6hr break rule?

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
102

Roymondo:
But surely he has clearly stated that he “worked a total of 6 hrs & 12 mins” (including 3h 20m driving) - He didn’t say he was “at work” for 6h12m. If he worked for a total of 6h 12m on that day then he should have taken at least 30 minutes break (or 2x 15 minutes) at some point in the shift. He didn’t, so he got an infringement.

What he said was “I worked a total of 6hrs & 12mins a couple of weeks back (3h 20m driving) and had a 20 minute break around the 2hr mark” which suggest to me that the 6 hours 12 minutes was inclusive of the break.

In my reply I said “you only did 5 hours and 52 minutes of working time” which has not been disputed so…

103

But where did the figure of 6h 12m come from? Not “6 and a quarter hours” or “just over 6 hours”. I’m thinking that the “worked a total of 6hrs & 12mins” is being quoted straight from the infringement report…

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104

Roymondo:
But where did the figure of 6h 12m come from? Not “6 and a quarter hours” or “just over 6 hours”. I’m thinking that the “worked a total of 6hrs & 12mins” is being quoted straight from the infringement report…

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The 6h 12m was taken from my infringement report

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105

Actrosman:
The 6h 12m was taken from my infringement report

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In that case you can safely ignore the well-intentioned comments above about not needing a break and employers writing their own rules.

The simple answer to the question you posed is “Yes, legally you should have remained at work and booked a further 15 minute break (followed by at least another minute of Work).”

On the odd occasion it has happened to me I simply booked off as normal and did a manual entry to include the “missing” break (and 2 minutes of work) next time I put my card in :wink:

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106

Many of our hgv drivers only work an 8 hour shift taking a 15 minute break at around the 6 hour point they only drive 4 hours in the 8 hour shift. The analysis reports always come back as an infringement made stating that between 6 and 9 hours of working time means you should of taken 30 minute of break in total.

Is this right?

Can the infringement be explained and written off the report or should the driver show 30 minute of break time in total

107

J-BONE:
Many of our hgv drivers only work an 8 hour shift taking a 15 minute break at around the 6 hour point they only drive 4 hours in the 8 hour shift. The analysis reports always come back as an infringement made stating that between 6 and 9 hours of working time means you should of taken 30 minute of break in total.

Is this right?

Can the infringement be explained and written off the report or should the driver show 30 minute of break time in total

If they’re doing an 8 hour shift with a 15 minute break they’re doing 7 hours 45 minutes working time, that requires a total break/breaks of at-least 30 minnutes.

So yes it is right.

The 30 minute break can be taken in 2 parts of at-least 15 minutes each, a 15 minute break should be taken before exceeding 6 hours working time and breaks for the WTD cannot be taken at the immediate start or end of the shift.

108

So in this case the infringement letter is justified and a driver must show the second 15 minute break on their digi card?

109

J-BONE:
So in this case the infringement letter is justified and a driver must show the second 15 minute break on their digi card?

Yes that’s correct.

110

In ref to it being correct if a driver has to vacate his vehicle and withdraw his card on return to the depot for it to be shunted and speedily reloaded for the next shift, if the driver was forced to take his second break in the canteen would that be acceptable to be written against his infringement letter?

Would he need to do a manual entry or a printout explaining his lack of recorded break

111

J-BONE:
In ref to it being correct if a driver has to vacate his vehicle and withdraw his card on return to the depot for it to be shunted and speedily reloaded for the next shift, if the driver was forced to take his second break in the canteen would that be acceptable to be written against his infringement letter?

Would he need to do a manual entry or a printout explaining his lack of recorded break

If for any reason a driver needs to eject the driver card before the end of the shift a manual entry covering the time the card was out of the tachograph should be done the next time the card is inserted into a digital tachograph.

Be aware that WTD breaks must interrupt the working time therefore a break at the immediate start of end of the shift will not count for the WTD.

A break at the end of the shift must show at-least a minute of other work or driving after the break for the break to count.

112

J-BONE:
In ref to it being correct if a driver has to vacate his vehicle and withdraw his card on return to the depot for it to be shunted and speedily reloaded for the next shift, if the driver was forced to take his second break in the canteen would that be acceptable to be written against his infringement letter?

Would he need to do a manual entry or a printout explaining his lack of recorded break

It is perfectly acceptable for him to write whatever he likes on the infringement letter (including writing nothing at all) - it won’t make the slightest bit of difference. The sole purpose of said letter is to notify the driver of the infringement (and also to provide proof that it has been brought to his attention - hence the request to sign and return it).

The correct place to write written explanations is on the chart for the day in question (if on analogue tachos) or on a printout (if on digital tachos). Having said that, the correct way to deal with this would be for the driver to make a manual entry using the manual input facility of the tacho at the start of his next shift.

113

Ok…
This is obviously the WTD your talking about…
Well firstly, its a DIRECTIVE, not a law, and so as far as I know, you can only be prosecuted for breaking the law.

Next the question in hand:
A worker must take 15 minutes break before 6 hours of DUTY time, if the shift is of 6-9 hours is length a worker must have another 15 minute break before the end of 9 hours of DUTY equalling 30 minutes break in total, however> no period greater than 6 hours should expire without the worker having adequate rest period, so in other words if your working a 9 hour shift , you cannot work for 7 hours then take a 30 minute break, equally you cannot take a 30 minute break after 2 hours as this would leave a period of 6.5 hours until the end of the DUTY ( there is a reason I emphasize DUTY … )
If your shift extends to 12 hours then you must take a further 15 minutes break within the period 9-12, 12 hour shift = 45 minute break, broken over certain periods not to exceed 6 hours of DUTY.
Now, a Driver must incorporate this with their EU LAWS, which it turns out is rather simple, take 15 minutes within the first 6 hours and with MOST drivers before 9 hours of DUTY is up the would have driven for 4.5 hours and will be completing the second part of their break by stopping for the 30 minutes to make up the break period required by the EU LAWS and the WTD of 45 minutes before 4.5 of driving is completed and 30 minutes in a period of 9 hours.
As a driver you may have taken 45 by this point which will cover a worker/driver to a shift of 12 hours without requiring another break…

The next subject I want to discuss is P.o.A or better known as LoL
P.o.A:
Can a driver sit on POA fro 3 hours and then go and drive for 4 hours then take a break of 45 minutes…now I have read somewhere that certain people think this is ok, but I do not think it is, now I know some of you will be moaning "Yeah!!! But POA does not count towards working time ( which is true) BUT, it does count towards DUTY time, and if you read the laws correctly and interpret them correctly, (Its called learning)

The point is you cannot sit on POA for 3 hours and then do another period greater than 3 more hours without breaking the WTD, what you have to remember is that the WTD is for all workers and not just drivers, you wouldn’t stop a worker from going to lunch because the machine has broken down (as in they have been standing around all day)
REMEMBER
Before 6 hours of DUTY (POA is DUTY) you must have 15 minutes rest period.

This is how it works in the real world, if I get to somewhere and I am having nothing to do but sit in my cab ( on my bunk watching tv drinking coffee) then I am on Break, not POA, the reason being is that if it takes 2 hours to TIP, i am in a state of recuperation (which is rest period) when I am done, I can then work for another 6 hours of DUTY time or 4.5 hours of driving whichever is first, if however I was on POA then the 2 hours of tipping and turning would not count towards my weekly working time but would count towards my daily DUTY time.
And the WTD quite clearly states: Before a period of DUTY not exceeding 6 hours.

Anyway, hope this clears up a few questions, feel free to ask if you have any others that you need interpreting properly for you.

1 last point, there is no directive for periods over 12 hours as far as I know, I cant remember the last time I did less than 60 Hrs DUTY in a week…15,13,15,13,15 = 48 working time :slight_smile:

114

s268:
Ok…
This is obviously the WTD your talking about…
Well firstly, its a DIRECTIVE, not a law, and so as far as I know, you can only be prosecuted for breaking the law.
It’s a regulations, that’s why it’s called The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005. :unamused:

Next the question in hand:
A worker must take 15 minutes break before 6 hours of DUTY time,
No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break

~snip~

Can a driver sit on POA fro 3 hours and then go and drive for 4 hours then take a break of 45 minutes…now I have read somewhere that certain people think this is ok, but I do not think it is, now I know some of you will be moaning "Yeah!!! But POA does not count towards working time ( which is true) BUT, it does count towards DUTY time, and if you read the laws correctly and interpret them correctly, (Its called learning)Clearly something you’re not good at :unamused:
Please post a link to the section of the RT(WT)R that mentions duty time, you can’t because nowhere in the RT(WT)R 2005 does it mention duty time.

~snip~

what you have to remember is that the WTD is for all workers and not just drivers
The Road Transport Working Time regulations 2005 is only for mobile workers not everyone.

~snip

Anyway, hope this clears up a few questions, feel free to ask if you have any others that you need interpreting properly for you.
I can’t speak for anyone else but I’ll give it a miss if it’s all the same to you :laughing:

You was corrected about this as far back as 2014.

Working Time Directive

You obviously took no notice of what you was told then so I see no reason to waste any more time on it now :unamused:

115

tachograph:

Roymondo:
If you worked a seven hour shift with only a single 16 minute break you should have got an infringement.

This ^^^

If you’re total working time is more than 6 hours but less than 9 hours you should have a break of at-least 30 minutes.

This 30 minute break can be taken in two parts, each part must be at-least 15 minutes.

WTD breaks cannot be taken at the immediate start or immediate end of the shift.

tachograph:

J-BONE:
In ref to it being correct if a driver has to vacate his vehicle and withdraw his card on return to the depot for it to be shunted and speedily reloaded for the next shift, if the driver was forced to take his second break in the canteen would that be acceptable to be written against his infringement letter?

Would he need to do a manual entry or a printout explaining his lack of recorded break

If for any reason a driver needs to eject the driver card before the end of the shift a manual entry covering the time the card was out of the tachograph should be done the next time the card is inserted into a digital tachograph.

Be aware that WTD breaks must interrupt the working time therefore a break at the immediate start of end of the shift will not count for the WTD.

A break at the end of the shift must show at-least a minute of other work or driving after the break for the break to count.

Very informative post once it gets down to it and you pick out the relevant nuggets - thanks to the main contributors.
Re the above ‘quotes’, I recently picked up a couple of infringements due to taking a 2nd, 15m break at the very end of my (over 6hr, but under 9hr) shift due to weird circumstances on those particular days.
I understand the mistake I made, was not recording anything after the actual break on the tacho.

Could I just clarify exactly, Tachograph (or Rog :wink: ) how you came to this understanding?
I looked at the EU site where you can read Directive 2002/15/EC but, at first glance, couldn’t find the bit where it mentions not being able to take a break at the beginning or end of a shift - so am I correct in thinking that you are inferring from what IS said about breaks? i.e. in ‘Article 3, Definitions’ and ‘Article 5, Breaks’.
"Working time shall be interrupted[/b] by a break of at least 30 minutes, if working hours total between six and nine hours, and of at least 45 minutes, if working hours total more than nine hours."
So, as it is stipulated in Article 3 that Break time is not classified as Working time, and because our breaks must ‘interrupt’ ‘working time’, it therefore follows that breaks cannot be at the start or end of a shift?
Just like to understand the why’s of things like this before I go signing the infringement sheet :wink:
Thanks,
Jon

116

Crusher75:
So, as it is stipulated in Article 3 that Break time is not classified as Working time, and because our breaks must ‘interrupt’ ‘working time’, it therefore follows that breaks cannot be at the start or end of a shift?

That’s correct, the regulations make it clear that the breaks must interrupt the working time, a break at the immediate start or end of the shift would not be interrupting the working time so would not be a valid break for the RT(WT)R 2005.

117

As long as you have at least 1 min of other work after your break period your covered

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118

Bloody WTD!!! This is for a Thursday night which is my last shift of week (sun-thurs)

Start: 17:19
End: 23:46
Had 23mins break after approx 2hrs, drove back to our yard, truck on bay, tacho on break for a 15, walked to smoke area, went in for a whiz, grabbed a coffee, quick chat & back to truck to change mode to ‘other work’ and complete my paperwork…now, turns out I only had 14 mins second break (must have miscounted the mins) in the 6hrs 27m I was on duty before pulling card until 18:00 Sunday evening…Oh well!

119

pavaroti:
My work says I committed a tacho offence last week because I went almost 7hrs without a half hr break even though I had a 15mins break 2hrs after my start time. What can I say to them to prove there is no offense committed?

Made sticky by dd.

For a start always take a print out at the end of your shift. I know most drivers don’t, but I take one every day and then you have evidence to show whomever is busting your balls and you don’t need to rely on their willingness to check their records properly or their skill to read and understand those records.

Secondly, you might have complied with the 15 mins in 6 hrs, but did you with the 30 mins in 9 hrs and if it was a 13-15 hour shift did you take your second 30 min break. Seen many a driver comply early in the shift, but forget there can be ‘TWO’ six hour blocks in their shift if it’s a long one!

120

Truckerian99:
Secondly, you might have complied with the 15 mins in 6 hrs, but did you with the 30 mins in 9 hrs and if it was a 13-15 hour shift did you take your second 30 min break. Seen many a driver comply early in the shift, but forget there can be ‘TWO’ six hour blocks in their shift if it’s a long one!

There is no rule to take 30 mins in the first 9 hours if the work in a shift is over 9 hours
Please state where you got that incorrect info from please

121

Truckerian99:

pavaroti:
My work says I committed a tacho offence last week because I went almost 7hrs without a half hr break even though I had a 15mins break 2hrs after my start time. What can I say to them to prove there is no offense committed?

Made sticky by dd.

For a start always take a print out at the end of your shift. I know most drivers don’t, but I take one every day and then you have evidence to show whomever is busting your balls and you don’t need to rely on their willingness to check their records properly or their skill to read and understand those records.

Secondly, you might have complied with the 15 mins in 6 hrs, but did you with the 30 mins in 9 hrs and if it was a 13-15 hour shift did you take your second 30 min break. Seen many a driver comply early in the shift, but forget there can be ‘TWO’ six hour blocks in their shift if it’s a long one!

When did the rules change?