A.D.R breaches penalty?

[dieseldave]

I’m tending to agree with Franglais; first thought on this…

However, and just in case your post is serious, (as a DGSA and ADR course instructor with 20+ yrs experience) I’ll tell you that there are just two ways that this can go.

1.) Whatever they are asking you to carry does not legally count as dangerous goods, in which case it’s nothing to do with ADR and you can stop reading my post at this point because it’s just a case of you cracking on with the job.

OR

2.) In the alternative, it does count as dangerous goods, so I’ll need a UN number (four digits with the letters"UN") the correct name for the substance to be carried, as well as the UN Class number and Packing Group. (The PG is expressed using Roman numerals.)

From what we know so far, but lacking a complete picture…
You’ve already said that it’s going to be carried loose loaded in a tipper, which ADR calls “in bulk,” so (if it’s dangerous goods) the whole of the applicable ADR requirements will apply from the moment any amount of the substance/article(s) are loaded.

In this case, the notion of of you being allowed to carry this load because your boss has booked you for an ADR course is laughable and points to a complete absence of any knowledge or experience of dangerous goods on your boss’ part, and probably the lack of a properly qualified DGSA. (You can tell him I said so.) After all, ADR requires that companies who consign or carry dangerous goods loads that are fully subject to ADR must have a properly qualified DGSA, whose job it is to advise him on such matters. For companies who transport dngerous goods, this has been the case in the UK since 01/01/2000.

The notion of Limited Quantities applies to dangerous goods packaged in smallish sized packages, usually the kind of stuff you can buy in a retail shop, so that idea is completely irrelevant to this job.

The notion of being allowed to carry a certain amount of Kg/Litres does exist in ADR, which is usually called the ‘small load threshold.’ This applies to dangerous goods packed in normal types and sizes of packages, ie; NOT packaged as Limited Qualntity (per package) for delivery to retail shops. From what you’ve said about a tipper, this idea also seems to be completely irrelevant to this job.

Depending on the substance (which we don’t know yet), ADR has several hundred Special Provisions, one or more of which may alter some of the applicable rules for carriage.

As to penalties… this is the easiest part of your question.
ADR 1.4.2.2.1 has this to say:
Paraphrased by me:
The carrier (the vehicle owner, your boss) is responsible and answerable for:
Making sure that the load is authorised for carriage in accordance with ADR, including but not limited to; all documentation and required vehicle markings and equipment, assigning a an ADR qualified driver, all of which is based on the info given to him be the sender (consignor) in a traceable form, as well as having a properly qualified DGSA.

IF you are the owner of the vehicle, you’ve probably got several problems, potentially fairly serious ones.

IF you are an employed driver, then you have nothing to worry about because you’re simply following your boss’ instructions. (I did say that this was the easy bit! )

• You’ll need to supply more info before anybody can give you a better answer.

[rubbercluck]

That is very informative and very helpful so thankyou I do appreciate it as to the UN number on the tipper paperwork im unsure as I refused to do it until my adr is complete since speaking to a few other drivers on here, so I am now doing there curtain side work, which is scrap wet batteries and forklift batteries on pallets banded or shrink wrapped or still in the steel casing for forklift style ones.

The paperwork does say UN:2794
And packing groups 3
However I’m told thos comes under sp598 which apparently means I dont need to show orange plates or come under ADR or anything.

Thankyou

[dieseldave]

From what you’ve said, it might be that they have access to a DGSA, otherwise they wouldn’t know the SP for the wet batteries.

It surprises me that your boss thought that you could carry a ‘regulated’ load without an ADR Card simply on the basis that he’d booked you on an ADR course at some point in the future. How he came to that notion is beyond me.

Here’s what ADR has to say on the suject:
"ADR 8.2.1.1 Drivers of vehicles carrying dangerous goods shall hold a certificate issued by the competent authority stating that they have participated in a training course and passed an examination on the particular requirements that have to be met during carriage of dangerous goods." [In the UK, this means a driver’s ADR card issued by SQA.]

