A day, 7 days a week etc

We’ve had lots of discussions here in the past about 7 days a week etc. And usually there is a lot of guessing or interpreting going on as to what is meant in the regulations, allsorts of differing viewpoints. Not that i aim to clear it all up, it actually gets foggier as you read it all, but here we go, here’s why you can work 7 days or more as long as its no more than 144 hours and its nothing to do with “different sets of rules” or looking at them this way or that, or a day is not defined or what 24 hours is. It was a simple High Court descision in May, 1988 …

The High Court set an important precedent last week ruling that drivers can work more than six daily driving periods within six days, provided that they do not push the total number of hours driven, since their last weekly rest, to a figure in excess of the maximum permitted in six consecutive daily driving periods.
Patrick Kelly, a driver with Redhead Freight of Dungiven in Northern Ireland, was appealing to the High Court against a conviction given against him by Bradford Magistrates on four offences of not taking 45 hours consecutive rest after working six daily driving periods. (CM 29 October-4 November and 8-14 October 1987).
Justice Hutchison said that the magistrates were wrong to conclude that in the calculation of driving periods, “day” meant any period of 24 hours commencing at midnight. He felt that the view of both defence and prosecution that “day” meant successive periods of 24 hours beginning at whatever time the driver resumed after a weekly rest period – a “rolling period” of 24 hours – was the correct interpretation.
The prosecution argued, however, that Article 6(1) did not permit driving during the period after the sixth daily driving period in which a driver could postpone the commencement of his weekly rest period, stating that a driver must, after no more than six daily driving periods, take a weekly rest period.
The defence maintained the phrase “if the total driving time over the six days does not exceed the maximum corresponding to six daily driving periods” would not have been included in the regulations if it had not been envisaged that a driver could have seven or eight daily driving periods in six days.
Hutchison said that every driver must have a weekly rest period, as defined by Article 8, between midnight Sunday and midnight on the following Sunday.

Source…archive.commercialmotor.com/arti … VChul0V.99

So since then, we’ve been able to work more than…six daily driving periods (as they where known) or six days or whatever you want to call them. The criteria being you cannot go more than 144 hours from your last weekly rest period until you start your next one.
Now that was a High Court Judgement i’ve no idea how binding it is on the wider EU. But as far as us in the UK are concerned thats all we need to know…
Well until a European Judgment of the Court of 9 June1994 which sought to clarify this question…
Definition of period of work and end of working day
Thus…

.Is the period of work each period during which the driver of a vehicle subject to Regulations (EEC) No 3820/85 and 3821/85 cannot freely dispose of his
time? Does the period of work comprise driving periods, breaks in driving and time
devoted to other activities?
Is a ‘day’ a period of 24 hours and when does a day commence for the purposes of interpreting Regulations (EEC) No 3820/85 and 3821/85: at 0000 hours of the calendar day or at the moment when
the driver concerned first takes over a vehicle subject to those regulations? Can the day commence at a different time?
Is the end of the working period the moment at which the driver concerned is
no longer accountable for the use of his time to the management of the transport
company, and at which he regains the right freely to dispose of his time?

Now the Courts answer does define a day, and it also throws a different light on a 24 hour period than mentioned in the previous Judgement. Here it is…

The “daily working period” within the meaning of Article 15(2) of Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85
comprises the driving time, all other periods of work,the period of availability, breaks in work and, where the driver divides his daily rest into two or three separate periods, such a period, provided that it does not exceed one hour. The “daily working period” commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or daily rest period, or,if the daily rest is divided into separate periods,following the rest period of at least eight hours’ duration. It ends at the beginning of a daily rest period or, if the daily rest is divided into separate periods, at the beginning of a rest period extending over a minimum of eight consecutive hours.
The term “day”, within the meaning of Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 and of Regulation No 3821/85,
must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that
duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or
daily rest period.

Source…ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/roa … ements.pdf

So to summarise…
1988 High Court Judgement of Justice Hutchinsons says Prosecution is wrong in its assesment that a 24 hour period begins at midnight, Justice Hutchinson says 24 hour periods start rolling from the end of your weekly rest, consecutively.
1994 European Judgement ,which comes with a disclaimer as to how it may affect 561/2006 (it says it should be assesed on a case by case basis), says a 24 hour period begins when you resume work after a daily or weekly rest period. This clearly debunks the 1988 Judgement. At least as far as the wider EU is concerned assuming the UK as it appears to do ignores it.

