cav551:
The poor ventilation in the engine compartment also caused cooling system overheating as well. To a lesser extent similar problems were encountered elsewhere.
^ It’s fair to say that this was the inherent problem with rear engine designs.Mostly if not all heat related one way or another.In addition to the lack of easy accessibility to fix the resulting issues.As stated only the bean counters saw an advantage in the move to rear engine one man operation.For everyone else the move to Fleetline/Atlantean was a retrograde, often laughably so, move.However my own theory is that even LT’s management knew that and there was a hidden more serious agenda behind the premature end of RM production.( Deliberate rundown of AEC ).
Frankydobo:
Just got an E-mail from Classic and Vintage Commercial Magazine that they have an AEC special coming out, just over £8.00, it promises new photo’s not seen but I’ve heard that one before! Looked for a front cover pic but couldn’t find one on the internet, usually WH Smiths get these mags in pretty quickly. Franky.
Frankydobo:
Just got an E-mail from Classic and Vintage Commercial Magazine that they have an AEC special coming out, just over £8.00, it promises new photo’s not seen but I’ve heard that one before! Looked for a front cover pic but couldn’t find one on the internet, usually WH Smiths get these mags in pretty quickly. Franky.
Thanks for the Info, Frank.I will certainley get a one, Regards Larry.
Frankydobo:
Just got an E-mail from Classic and Vintage Commercial Magazine that they have an AEC special coming out, just over £8.00, it promises new photo’s not seen but I’ve heard that one before! Looked for a front cover pic but couldn’t find one on the internet, usually WH Smiths get these mags in pretty quickly. Franky.
Thanks for the Info, Frank.I will certainley get a one, Regards Larry.
Hiya Larry hope your are well ,I came through your town again this Wednesday on route to Bo’ness foundry from London with a drop in Harrogate cheers Dan’l.
Frankydobo:
Just got an E-mail from Classic and Vintage Commercial Magazine that they have an AEC special coming out, just over £8.00, it promises new photo’s not seen but I’ve heard that one before! Looked for a front cover pic but couldn’t find one on the internet, usually WH Smiths get these mags in pretty quickly. Franky.
Thanks for the Info, Frank.I will certainley get a one, Regards Larry.
Hiya Larry hope your are well ,I came through your town again this Wednesday on route to Bo’ness foundry from London with a drop in Harrogate cheers Dan’l.
Hi Dan, Im keeping ok at present, Hope you are too, Regards Larry.
Frankydobo:
Just got an E-mail from Classic and Vintage Commercial Magazine that they have an AEC special coming out, just over £8.00, it promises new photo’s not seen but I’ve heard that one before! Looked for a front cover pic but couldn’t find one on the internet, usually WH Smiths get these mags in pretty quickly. Franky.
Thanks for the Info, Frank.I will certainley get a one, Regards Larry.
Hiya Larry hope your are well ,I came through your town again this Wednesday on route to Bo’ness foundry from London with a drop in Harrogate cheers Dan’l.
Hi Dan, Im keeping ok at present, Hope you are too, Regards Larry.
A couple of Hipwood & Grundy AEC Mandators. The Mk.V is a late registered model from 1966, and is one of the very few home market 9’6" wheelbase models, and it met the 1965 C&U Regs for 30 tons gross weight. The photo was taken by the late Philip Platt somewhere in Devon.
The Ergomatic cabbed Mandator was also registered in 1966 and it was posed for an AEC works photographer at the bottom of Hall Lane Farnworth. The load is almost certainly white reels from Robert Fletcher’s paper mill at Stoneclough.
gingerfold:
A couple of Hipwood & Grundy AEC Mandators. The Mk.V is a late registered model from 1966, and is one of the very few home market 9’6" wheelbase models, and it met the 1965 C&U Regs for 30 tons gross weight. The photo was taken by the late Philip Platt somewhere in Devon.
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The Ergomatic cabbed Mandator was also registered in 1966 and it was posed for an AEC works photographer at the bottom of Hall Lane Farnworth. The load is almost certainly white reels from Robert Fletcher’s paper mill at Stoneclough.
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Nice photos Graham.
Hipwood and Grundy ran AEC V8s as well,but I didn’t realise how many until I read your book.
Allison’s Mandator Mk.V with ubiquitous 4-in-line trailer showing a well-sheeted and roped load. The front rope crossing is a variation I haven’t seen before… comments from the roping and sheeting guru? The background location is thought to be a foundry adjacent to London Road, Glasgow. The smartly dressed gent…? any ideas who he is anyone
gingerfold:
Allison’s Mandator Mk.V with ubiquitous 4-in-line trailer showing a well-sheeted and roped load. The front rope crossing is a variation I haven’t seen before… comments from the roping and sheeting guru? The background location is thought to be a foundry adjacent to London Road, Glasgow. The smartly dressed gent…? any ideas who he is anyone
0
Far from being a guru, but the term at least as it was often called in Kent, is on the side of the cab.
gingerfold:
Allison’s Mandator Mk.V with ubiquitous 4-in-line trailer showing a well-sheeted and roped load. The front rope crossing is a variation I haven’t seen before… comments from the roping and sheeting guru? The background location is thought to be a foundry adjacent to London Road, Glasgow. The smartly dressed gent…? any ideas who he is anyone
0
Far from being a guru, but the term at least as it was often called in Kent, is on the side of the cab.
