We all know and have read countless times that if you do, lets say for exaple a 13:01 day that you are legally then considered to have had a reduced daily rest, regardless of wether you have 9 hours or 15 hours off in real time following that period on duty as its calculated on a 24 hour period.
I’m presuming that the same is also the case going in the opposite direction then? If I do a 12 hour shift, and have 9 actual hours off following that shift, that will be considered an 11hr non-reduced break, even though you really only took 9 off because 12 hours duty leaves 12 hours of rest periods combined time on either side of that duty time in the 24 hour period?
robinhood_1984:
We all know and have read countless times that if you do, lets say for exaple a 13:01 day that you are legally then considered to have had a reduced daily rest, regardless of wether you have 9 hours or 15 hours off in real time following that period on duty as its calculated on a 24 hour period.
I’m presuming that the same is also the case going in the opposite direction then? If I do a 12 hour shift, and have 9 actual hours off following that shift, that will be considered an 11hr non-reduced break, even though you really only took 9 off because 12 hours duty leaves 12 hours of rest periods combined time on either side of that duty time in the 24 hour period?
No because when you start a new shift you start a new “period of 24 hours”.
If your period of rest is less than 11 hours but 9 hours or more it’s a reduced daily rest period.
robinhood_1984:
We all know and have read countless times that if you do, lets say for exaple a 13:01 day that you are legally then considered to have had a reduced daily rest, regardless of wether you have 9 hours or 15 hours off in real time following that period on duty as its calculated on a 24 hour period.
I’m presuming that the same is also the case going in the opposite direction then? If I do a 12 hour shift, and have 9 actual hours off following that shift, that will be considered an 11hr non-reduced break, even though you really only took 9 off because 12 hours duty leaves 12 hours of rest periods combined time on either side of that duty time in the 24 hour period?
Are you describing a split rest, where if you can squeeze a 3 hour rest period into your day you can then take a 9 hour rest period and it counts as a full rest period?
If so then 3 hours must be taken together.
robinhood_1984:
We all know and have read countless times that if you do, lets say for exaple a 13:01 day that you are legally then considered to have had a reduced daily rest, regardless of wether you have 9 hours or 15 hours off in real time following that period on duty as its calculated on a 24 hour period.
I’m presuming that the same is also the case going in the opposite direction then? If I do a 12 hour shift, and have 9 actual hours off following that shift, that will be considered an 11hr non-reduced break, even though you really only took 9 off because 12 hours duty leaves 12 hours of rest periods combined time on either side of that duty time in the 24 hour period?
No, a 24-hour period can be less than 24 hours. The requirement is 11 hours rest, can be reduced to 9 hours 3 times between etc, etc, within 24 hours of ending your previous rest period. In your scenario you only have 9 hours within the 24-hour period.
Thankyou.
What I’m trying to get at but describing very badly is that while in a 24 hour period, by doing a 13-15hr shift your daily rest is by default 9 hours as thats the amount of remaining hours you have in that 24hr period, regardless of how long you actually have off at the end of it, because lets say you have 12 hours on rest, three of those hours will be in the next days card. So baring that in mind, that next day if I were to do a 13 hour shift and then have 9 actual hours off…for arguments sake starting duty at 3am…doing 13 hours of shift and finishing at 4pm then booking off for the night, that card would have 11 hours of rest on it, even if the actual rest times leading up to, and following the shift were 9 actual hours each time.
I’ve always worked it that I have 3 15hr spreads a week and 3 9hr reductions that dont have to be connected to each other. By that I mean that if I do a 15hr spread, it doesn’t physically mean I’ve lost a 9hr reduced break later in the week, it just means that it might follow a 13hr spread so that by the weeks end all cards or 24hr periods on the digi card will equal 13hrs duty time with 11hrs rest and up to three times 15hrs duty time with 9hrs rest time.
