major eight-wheeler with this gearbox. I never drove one but talking to drivers who did then you had to treat them as you would a normal manual 'box, in other words take a slight pause in neutral when going up or down the 'box. The gear change lever was floor mounted in a gate-change pedestal. Drivers who rushed the gearchange straight through neutral could beat the air changing system and cause problems. By being subjected to totally different operating conditions in a lorry than in a bus, the gearbox oil could get very hot and start to lose its lubricating properties. I was told that the Mandator V8s that had this 'box could boil the oil. Hipwood and Grundy had several of them. Modern gear oil would solve that particular problem. Like other Leyland ideas at the time it was under-developed for lorry applications at 30/32 tons gvw, whereas a double decker bus weighed about 9 tons and rarely went above 30 mph on stage carriage routes.
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Was it the two pedal Beaver that the driver had to ‘toggle up’ each morning before setting off and if this wasn’t done they didn’t perform correctly?
Pete.