What I know as an “Aberdeen Angus” took the rope through the junction of the cross to make a star pattern with the ropes… I feel another debate is about to start.
Occasionally, if when the cross on the back of the sheeted load was complete, and if there was
some rope remaining from the cross, we would put a hitch in from the middle of the cross, and
neatly coil the remainder, and leave it hanging. We called it a " Scotsmans ", but I never saw a
double Scotsmans as in the picture above. On the other hand, I do like a " Double Scotch ".
ramone:
I don’t think you are distracting from AEC on this thread , the Atlantean was probably a relevant reason why AEC disn’t survive , obviously not the main one but a factor all the same. What was the problem with the Atlanteans in their LT lives , were they unreliable?
Having had a look through some of the information I have to hand I can make a case for the Atlantean and Fleetline story in the London area being relevant to the story of AEC since one particular aspect affected AEC products as well.
Some of the following comes from the memoirs of Colin Curtis (40 years with London Transport SBN 0 86317 156 7) a one time head of the experimental shop at LT and a former AEC apprentice and member of AEC’s own experimental department. For those with a keen mechanical interest this is worth borrowing from the Library.
The conclusion drawn, after the comparative trial between the Leyland Atlantean (XA) with Leyland 680 power and the Daimler Fleetline (XF) with Gardner 6LX power, was after having swapped members of each class from Central London to Country Area work, that the XF was the more suitable vehicle having been more reliable. The most serious issue with the Atlantean was also apparent with the experimental batch of AEC Reliance chassis LT had tried and was to affect the large numbers of AEC Swifts LT was to buy. The problem occurred in Central London and to a lesser extent in the Country Area as well. The Atlantean AND the AEC Swift incorporated a “Power Pack” : Engine fluid Flywheel and Planetary gearbox all in one bolted-together lump. When the vehicle was held up in trafffic, waiting at bus stops for large numbers of passengers to get on and off, or inching forward in traffic queues, the engine/ transmission compartment temperature went through the roof, this particularly so when the bus was idling in-gear. The accompanying thermal expansion acted along the axis of the crankshaft. Severe failures resulted - crankshaft thrust bearings failed as did flywheels with often catastrophic damage. Part of the cause was Leyland induced, the fluid flywheel casing was an aluminium alloy which expanded more than the AEC cast iron version. The Leyland control mechanism for the SCG gearbox also produced very jerky gearchanges - on a par with the severity which had afflicted the first RMs and earned them the nickname of “Jerkmasters”. The poor ventilation in the engine compartment also caused cooling system overheating as well. To a lesser extent similar problems were encountered elsewhere. In an attempt to overcome the thermal expansion problem Leyland, possibly with LT involvement devised various equally ingenious but troublesome centrifugal clutches.
The Fleetline adopted a more traditional layout and separated the transmission from the flywheel with a spider-like coupling. This did away with the thermal expansion issue but coupling life was short, depended on accurate alignment between engine and gearbox and failure could result in bits of it being launched into orbit. The propensity for both Leyland and Gardner engines to puke oil meant that engine mounting rubbers became soggy very quickly thus aggravating the poor couplings working envitonment. Several different designs were tried, but this was the model’s main failing throughout its production. More serious were issues with the SCG gearbox which became evident when large orders for Fleetlines as the DM and DMS class were introduced. London bus drivers were used to Routemasters, the gearbox had been designed to operate ’ in the London way’ - full throttle gearchanges.
In full London spec the DMS was two tons heavier than an RM unladen. The Daimler version of the SCG gearbox “employed a technical operational feature which was most undesirable for London operation” (C. Curtis ) - exactly the opposite of what was required. Curtis took the Daimler Experimental Engineer for a demonstration drive: " I can see poor George sitting there now, holding his head in his hands". The brake bands, clutch plates and internal linkages suffered grieviously from this treatment, which was eventually improved by various modifications. However Leylands decision to transfer production of the Fleetline from Daimler’s Radford Works to Farrington destroyed the working relationship between customer and manufacturer. In a ‘we know best attitude’ typical of Leyland, a rationalisation of production methods and a modification to parts specification resulted in a return to the previous issues putting brand new buses off the road very shortly after entering service.
Apart from the above LT’s DMS class were hindered by LT’s attempts to speed boarding times with automatic fare collection equipment. This suffered indigestion when subjected to the forces involved in a moving vehicle, meaning that the actual boarding time increased because the equipment was in the way.