Lets look at what will be on each analogue card
Card 1 starts at say 0600 and stops at 1800 - it shows rest of 12 hours on it
Then mr VOSA man asks for card 2 …
Card 2 shows a start of 0300 and a finish of 1500 - it shows a rest of 12 hours on it
Mr VOSA man looks at the start time on card 1 (0600) and then the start time on card 2 (0300) and sees that the start time is earlier on card 2
Mr VOSA man then takes the finish time from card 1 (1800) to the start time on card 2 (0300) and sees that there is only 9 hours between the two times so that is the amount of rest taken between the two shifts = reduced daily rest
Mr VOSA man will firstly look at the rest taken in that first 24 hour period which is from 0600 to the following 0600 and then look for what rest has been taken between the two shifts - If either is less than 11 hours then it is a reduced daily rest
This is one of the reasons why drivers must carry the last 28 calender days of cards/records with them
I am probably not the best at explaining this but I hope I have helped
robinhood_1984:
What I’m trying to get at but describing very badly is that while in a 24 hour period, by doing a 13-15hr shift your daily rest is by default 9 hours as thats the amount of remaining hours you have in that 24hr period, regardless of how long you actually have off at the end of it, because lets say you have 12 hours on rest, three of those hours will be in the next days card. So baring that in mind, that next day if I were to do a 13 hour shift and then have 9 actual hours off…for arguments sake starting duty at 3am…doing 13 hours of shift and finishing at 4pm then booking off for the night, that card would have 11 hours of rest on it, even if the actual rest times leading up to, and following the shift were 9 actual hours each time.I’ve always worked it that I have 3 15hr spreads a week and 3 9hr reductions that dont have to be connected to each other. By that I mean that if I do a 15hr spread, it doesn’t physically mean I’ve lost a 9hr reduced break later in the week, it just means that it might follow a 13hr spread so that by the weeks end all cards or 24hr periods on the digi card will equal 13hrs duty time with 11hrs rest and up to three times 15hrs duty time with 9hrs rest time.
I think you’re confusing yourself with this talk of cards.
Your daily rest period has to be within the 24 hour period from start of shift, if you go over the 13 hour shift from start to finish it’s a reduced daily rest period because you cannot have 11 hours rest within that same period of 24 hours.
Likewise if your shift is 13 hours and you have 9 hours rest before restarting work it’s a reduced daily rest because you’ve started a new period of 24 hours when you restart work for the following shift.
If I’m understanding correctly, you seem to be thinking that any rest period before starting a shift that has not been required or used as a daily rest period for the previous shift can be attributed to the following shift, it cannot be used like that.
When you start a new shift you start a new period of 24 hours and the previous period of 24 hours ends regardless of how long it actually was.
For the daily rest requirements the period of 24 hours starts when you start a new shift and ends either 24 hours later or when you next start a new shift whichever comes first.
It’s this and only this new period of 24 hours that runs from the start of the shift that should contain your daily rest period.
There are absolutely no circumstances in which rest taken before a shift starts can be attributed to the daily rest period for that shift and other than when multi-manning there are no circumstances where your daily rest period can legally be outside of the period of 24 hours commencing at the start of shift.
robinhood_1984:
I’ve always worked it that I have 3 15hr spreads a week and 3 9hr reductions that dont have to be connected to each other.
This way of thinking is a big mistake that is likely to lead to serious problems for you if you ever get checked by VOSA, if your company have not been giving you infringements and correcting your understanding of the regulations I can only assume that either they don’t do proper checks or you’ve been very lucky not to have failed to comply with the daily rest requirements.
Each period of 24 hours is individual and you cannot average them over the week.
robinhood_1984:
What I’m trying to get at but describing very badly is that while in a 24 hour period, by doing a 13-15hr shift your daily rest is by default 9 hours as thats the amount of remaining hours you have in that 24hr period, regardless of how long you actually have off at the end of it, because lets say you have 12 hours on rest, three of those hours will be in the next days card.
They won’t be, they aren’t ‘on’ any card. Twenty-four hour periods don’t have to be connected, they don’t start until you end a rest period. So say you start at 06:00 Monday and work until 21:00 then take 12 hours rest, starting again at 09:00 and work until 22:00 then take 9 hours rest before starting again at 07:00 Wednesday. You have used two reduced rest periods and your first 24-hour period ran from 06:00 Monday to 06:00 Tuesday and your second ran from 09:00 Tuesday to 07:00 Wednesday. The 3 hours between 06:00 and 09:00 Tuesday are not used in calculating the rest in any 24-hour period and can’t be added to the 9 hours at the end of Tuesday’s shift to make it a non reduced rest.
robinhood_1984:
I’ve always worked it that I have 3 15hr spreads a week and 3 9hr reductions that dont have to be connected to each other. By that I mean that if I do a 15hr spread, it doesn’t physically mean I’ve lost a 9hr reduced break later in the week, it just means that it might follow a 13hr spread so that by the weeks end all cards or 24hr periods on the digi card will equal 13hrs duty time with 11hrs rest and up to three times 15hrs duty time with 9hrs rest time.
Do a 15 hour spread and you have ‘lost’ a reduced rest, the rest period must be continuous, unless using split daily rest, and you can’t’ say I had 2 hours before I started the shift to go with the 9 hours after so that’s 11 hours on this card so it isn’t reduced.