You all did see a “day” defined in there didn’t you ? :smiley:

Note: just for ease of reading…

Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 = old drivers hours regs

Regulation (EEC) No 3821/85 = current tachograph regs

Regulation (EEC) No 561/2006 = current drivers hours regs

VOSA stance today on Justice Hutchinsons ruling of 1998 regarding weekly rest is that his descision that 24 hours start rolling once you finish your weekly rest is correct. They ignore his descision that … every driver must have a weekly rest period, as defined by Article 8, between midnight Sunday and midnight on the following Sunday. And infact they say you can start a weekly rest in one week and finish it in the next.

Next we’ll debunk the split weekly rest period for HGV drivers !! :smiley:

goes to show we all know sod all :unamused:

The term “day”, within the meaning of Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 and of Regulation No 3821/85,
must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that
duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or
daily rest period.

3820/85 was revoked but 3821/85 is still in force so unless that has also been revoked then the meaning of ‘day’ is still relevant

I bow to your finding Mike :smiley: but I still think its odd that from say noon on Monday to noon on Tuesday is a ‘day’ when most would say that is over two days

We are going to have to differentiate between day and calendar day where the regs are concerned

A driver can work 7 consecutive calendar days
A driver cannot work more than 6 consecutive days

ROG:

The term “day”, within the meaning of Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 and of Regulation No 3821/85,
must be understood as equivalent to the term “period of 24 hours”, which refers to any period of that
duration which commences at the time when the driver activates the tachograph following a weekly or
daily rest period.

3820/85 was revoked but 3821/85 is still in force so unless that has also been revoked then the meaning of ‘day’ is still relevant

I bow to your finding Mike :smiley: but I still think its odd that from say noon on Monday to noon on Tuesday is a ‘day’ when most would say that is over two days

We are going to have to differentiate between day and calendar day where the regs are concerned

A driver can work 7 consecutive calendar days
A driver cannot work more than 6 consecutive days

A driver cannot work more than 6 consecutive 24 hr periods…remove the word “day” together. Or “A driver must start a weekly rest period no later than 144 hrs after the end of the previous weekly rest period”?

DonutUK:
remove the word “day” together.

I agree - its confusing to use that word

Mike-C:
You all did see a “day” defined in there didn’t you ? :smiley:

Yes but in what way is it relevant to the regulations we have today.

(EEC) No 3820/85 has been repealed by (EC) 561/2006 which as far as I can see places no relevance on the word “day”, well not in the context you’re referring to anyway.

Also as far as I can see (EEC) No 3821/85 places no relevance on the word day as far as weekly rest periods are concerned, or have I missed something ?

Mike-C:
VOSA stance today on Justice Hutchinsons ruling of 1998 regarding weekly rest is that his descision that 24 hours start rolling once you finish your weekly rest is correct. They ignore his descision that … every driver must have a weekly rest period, as defined by Article 8, between midnight Sunday and midnight on the following Sunday. And infact they say you can start a weekly rest in one week and finish it in the next.

No they haven’t :slight_smile:

According to that magazine article Justice Hutchison said that “every driver must have a weekly rest period, as defined by Article 8, between midnight Sunday and midnight on the following Sunday”.

That’s because article 8 of (EEC) No 3820/85 said “A weekly rest period which begins in one week and continues into the following week may be attached to either of these weeks”, the current regulations say the same only worded slightly differently.

Mike-C:
Next we’ll debunk the split weekly rest period for HGV drivers !! :smiley:

OK :smiley:

tachograph:

Mike-C:
You all did see a “day” defined in there didn’t you ? :smiley:

Yes but in what way is it relevant to the regulations we have today.

(EEC) No 3820/85 has been repealed by (EC) 561/2006 which as far as I can see places no relevance on the word “day”, well not in the context you’re referring to anyway.

Also as far as I can see (EEC) No 3821/85 places no relevance on the word day as far as weekly rest periods are concerned, or have I missed something ?

I provided the information that a day has been defined for the regulations. I did not put forward any idea for its relevance in respect of anything other than it being the most current definition we have to date, and i have not put forward any “context” .Although things might change from day to day. :laughing:

Certain Court judgments under earlier legislation which has been repealed remain relevant as interpretative guidance on key provisions carried over into the current legislation. However, the relevance of Court rulings for the application and interpretation of Regulation 561/2006 should be assessed on a case by case basis.