There’s no allowance eg; for seven days to produce at a police station etc, because:
(ADR 8.1.2 = Documents to be carried on board a vehicle)
ADR 8.1.2.2. ( = Subsection of 8.1.2.)
(a) not relevant
(b) The driver’s training certificate prescribed in 8.2.1
(c) not relevant

The notions of Limited Quantities AND the ‘small load exemption’ I mentioned above are occasions when you can carry dangerous goods without being in possession of an ADR Card. In both of those cases you should have had some ADR ‘awareness’ training beforehand.

As I said… if your boss sends you out with dangerous goods ‘in bulk’ (as explained in my last post,) that’s on your boss’ head, not yours.

[franglais]

Maybe not relevant in this particular case, but: Not in the UK, and not recently, but when I was doing such work all the exporters / shipping companies were sure to get the driver to sign the CMR and DG notes, which clearly state the nature of the goods.
The UK has always seemed slack in that respect to me.

[dieseldave]

Yes Franglais, that’s true as I can remember those days too.

Nowadays, a DGN (or more correctly called a Multi-Modal Dangerous Goods Note) still has the same function as we both remember, but… the driver should only ever sign the box for driver’s signature and NO other box, regardless of what nonsense the sender/loader/packer/office bod try to con drivers with. Putting it quite simply, a driver is unaware of the possibly quite serious ramifications involved.

• One only has to read the nature of the ‘declarations’ on a DGN that they are about to sign!

Anybody who signs any other box on a DGN might be letting themselves in for some eye-watering penalties under IMDG as enforced by the Merchant Shipping Act, as well as some other quite scary maritime laws to do with pollution (MARPOL) and safety (SOLAS) amongst some others.

What I’ve described in my two posts are only ADR with a British flavour as adapted by the DfT for UK national carriage and then required by UK law [CDG 2009 (as amended) which is made under the H&SAW etc Act 1974] and is therefore only valid for UK domestic transport use by UK registered vehicles.

Ignoring the IMDG (Sea) regs for now because of possible confusion, I’ll say that an international road journey between any 2 or more ADR member states (so no connection with the EU) involving the carriage of dangerous goods is subject only to ADR ( = an international agreement between 50+ countries) without interference from any national laws on the carriage of dangerous goods. There is complete separation of ‘national’ Vs 'international, without any grey areas, or the grey areas only being between some people’s ears.

When on an international journey carrying dangerous goods, any breaches of ADR are dealt with under the various national laws that exist. This is because if ADR is breached, people cannot rely on ADR to save their bacon.

Dave’s ADR trivia:
The UK signed up to ADR in 1967.

We’ll await the proper info from the OP on the substance to be carried in bulk… so now I’m off back to work.

[spardo]

Full of awe and wonderment at your two’s command of the situation. Last time I transported anything remotely dangerous they never even had a word for it, much less a load of regs to control it. Think it must have been that load of rusting barrels with evilly stinking liquid leaking out of them, back in 1960 something or other.

I hope @rubbercluck is suitably impressed and re-assured.

[franglais]

My ticket has long expired, and I was a driver, not a DGSA nor instructor.
I wouldn’t presume to offer the advice that @dieseldave can.

The OP has asked some good relevant questions, and sounds as if he is avoiding any wrong doing.

Yep, “back in the day” I remember orange plates being introduced. Previously carrying some very iffy stuff in very unsuitable ways.

[spardo]

My memory was faulty, no surprise there. Back in the '80s I drove a stepframe tilt with a container full of paint in tins for Micky White to Italy. At the police post at the bottom of the Blanc I was stopped as usual and when they saw what the cargo was they demanded my orange plate ( ), my flashing roof light ( ) and my fire extinguisher ( ) and around 300 ff. . as a fine for not having them with me.

Having none of these things I dropped the trailer and bounced back down to the service station where I purchased a lantern with a flashing red light on top, an aerosol fire extinguisher and a piece of orange card. I then asked for 300 ff on the card but the lone young lad on duty said he wasn’t allowed to do that without authorisation. ‘OK’ I said ‘if I ring the boss in England and he says it is ok, will that do?’ As it was a Sunday, I knew Micky would be on the golf course so I rang my mate Pete. I said to him to listen carefully and follow my instructions and I will explain when I get back home, I am going to hand you over to a young man who does not speak English, he will ask you in French if you will authorise the payment of 300 ff and you must answer only ‘Oui, bien sur’.