As said the AEC Swift in its ‘Merlin’ guise especially, suffered from the same similar Power pack induced issues as well as its own problems with the persistent coolant fan drive failures. Leyland’s arrogant attitude returned to blight the Swift. The same Leyland modifications were re-introduced to the SCG gearbox and even worse the Leyland ‘rationalised flywheel’ complete with aluminium casing was reinstated with the predictable results. The adoption of an earth return electrical system caused numerous shorts and even some fires. Fires were also started by a change to the source of inlet air for the compressor from atmosphere, to coming instead from the inlet manifold. Oil contamination of this air resulted in hot carbon ejected by the compressor either bursting the rubber compressor delivery pipe or blocking it. In the case of the latter red hot carbon was ejected at considerable velocity by the system safety valve into an already very hot engine compartment liberally coated with dust, debris and oil .
I’ve just been browsing through one of the monthly vintage magazines i get and there’s an article on the buses of Malta and a few references to ex LT AEC Swifts they ran .How would they cope with the heat in Malta if they had overheating problems in London or was it a case of a more demanding day in the capital ?
gingerfold:
Allison’s Mandator Mk.V with ubiquitous 4-in-line trailer showing a well-sheeted and roped load. The front rope crossing is a variation I haven’t seen before… comments from the roping and sheeting guru? The background location is thought to be a foundry adjacent to London Road, Glasgow. The smartly dressed gent…? any ideas who he is anyone
0
I was never a fan of that type of cross, front or back. It reminded me of the farmers with hay & straw loads who never learned to tie a dolly! Much better to rely on the traditional cross- if more tension was required, a double dolly would do the trick, even if you had to remove the second one because you were running out of rope. I used a “belt & braces” method at times consisting of two crosses, forming a diamond shape in the middle of the front or rear.
Does that make me a “guru”? If so, those who still haven’t settled their accounts for the R&S courses should have been charged even more!
Anyway, back to the subject of AECs………………
gingerfold:
Allison’s Mandator Mk.V with ubiquitous 4-in-line trailer showing a well-sheeted and roped load. The front rope crossing is a variation I haven’t seen before… comments from the roping and sheeting guru? The background location is thought to be a foundry adjacent to London Road, Glasgow. The smartly dressed gent…? any ideas who he is anyone
0
Far from being a guru, but the term at least as it was often called in Kent, is on the side of the cab.
What I know as an “Aberdeen Angus” took the rope through the junction of the cross to make a star pattern with the ropes… I feel another debate is about to start.
It’s just a way of maintaining the location and putting more tension on the low side of the cross.
Also note that it uses my preferred method of putting the dolly on the high side of the cross because it provides a better pull than the short length of the low side pulling around the corner.With the bonus that it also upsets Bewick.
gingerfold:
Allison’s Mandator Mk.V with ubiquitous 4-in-line trailer showing a well-sheeted and roped load. The front rope crossing is a variation I haven’t seen before… comments from the roping and sheeting guru? The background location is thought to be a foundry adjacent to London Road, Glasgow. The smartly dressed gent…? any ideas who he is anyone
0
I was never a fan of that type of cross, front or back. It reminded me of the farmers with hay & straw loads who never learned to tie a dolly! Much better to rely on the traditional cross- if more tension was required, a double dolly would do the trick, even if you had to remove the second one because you were running out of rope. I used a “belt & braces” method at times consisting of two crosses, forming a diamond shape in the middle of the front or rear.
Does that make me a “guru”? If so, those who still haven’t settled their accounts for the R&S courses should have been charged even more!
Anyway, back to the subject of AECs………………
One can only assume that the failure of the overpriced R&S courses caused your eventual decline to tanker work !!!
gingerfold:
Allison’s Mandator Mk.V with ubiquitous 4-in-line trailer showing a well-sheeted and roped load. The front rope crossing is a variation I haven’t seen before… comments from the roping and sheeting guru? The background location is thought to be a foundry adjacent to London Road, Glasgow. The smartly dressed gent…? any ideas who he is anyone
0
I was never a fan of that type of cross, front or back. It reminded me of the farmers with hay & straw loads who never learned to tie a dolly! Much better to rely on the traditional cross- if more tension was required, a double dolly would do the trick, even if you had to remove the second one because you were running out of rope. I used a “belt & braces” method at times consisting of two crosses, forming a diamond shape in the middle of the front or rear.
Does that make me a “guru”? If so, those who still haven’t settled their accounts for the R&S courses should have been charged even more!
Anyway, back to the subject of AECs………………
One can only assume that the failure of the overpriced R&S courses caused your eventual decline to tanker work !!!
A South African prime mover and trailer combination is service with BP. South Africa was a major export market for AEC, having an assembly from CKD and distribution network in a joint venture with J.H. Plane. Jack Plane was also a director of AEC in the UK.
