jessejazza:
Even if the firm allowed for break time how does that work out with the DVSA printout. One infringement for each day over 13 hours (after the first 3 at over 13 hours).
I didn’t really take that long to put it together. I’ve obviously checked back to see if you had seen it and replied.
In answer to your further question, rather confusingly breaks during a shift make no difference to your daily rest (okay so split daily rest does, but apart from that). The relevant times are the start and finish times only. Although keeping under 13 isn’t the whole story as you also need to make sure your next start time isn’t brought forward enough to affect your 11 hours rest.
It may be a case of taking the couple of infringements on the chin and being aware in the future.
Noremac:
jessejazza:
Even if the firm allowed for break time how does that work out with the DVSA printout. One infringement for each day over 13 hours (after the first 3 at over 13 hours).
I didn’t really take that long to put it together. I’ve obviously checked back to see if you had seen it and replied.
In answer to your further question, rather confusingly breaks during a shift make no difference to your daily rest (okay so split daily rest does, but apart from that). The relevant times are the start and finish times only. Although keeping under 13 isn’t the whole story as you also need to make sure your next start time isn’t brought forward enough to affect your 11 hours rest.
It may be a case of taking the couple of infringements on the chin and being aware in the future.
Well some folk say after 28 days that’s clear. I was told a couple of years ago that if DVSA go to the workplace then one can be fined for any infringements for up to six months, and more recently if they go to the office then one can be fined for any infringements up to a year.
I suppose at one’s start time a MUST DO each day is to note exactly the finish time. Doing Class 2 for four years I didn’t get any infringements until I started doing recovery work - then one gets two/three infringements per night (insufficient rest, which triggers excessive working hours because the two are joined together, and no break (WT) possibly e.g. (one job I did at a terraced house) you might be trying to get a drug driver’s motor out of a living room left on full lock - one’s truck blocking the road whilst winching. You can’t stop and take a break when the road is blocked. I used to do a printout, note police job number and explain the circumstances. But the found out the office didn’t submit printout to DVSA - so I have 20 pages of infringements on my record.
1 min, 5 or 10 mins over shouldn’t really be a big deal… but it throws an infringement which counts.
A roadside check will look at 28 days. A DVSA “visit” will look way beyond this.
5 or 10 minutes over ‘occasionaly’ may be no great problem, but frequent infringements look bad. A half hour may be ignored if you are otherwise squeaky clean, but result in a bust if you’ve a record of minor infringements.
I meant just sign the infringement when your employer presents it, which is the normal procedure.
As long as you stay on top of things I’m sure you will be fine going forward.
Franglais:
A roadside check will look at 28 days. A DVSA “visit” will look way beyond this.
5 or 10 minutes over ‘occasionaly’ may be no great problem, but frequent infringements look bad. A half hour may be ignored if you are otherwise squeaky clean, but result in a bust if you’ve a record of minor infringements.
I have certainly got that for the year i worked in recovery. If the firm do not present the explanation to DVSA. Doing accidents in the early morning (00:00 to 05:00) triggers insufficient rest and adding the two days working hours. I thought the other evening one is best to PULL the card to stop anything being written to it. One is on an emergency and you have to go… and you would not be stopped - as one is under Police instruction. DVSA produce a most misleading document 128 page doc saying one is exempt and then say one is on EU rules (or domestic within a 100km radius of base). The statement in DfT Dec 2018 (last review) stand regarding unforeseen circumstances
“9. According to the European Court of Justice this provision will only apply in cases where it unexpectedly becomes impossible to comply with the rules on drivers’ hours during the course of a journey. In other words, planned breaches of the rules are not allowed. This means that when an unforeseen event occurs, it would be for the driver to decide whether it was necessary to depart from the rules.”
Noremac:
I meant just sign the infringement when your employer presents it, which is the normal procedure.
As long as you stay on top of things I’m sure you will be fine going forward.
What happens if one refuses to sign and just provides a written explanation on tacho printout or paper? I’ve been googling WTD and can’t find a statement regarding starting Mon 00:00. I’ve no doubt you are correct and hopeless me in CPC that I have not asked - I have just always thought it was from the start of one’s work cycle.
jessejazza:
Franglais:
A roadside check will look at 28 days. A DVSA “visit” will look way beyond this.
5 or 10 minutes over ‘occasionaly’ may be no great problem, but frequent infringements look bad. A half hour may be ignored if you are otherwise squeaky clean, but result in a bust if you’ve a record of minor infringements.