Off back up to the police I showed them my purchases and offered the fine, he looked at my pitiful collection for a long time with a strange, but resigned, expression on his face and finally said ‘d’accord’ and went back to his hut, probably relieved that his Sunday was nearly over.

[dieseldave]

[quote=“spardo, post:28, topic:240945”]
My memory was faulty, no surprise there. Back in the '80s I drove a stepframe tilt with a container full of paint in tins for Micky White to Italy. At the police post at the bottom of the Blanc … [/quote]
Hi Spardo,

I never met Micky White, so am I right in thinking he ran Whitetrux or similar named company? My memory might be playing tricks though.

I remember a police (or customs?) post that was a bit like a log cabin at the bottom of the French side of Mt Blanc, so just before the last climb up to the tunnel.

IIRC, my first trip that way was in about 1981/2ish. Happy days!!

My version of a duck and dive came at Menen, but that’s a whole different story.

[spardo]

@dieseldave

I never met Micky White, so am I right in thinking he ran Whitetrux or similar named company? My memory might be playing tricks though.

@dieseldave

IIRC, my first trip that way was in about 1981/2ish. Happy days!!

About the same time as me then and indeed they were. You remember correctly, I met him of course from time to time but he was a bit of an operator. He had all his 89s on Continental only so that he could tax them as private cars, we couldn’t even run with an empty trailer between Canterbury and Dover, all our trailers were dropped and picked up from there, handy for going home without having to wait for clearance.

But my abiding memory of him is when I once got to Calais, homeward bound, without a valid permit and was refused boarding. I rang Micky and he told me to pay the man, but on hearing that I had already tried that and the look I got told me I wasn’t going to try again, he said ok, leave the keys with it get your gear and get a lift home, which I did. He then dug a subbie out who had a permit, put him in his Bentley and went over on the first ferry, ‘saw’ the man in the office with the new permit and put the owner of it in my seat to bring it back.

My wagon was ready for me a couple of days later for me to go out again on the next great adventure.

When I finally left the job it was on good terms and only because I had personal family reasons for re-locating back to Nottingham, from where he had extracted me in the first place saying in a phone call at 10 am ‘can you be down here and on the 9 pm boat to Italy?’ I could and I was.

[adamale]

I didn’t spot anyone else suggest this: google the tunnel and ADR and you get a list of nice and naughty sweets. I had a old copy the handbook for Dartford, thick as a telephone book but handsize with all the concoctions, but probably before Lithium was invented as a battery type.

DGV-Listings-6.0-Web.pdf

[adamale]

I suspect your paperwork is economical with the facts.UN2794 would relate to ordinary car type batteries, usually lead acid.
Clearly a large quantity of lithium is it’s own hazard. According to this datasheet it’s UN3262

So maybe your firm needs training on ADR regs sooner than later after getting nicked by the HSE, EA, VOSA, ECILOP, Local Council, and your insurers possibly too.

[dieseldave]

Hi adamale,

Until the OP comes back with exactly what he’s been asked to carry, there is very little advice that can be given. I’ll use your excellent example to try to explain why, and I’ll guarantee that it will be a ‘google free’ zone.

For now, (and not usually available to googlers ) ADR talks in terms of substances and articles. A wet (usually lead/acid) battery is treated as a dangerous article rather than the dangerous substance that is in it.

From the MSDS that you gave as an example, I can tell you that there are three entries in ADR for the same UN number, the difference being whether it’s in PGI, PGII or PGIII. For this discussion, you can equate this as being how ‘strong’ the stuff is. Each of the three versions of this may have its own MSDS. (PGI = high danger, PGII = medium danger, PGIII = low danger)

The example you gave (PGII on the MSDS) and the PGI version are not authorised to be carried in a tipper (the OP’s boss’ mode of choice) so I’d be surprised whether a googled MSDS could tell you that in the first place. Whether the substance on the example MSDS can be carried through a category ‘C’ road tunnel is then an irrelevance because it’s illegal to carry it in a tipper in the first place.