Coffeeholic:
Do a 15 hour spread and you have ‘lost’ a reduced rest, the rest period must be continuous, unless using split daily rest, and you can’t’ say I had 2 hours before I started the shift to go with the 9 hours after so that’s 11 hours on this card so it isn’t reduced.
So what is basically being said here is that if Monday I do a 13hr shift, have 9 off, Tuesday do a 13 hour shift, have 9 off, wednesday do a 13hr shift and have 9 off…I’ve then used all my reductions and cant therefore do a potential 15hr shift for Thursday, Friday or Saturday despite the fact that 11hr hour rest periods would be taken in between?
tachograph:
This way of thinking is a big mistake that is likely to lead to serious problems for you if you ever get checked by VOSA, if your company have not been giving you infringements and correcting your understanding of the regulations I can only assume that either they don’t do proper checks or you’ve been very lucky not to have failed to comply with the daily rest requirements.Each period of 24 hours is individual and you cannot average them over the week.
Well this is just it, its never been brought to my attention by anybody. I went to Canada in 2009 and up until that point had only ever used old paper tachos, the company never analysed them but I got checked by vosa quite a few times over the three and a half period that I had driven and nothing was ever said, even after lengthy analysis on their machine. I’ve now started driving again temporarily in the UK and I’m on a digi card and I’ve so far done four weeks and I have had absolutely no infringements at all when my card is downloaded, totally clean every time.
robinhood_1984:
Coffeeholic:
Do a 15 hour spread and you have ‘lost’ a reduced rest, the rest period must be continuous, unless using split daily rest, and you can’t’ say I had 2 hours before I started the shift to go with the 9 hours after so that’s 11 hours on this card so it isn’t reduced.So what is basically being said here is that if Monday I do a 13hr shift, have 9 off, Tuesday do a 13 hour shift, have 9 off, wednesday do a 13hr shift and have 9 off…I’ve then used all my reductions and cant therefore do a potential 15hr shift for Thursday, Friday or Saturday despite the fact that 11hr hour rest periods would be taken in between?
Correct, that would be six reduced rest periods between weekly rest periods. You couldn’t do the 15 hour shifts with 11 hours rest because 15+11=26 and Duty+Rest=Maximum 24 is what is allowed.
Can I ask why you do 13 or 15 hours then stop for a rest period rather than say 17 or 19 hours? Remember the regulations make absolutely no mention of 15 or 13 hour days, they make no mention of maximum duty time at all, and only specify the amount of continuous rest required in a 24-hour period. If they didn’t specify the minimum rest in 24 hours then there would be nothing to stop you doing 17, 18, 19 hours or more then having 11 hours off.
robinhood_1984:
Coffeeholic:
Do a 15 hour spread and you have ‘lost’ a reduced rest, the rest period must be continuous, unless using split daily rest, and you can’t’ say I had 2 hours before I started the shift to go with the 9 hours after so that’s 11 hours on this card so it isn’t reduced.So what is basically being said here is that if Monday I do a 13hr shift, have 9 off, Tuesday do a 13 hour shift, have 9 off, wednesday do a 13hr shift and have 9 off…I’ve then used all my reductions and cant therefore do a potential 15hr shift for Thursday, Friday or Saturday despite the fact that 11hr hour rest periods would be taken in between?
That’s exactly what’s being said 
The period of 24 hours is very important to understand, it begins at the start of shift and ends when you start a new shift or at the end of a length of time of 24 hours duration, whichever comes first.
robinhood_1984:
tachograph:
This way of thinking is a big mistake that is likely to lead to serious problems for you if you ever get checked by VOSA, if your company have not been giving you infringements and correcting your understanding of the regulations I can only assume that either they don’t do proper checks or you’ve been very lucky not to have failed to comply with the daily rest requirements.Each period of 24 hours is individual and you cannot average them over the week.
Well this is just it, its never been brought to my attention by anybody. I went to Canada in 2009 and up until that point had only ever used old paper tachos, the company never analysed them but I got checked by vosa quite a few times over the three and a half period that I had driven and nothing was ever said, even after lengthy analysis on their machine. I’ve now started driving again temporarily in the UK and I’m on a digi card and I’ve so far done four weeks and I have had absolutely no infringements at all when my card is downloaded, totally clean every time.
I can only assume that you’ve been very lucky and in-spite of misunderstanding the regulations have not failed to comply with them.
I don’t know if you’ve seen this but it may be worth reading
Coffeeholic:
robinhood_1984:
Coffeeholic:
Do a 15 hour spread and you have ‘lost’ a reduced rest, the rest period must be continuous, unless using split daily rest, and you can’t’ say I had 2 hours before I started the shift to go with the 9 hours after so that’s 11 hours on this card so it isn’t reduced.So what is basically being said here is that if Monday I do a 13hr shift, have 9 off, Tuesday do a 13 hour shift, have 9 off, wednesday do a 13hr shift and have 9 off…I’ve then used all my reductions and cant therefore do a potential 15hr shift for Thursday, Friday or Saturday despite the fact that 11hr hour rest periods would be taken in between?
Correct, that would be six reduced rest periods between weekly rest periods. You couldn’t do the 15 hour shifts with 11 hours rest because 15+11=26 and Duty+Rest=maximum 24 is what is allowed.
Can I ask why you do 13 or 15 hours then stop for a rest period rather than say 17 or 19 hours? Remember the regulations make absolutely no mention of 15 or 13 hour days, they make no mention of maximum duty time at all, and only specify the amount of continuous rest required in a 24-hour period. If they didn’t specify the minimum rest in 24 hours then there would be nothing to stop you doing 17, 18, 19 hours or more then having 11 hours off.
I know its all relevant to the rest hours within the 24 hour period but where I seem to have got mixed up is how the 24hour period is defined. wether its fixed at midnight to midnight, or is rolling from the start of the shift to 24 hours from that point. I know when vosa used to look at my old paper cards, they’d simply look at the rest line on the tacho, which ofcourse would be part of the rest period before and part after the duty time shown on the tacho and by going on that basis my above example would be fine because I’d only have 3 cards showing 9 hours rest and 3 cards showing 11 hours rest despite 9hr breaks following 13 hours spreads, or 11hr breaks following 15hr spreads or a mix and match of the two. Anyway, thanks for clearing things up, it has helped.
tachograph:
I can only assume that you’ve been very lucky and in-spite of misunderstanding the regulations have not failed to comply with them.
Oh well…more sleep for me then. I have no problem with doing 15hr shifts but I hate having short rest periods as I can sleep for England once my head is down. The nature of my job often means that after a 15hr shift, there is no need to actually only have nine hours off as I’m maybe waiting for a trailer off a boat and I had to do more than 13 hours the day before to make sure that trailer made it on the nights ferry, or the place I’m parked outside of doesn’t open until I’ve had 11 or more hours off etc. Thanks for your help!
robinhood_1984:
The nature of my job often means that after a 15hr shift, there is no need to actually only have nine hours off
I am trying to work out if you realise that doing a 15 and then having 11 off still makes it a reduced daily rest 
ROG:
robinhood_1984:
The nature of my job often means that after a 15hr shift, there is no need to actually only have nine hours offI am trying to work out if you realise that doing a 15 and then having 11 off still makes it a reduced daily rest
He does, he said so earlier.
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
robinhood_1984:
The nature of my job often means that after a 15hr shift, there is no need to actually only have nine hours offI am trying to work out if you realise that doing a 15 and then having 11 off still makes it a reduced daily rest
He does, he said so earlier.
…and since then have acknowledged and thanked yourself and tachograph for setting me straight, meaning that yes I do know it is still a reduced daily rest.
robinhood_1984:
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
robinhood_1984:
The nature of my job often means that after a 15hr shift, there is no need to actually only have nine hours offI am trying to work out if you realise that doing a 15 and then having 11 off still makes it a reduced daily rest
He does, he said so earlier.
…and since then have acknowledged and thanked yourself and tachograph for setting me straight, meaning that yes I do know it is still a reduced daily rest.
Indeed, that’s what I meant by you saying so earlier, and your thanks are appreciated.
Unfortunately pointing out the bleeding obvious to ROG is an all too regular fact of life in this forum.
Thankyou.
Coffeeholic:
robinhood_1984:
Coffeeholic:
ROG:
robinhood_1984:
The nature of my job often means that after a 15hr shift, there is no need to actually only have nine hours offI am trying to work out if you realise that doing a 15 and then having 11 off still makes it a reduced daily rest
He does, he said so earlier.
…and since then have acknowledged and thanked yourself and tachograph for setting me straight, meaning that yes I do know it is still a reduced daily rest.
Indeed, that’s what I meant by you saying so earlier, and your thanks are appreciated.
Unfortunately pointing out the bleeding obvious to ROG is an all too regular fact of life in this forum.
Thankyou.
Haha well no comment there! Thanks again.
Wasn’t it better in the old days when you could finish your day, pull your card, put a new one in in the morning and off you went.
Which opened up lots of opportunities if you drove a MAN