I have certainly got that for the year i worked in recovery. If the firm do not present the explanation to DVSA. Doing accidents in the early morning (00:00 to 05:00) triggers insufficient rest and adding the two days working hours. I thought the other evening one is best to PULL the card to stop anything being written to it. One is on an emergency and you have to go… and you would not be stopped - as one is under Police instruction. DVSA produce a most misleading document 128 page doc saying one is exempt and then say one is on EU rules (or domestic within a 100km radius of base). The statement in DfT Dec 2018 (last review) stand regarding unforeseen circumstances
“9. According to the European Court of Justice this provision will only apply in cases where it unexpectedly becomes impossible to comply with the rules on drivers’ hours during the course of a journey. In other words, planned breaches of the rules are not allowed. This means that when an unforeseen event occurs, it would be for the driver to decide whether it was necessary to depart from the rules.”
Hold on, you’re talking about two or more different things here.
I was referring to the rules on EU driving. That appears to apply to your current job?
.
Some, recovery work is not under EU rules. I won’t say whether or not you were in your previous job.
.
If you are working EU rules, never pull your card. Instant “sense if humour failure” by the authorities.
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Edit
And going on a callout when you are on call is hardly an unforseen circumstance, surely?
jessejazza:
What happens if one refuses to sign and just provides a written explanation on tacho printout or paper?
Nothing at all (as far as DVSA are concerned). The sole purpose of the signature is to show that the company have complied with their obligation to point out your error.
Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk
Franglais:
jessejazza:
Franglais:
A roadside check will look at 28 days. A DVSA “visit” will look way beyond this.
5 or 10 minutes over ‘occasionaly’ may be no great problem, but frequent infringements look bad. A half hour may be ignored if you are otherwise squeaky clean, but result in a bust if you’ve a record of minor infringements.
I have certainly got that for the year i worked in recovery. If the firm do not present the explanation to DVSA. Doing accidents in the early morning (00:00 to 05:00) triggers insufficient rest and adding the two days working hours. I thought the other evening one is best to PULL the card to stop anything being written to it. One is on an emergency and you have to go… and you would not be stopped - as one is under Police instruction. DVSA produce a most misleading document 128 page doc saying one is exempt and then say one is on EU rules (or domestic within a 100km radius of base). The statement in DfT Dec 2018 (last review) stand regarding unforeseen circumstances
“9. According to the European Court of Justice this provision will only apply in cases where it unexpectedly becomes impossible to comply with the rules on drivers’ hours during the course of a journey. In other words, planned breaches of the rules are not allowed. This means that when an unforeseen event occurs, it would be for the driver to decide whether it was necessary to depart from the rules.”
Hold on, you’re talking about two or more different things here.
I was referring to the rules on EU driving. That appears to apply to your current job?
.
Some, recovery work is not under EU rules. I won’t say whether or not you were in your previous job.
.
If you are working EU rules, never pull your card. Instant “sense if humour failure” by the authorities.
…
…
Edit
And going on a callout when you are on call is hardly an unforseen circumstance, surely?
Indeed we are getting off on a tangent.
An accident recovery call out perhaps involving 2-3 motors could well be a 5-10 hour stint. Initially one would be required for a presence while Police do their assessment of the scene - measuring distance between vehicles perhaps winching one out of the ditch for examination before loading. Forensic may be present to also do their work. LWB vans can be vans carrying plants (high value type that some folk grow in lofts)… driver perhaps having had a snort beforehand. Lots of variables. Maybe HIAB needed. Winching a car or van onto one’s recovery truck a mere 15-30 mins depending on the damage.
jessejazza:
Noremac:
I meant just sign the infringement when your employer presents it, which is the normal procedure.
As long as you stay on top of things I’m sure you will be fine going forward.
What happens if one refuses to sign and just provides a written explanation on tacho printout or paper? I’ve been googling WTD and can’t find a statement regarding starting Mon 00:00. I’ve no doubt you are correct and hopeless me in CPC that I have not asked - I have just always thought it was from the start of one’s work cycle.
The procedure when having a valid reason for not having compliant data on your card is a matter between you and your employer.
You can check the legislation (Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005), where a “week” is defined as follows:
“week” means a period of seven days beginning at midnight between Sunday and Monday;
Noremac:
jessejazza:
Noremac:
I meant just sign the infringement when your employer presents it, which is the normal procedure.
As long as you stay on top of things I’m sure you will be fine going forward.
What happens if one refuses to sign and just provides a written explanation on tacho printout or paper? I’ve been googling WTD and can’t find a statement regarding starting Mon 00:00. I’ve no doubt you are correct and hopeless me in CPC that I have not asked - I have just always thought it was from the start of one’s work cycle.
The procedure when having a valid reason for not having compliant data on your card is a matter between you and your employer.
You can check the legislation (Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005), where a “week” is defined as follows:
“week” means a period of seven days beginning at midnight between Sunday and Monday;
Thanks… found it now.
So Mon, Tue, Wed were rest days then I could do Thu >13, Fri >13, Sat >13, Sun <13, Mon >13.
Until getting C+E I worked Mon-Fri for almost four years and never did more than 12 hours per day apart from a breakdown once excluding the mistake year doing recovery.
jessejazza:
Thanks… found it now.
So Mon, Tue, Wed were rest days then I could do Thu >13, Fri >13, Sat >13, Sun <13, Mon >13.
Until getting C+E I worked Mon-Fri for almost four years and never did more than 12 hours per day apart from a breakdown once excluding the mistake year doing recovery.
I am going to sign off the thread now, but no you couldn’t reduce your rest more than three times between weekly rest periods.
The EU rules are a separate set of rules to the working time rules. You need to adhere to both.
There are 2 sets of time periods
WEEK = sunday midnight to sunday midnight
BETWEEN WEEKLY RESTS = from the end of one weekly rest to the start of the next weekly rest
Check which rules fit into those time periods and that you have complied with them
ROG:
There are 2 sets of time periods
WEEK = sunday midnight to sunday midnight
BETWEEN WEEKLY RESTS = from the end of one weekly rest to the start of the next weekly rest
Check which rules fit into those time periods and that you have complied with them
If the WTD week is from Mon 00:01 I have no infringements apart from the maximum EU working hours in any 7 day period is 72 hours… does the tacho record that?
jessejazza:
ROG:
There are 2 sets of time periods
WEEK = sunday midnight to sunday midnight
BETWEEN WEEKLY RESTS = from the end of one weekly rest to the start of the next weekly rest
Check which rules fit into those time periods and that you have complied with them
If the WTD week is from Mon 00:01 I have no infringements apart from the maximum EU working hours in any 7 day period is 72 hours… does the tacho record that?
WTD max work/drive hours is 60 for the WEEK (not any 7 day period) = but no authority is interested or has any sanctions listed for breaches
The EU regs on the other hand … very interested if you break those rules and have plenty of sanctions for those
ROG:
jessejazza:
ROG:
There are 2 sets of time periods
WEEK = sunday midnight to sunday midnight
BETWEEN WEEKLY RESTS = from the end of one weekly rest to the start of the next weekly rest
Check which rules fit into those time periods and that you have complied with them
If the WTD week is from Mon 00:01 I have no infringements apart from the maximum EU working hours in any 7 day period is 72 hours… does the tacho record that?
WTD max work/drive hours is 60 for the WEEK (not any 7 day period) = but no authority is interested or has any sanctions listed for breaches
The EU regs on the other hand … very interested if you break those rules and have plenty of sanctions for those
Since you replied I have been reading into the matter of max working hours for drivers. Whilst some of you have correctly pointed out the 60 hours limit Mon 00:01 to Sun 23:59 - I question the interpretation regarding working between weekly rests over a two calendar week cycle. One is still governed by the UK and European law max 48 hours averaged out over 17 weeks. The 60 hours is intended as a limit like 56 hours driving - which in practice one should never reach.
The HSE document that 60 hours per week will give rise to 23% increase in health risks and this applies to a working week and the same surely applies to driving. To do a shift Sat to Wed and potentially work 14h59 per day results in 74h57 which is way beyond the legal working limit. I have done some googling regarding case law but not found anything reported - when there have been accidents it seems the working time has not been investigated.
As for the 48 hour averaged work time one can always opt out which is what I will do.
Drivers are not expected to keep track of the rolling average - that is for the company admin dept to do using their computer systems
Remember that WTD has not been enforced by any authority since it started many years ago
The EU told the UK they had to introduce it but did not tell the UK they had to introduce sanctions to enforce it which is why the DVSA do have any sanctions in their list for breaches
Companies will often give sanctions for infringements but in reality they are wasting their time legally
Just make sure you comply with the tacho regs
ROG:
a] Drivers are not expected to keep track of the rolling average - that is for the company admin dept to do using their computer systems
b] Remember that WTD has not been enforced by any authority since it started many years ago
The EU told the UK they had to introduce it but did not tell the UK they had to introduce sanctions to enforce it which is why the DVSA don’t have any sanctions in their list for breaches
c] Companies will often give sanctions for infringements but in reality they are wasting their time legally
d] Just make sure you comply with the tacho regs
Many thanks for your response.
a] yep and I have learnt DO NOT. I log all my times and use a good friend ‘Time Calculator’ on my phone (great app, free and no ads - a must have really!). Just a calculator for hrs and mins… saves brain power when one is already knackered.
b] I didn’t know that so many thanks.
c] I follow the point you are making BUT there are firms (like one I worked for on agency for a couple of weeks who record such, TWO and it’s a disciplinary).
d] Point taken and just keep fingers crossed.