However, the PGIII version of the substance shown on the MSDS you posted can be carried in a tipper and described on an ADR Transport Document like so:

UN 3262 CORROSIVE SOLID, BASIC, INORGANIC, N.O.S., (DILITHIUM OXIDE), 8, PGIII (E)

For carriage in a tipper ( = in bulk), the following special provisions for carriage all apply: VC1, VC2 and AP7. This substance can be carried through a category ‘C’ road tunnel.

The PGI and PGII versions of this substance can be carried in packages and be allowed through a category ‘C’ road tunnel as long as all relevant ADR requirements are met. (Too many to list here because we’re only dealing with an example.)

All three versions of this substance can be carried in approriately specced tankers, and be allowed through a category ‘C’ road tunnel.

Mystic Dave says:
When the OP gets back to us, I think he’ll provide a different UN number to the example you gave and hence the reason that my earlier posts stopped where they did.

If I’m correct, this will serve as a really good indicator of how and why googlers will most probably come up with inaccurate info, possibly misleading enough to earn a prohibition if discovered by DVSA/Police/HSE, as well as possible further troubles from the other entities you mentioned.

I hope this helps.

[adamale]

as I said in a different thread, I’m no expert on ADR. Yes google is a nightmare, you really have to crosscheck it which I hope I did, but I bow to your professional knowledge.
I’m thinking of doing the full ADR package later this year depending on time and how busy I am, so whether as part of the full course you get given any booklets like the old tunnel handbook, don’t know, though for £600 I hope to get something

[dieseldave]

@adamale

as I said in a different thread, I’m no expert on ADR. Yes google is a nightmare, you really have to crosscheck it which I hope I did, but I bow to your professional knowledge.
I’m thinking of doing the full ADR package later this year depending on time and how busy I am, so whether as part of the full course you get given any booklets like the old tunnel handbook, don’t know, though for £600 I hope to get something

Hi adamale,

Agreed!! The devil is in the detail, so it’s a good job (if you read my previous posts) that all this stuff isn’t a driver’s responsibility.

Just so you aren’t expecting too much detail, I’ll just say that you’re contemplating attending a driver’s ADR course whereas my posts above relate to the sender’s (consignor) and carrier’s (vehicle owner) responsibilities, and are not necessary for a driver to learn in that depth. I only went to that depth to (hopefully) reassure the OP that he didn’t need to bear the weight of the world on his shoulders.

Because it’s a driver’s ADR course, the instructor doesn’t need to be a DGSA, so may not be able to explain things as I can. This should cause you no concern because the instructor is qualified to teach what he/she teaches and is sometimes externally audited to make sure he/she covers the required syllabus, which means sticking to the required topics at the right depth for drivers. There will then be multi-choice exams (for drivers) to make sure that drivers have understoood the drivers’ course.

To address the other point you made, it is one of the conditions upon ADR course providers that they give you some kind of handout, which becomes yours to take away with you.

Bosses and office staff are required to be ‘custom’ trained (and have proof of it) as befits their role and responsibilities in the company for which they work. As you can see, there wouldn’t be a one size fits all course for bosses and office staff because different comapnies carry different ‘stuff,’ as well as there being different levels of supervisors and managers.

BTW, you can get 21 or 28hrs of DCPC, depending where you’re up to with DCPC and which ADR modules you choose. It’s worth considering this because you’re going to be there anyway. There are different choices open to ADR providers regarding how they timetable a course and what DCPC they’ll offer, so it will pay you to ask the right questions when you decide to start asking around. Another tip is to ask whether any given price includes VAT and exam fees because not all providers are as transparent in this regard. For instance, the is NO VAT to be added to exam fees. Just so you can evaluate my advice, I am not an ADR provider, but a self-employed specialised freelancer.

Anyway, now back to topic… now where’s the OP disappeard to?