Which is basically what i said in my OP.

Mike-C:

tachograph:

Mike-C:
You all did see a “day” defined in there didn’t you ? :smiley:

Yes but in what way is it relevant to the regulations we have today.

(EEC) No 3820/85 has been repealed by (EC) 561/2006 which as far as I can see places no relevance on the word “day”, well not in the context you’re referring to anyway.

Also as far as I can see (EEC) No 3821/85 places no relevance on the word day as far as weekly rest periods are concerned, or have I missed something ?

I provided the information that a day has been defined for the regulations. I did not put forward any idea for its relevance in respect of anything other than it being the most current definition we have to date

OK fair enough, it’s the most relevant definition of a “day” for the old regulations that no-one any longer works to :smiley:

Mike-C:
and i have not put forward any “context” .Although things might change from day to day. :laughing:

Well you did start the post by saying “We’ve had lots of discussions here in the past about 7 days a week etc” which does sort of suggest you’re referring to weekly rest periods.

Mike-C:

Certain Court judgments under earlier legislation which has been repealed remain relevant as interpretative guidance on key provisions carried over into the current legislation. However, the relevance of Court rulings for the application and interpretation of Regulation 561/2006 should be assessed on a case by case basis.

Which is basically what i said in my OP.

Also fair enough, but given that the relevance of a “day” as defined for (EEC) 3820/85 has been removed from (EC) 561/2006, and in (EEC) No 3821/85 a day is mainly to do with the software legalities of a digital tachograph I can’t honestly see a court using it as a precedence for future driver or operator prosecutions.

I just posted the info up as its something some are interested in, and really we where all guessing as to how that 144 hour thing came about. That info clarifies it , and also defines a “day” irrespective of whether its important or not, its obviously important enough for them to reproduce the info.

cant see the point in getting In a twist . who in their right mind wants to work to the max every week. :unamused:

My day starts when I start work and finishes when I finish. Today that was 09:00 -21:15. Yesterday it was 09:00-17:00 then 19:00 -21:20, two different locations. Tomorrow it will be 05:45 - 11:30 and 11:45 -12:45 then 18:45-19:45, three different locations. Thursday is 19:55-21:10 and Friday 09:00-13:00 and 17:45-19:45. Nothing Saturday and Sunday is 09:15-10:15 and I really don’t care anymore what the regs say what a day is or is not and I couldn’t be happier. :smiley: :frowning: :smiley: :frowning:

Coffeeholic:
My day starts when I start work and finishes when I finish. Today that was 09:00 -21:15. Yesterday it was 09:00-17:00 then 19:00 -21:20, two different locations. Tomorrow it will be 05:45 - 11:30 and 11:45 -12:45 then 18:45-19:45, three different locations. Thursday is 19:55-21:10 and Friday 09:00-13:00 and 17:45-19:45. Nothing Saturday and Sunday is 09:15-10:15 and I really don’t care anymore what the regs say what a day is or is not and I couldn’t be happier. :smiley: :frowning: :smiley: :frowning:

:smiley: I’m seeing a few split rests in there :smiley:

SECTION IV

Driving periods
Article 6
1. The driving period between any two daily rest periods or between a daily rest period and a weekly rest period, hereinafter called ‘daily driving period’, shall not exceed nine hours. It may be extended twice in any one week to 10 hours.
A driver must, after no more than six daily driving periods, take a weekly rest period as defined in Article 8 (3).

Seems clear to me, lucky driver I say. The problem with reg;s as such, is that several items of the regulations have to be complied with simultaneously, as well as knowing which article takes precedence.
The driver reduced the 24 hour period, which resulted in working more than 6 daily periods, the later taking precedent, therefore a weekly rest should have been shown.

The fact that his total weekly driving was less than or equal to 56 hours is neither here nor there, that part of the reg’s was simply to say if you hit 56 hours you need to take a weekly rest to reset the driving clock.

The judge got it wrong!

.

tachograph:
.

I know its only a dot, but it says so much. I can sense the exasperation !! :smiley:

Mike-C:

tachograph:
.

I know its only a dot, but it says so much. I can sense the exasperation !! :smiley:

but 2 … looks better :wink:

Mike-C:

tachograph:
.

I know its only a dot, but it says so much. I can sense the exasperation !! :smiley:

:laughing: :wink: