6 hour break?

tachograph · 27 January 2011 14:14

Clerik:

It says ERF not RAF:
I don’t want to throw a spanner in the works but I’m sure the regs have changed slightly since this thread started ?
I’m sure the first WTD rest period at or before your first 6 hours work now can’t be less than 30 mins rather than the 15 mins mentioned in the earlier posts ?
(I stand to be corrected !).
This also happened with rest periods made up of 3 x 15 min breaks before 4.5 hrs driving, now changed to the current regs were you have to have 30 mins first if you split.

We have recently been told this and are now getting pulled by managers for it.
We start at 5am and they have said we now have to have a 30min or full 45 mins before 11am, wouldn’t surprise me if they have got it wrong though!

They’re wrong as far as the regulations are concerned but given that it’s likely to lead to you getting more break why complain

Remember though that if you have a split driving break the second part must be at least 30 minutes, so if they want you to have 30 minutes for the 6 hour rule then assuming that you’ve done some driving by then you will need another 30 minutes break at or before 4.5 hours driving.

A win win situation for you unless it stops you getting home

edit:
Just noticed it’s your first post Clerik, welcome to TruckNet-UK

jwhighdown · 12 March 2011 11:59

so if my wtd is 12hours i start at 5am and have my 45min break by 11am do i have to have another 45min break my 5pm?

coffeeholic · 12 March 2011 12:19

jwhighdown:
so if my wtd is 12hours i start at 5am and have my 45min break by 11am do i have to have another 45min break my 5pm?

The WTD requirement to not exceed 6 hours work without a break of at least 15 minutes applies to all periods of 6 hours work in the shift, not just the first 6 hours. So, if after having taken a break before exceeding 6 hours work you reach the 6 hour point again you will require another 15 minute break.

Incidentally, in the scenario you outline above, where you take 45 minutes break at 11:00, you would not need another break for the WTD until 17:45, 6 hours after your break finished and for a 12 hour shift starting at 05:00 you wouldn’t require another WTD break at all. Break doesn’t count as working time so the 6 hour clock wouldn’t start until after your break.

tachograph · 12 March 2011 12:22

Welcome to Trucknet-UK jwhighdown

jwhighdown:
so if my wtd is 12hours i start at 5am and have my 45min break by 11am do i have to have another 45min break my 5pm?

By “my wtd” I assume you mean your working time, if you start work at 05:00 and have a break of 45 minutes at 11:00 you would not need another break for a shift from 05:00 to 17:00/17:45 as long as you don’t drive for more than 4 1/2 hours after the break.

misterstrood · 12 March 2011 12:27

jwhighdown:
so if my wtd is 12hours i start at 5am and have my 45min break by 11am do i have to have another 45min break my 5pm?

Depends what time you finished your 45er. You should not work more than six hours without taking a break starting from time you’ve finished one. But than you do not need 45. 15 is enough for second one in this situation.

schrodingers_cat · 12 March 2011 18:36

jrl driver:

tachograph:
Welcome to TruckNet-UK jrl driver

Given that this thread is nearly 3 years old I imagine Mr B has long since learned all about the 6 hour rule

Mr B:
my head hurts!

Hopefully that’s better by now to

ha,never saw the dates doh! lol

Dont worry jrl driver if youd asked this as a new question some smatarse would only have pointed you to this old thread anyway .

papermonkey · 12 March 2011 20:44

Mr B:
i’ve recently been told that after 6 hours a 45 break has to be taken whether any diving or other work has been done or not. Does anyone know the actual regulation because i can’t find it?

A break of 30 minutes is required to be taken by law after a DUTY period of six hours, unless a 45 min break has already been taken after 4.5 hours driving. Duty period for these purposes means from starting your shift, irrespective of any driving or other work done. Hope thats clear, it took me a while to suss it

rog · 12 March 2011 21:15

papermonkey:
A break of 30 minutes is required to be taken by law after a DUTY period of six hours, unless a 45 min break has already been taken after 4.5 hours driving. Duty period for these purposes means from starting your shift, irrespective of any driving or other work done. Hope thats clear, it took me a while to suss it

Perhaps you could supply a link to where that info (load of old cobblers) is to be found…

What counts as working time?

Working time is not necessarily all attendance or shift time

.

Working Time does not include:
Rest and breaks when no work is done;
Periods of availability

The RT(WT)R break has NEVER required 30 minutes at or before 6 hours of WORK
For the definition of WORK (working time) see above

Many get the break required for the maximum 6 hours of work mixed up with the total of breaks required for the total work done in a shift

RT(WT)R BREAKS (see 5.4)

-mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break,
-if your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes,
-if your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes,
-breaks should be of at least 15 minutes duration

.

How I would present this to avoid some confusion

break required for the maximum 6 hours of work
-mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break,
-breaks should be of at least 15 minutes duration

total of breaks required for the total work done in a shift
-if your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes,
OR
-if your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes,

I put in the word OR as many also believe that 30 minutes must be taken at or before 9 hours of work

coffeeholic · 12 March 2011 21:45

papermonkey:

Mr B:
i’ve recently been told that after 6 hours a 45 break has to be taken whether any diving or other work has been done or not. Does anyone know the actual regulation because i can’t find it?

A break of 30 minutes is required to be taken by law after a DUTY period of six hours, unless a 45 min break has already been taken after 4.5 hours driving. Duty period for these purposes means from starting your shift, irrespective of any driving or other work done. Hope thats clear, it took me a while to suss it

Nowhere in the WTD regulations does it state that. A break of 15 minutes is all that is required before exceeding 6 hours work to satisfy the regulations

The WTD does not mention duty, is is about work and you could have a shift from 06:00 - 18:00 and with POA not require a break if your driving is less than 4.5 hours and the total of driving and other work is less than 6 hours.

Earlier this week I did a shift of just under 11 and a half hours of which 4 hours 23 minutes was driving, 1 hour 33 minutes was other work and 5 hours 30 minutes was break. I never use POA but if I had booked that break time as POA, and I could have done as I knew how long I was going to be waiting for the two periods that make up those 5 and a half hours, I could have done that entire shift without having to record any break. It would have been legal for both the WTD and the tacho rules.

Longer than that even as you obviously still haven’t sussed it.

john_costigan · 12 March 2011 23:00

MR VAIN:
So the easy solution is to have 2 30 min breaks and you’ve covered all angles? Well thats what i’ve been doing.

Me too.

44_tonne_ton · 13 March 2011 09:58

Coffeeholic:

jwhighdown:
so if my wtd is 12hours i start at 5am and have my 45min break by 11am do i have to have another 45min break my 5pm?

The WTD requirement to not exceed 6 hours work without a break of at least 15 minutes applies to all periods of 6 hours work in the shift, not just the first 6 hours. So, if after having taken a break before exceeding 6 hours work you reach the 6 hour point again you will require another 15 minute break.

Incidentally, in the scenario you outline above, where you take 45 minutes break at 11:00, you would not need another break for the WTD until 17:45, 6 hours after your break finished and for a 12 hour shift starting at 05:00 you wouldn’t require another WTD break at all. Break doesn’t count as working time so the 6 hour clock wouldn’t start until after your break.

Where do you get this bit from Neil? The WTD talks about the first 6 hours then the period from 6-9 hours and time after 9 hours? No mention that I can find of the first 6 and second 6? Seeking clarity! Personally I don’t mess about with it. I take a 45 and have done with it!

coffeeholic · 13 March 2011 10:23

44 Tonne Ton:

Coffeeholic:
The WTD requirement to not exceed 6 hours work without a break of at least 15 minutes applies to all periods of 6 hours work in the shift, not just the first 6 hours. So, if after having taken a break before exceeding 6 hours work you reach the 6 hour point again you will require another 15 minute break.

Where do you get this bit from Neil? The WTD talks about the first 6 hours then the period from 6-9 hours and time after 9 hours? No mention that I can find of the first 6 and second 6? Seeking clarity! Personally I don’t mess about with it. I take a 45 and have done with it!

No it doesn’t, it says…

Mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break

No mention of first 6 hours there.

Exactly, it doesn’t mention first and second 6 hours therefore it is all periods of 6 hours. If it only applied to the first 6 hours work in the shift it would have to say so. The fact you cannot find it mentioned anywhere confirms this.

It is as much about what isn’t said as what is when working out what regulations mean. The WTD regulations say mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break, which is pretty clear, but for some reason people add something in that isn’t there about it only applying to the first six hours work and get confused.

When trying to understand any type of regulations you have to read all of them, including the very important definitions section, and not add stuff in that isn’t there.

tachograph · 13 March 2011 10:34

The RT(WT)R 2005 article 7 says that no mobile worker shall work more than 6 hours without a break, it doesn’t mention the first six hours specifically, so six hours means any six hours.

The road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005:
Breaks

(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours
without a break.

(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but
does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break
lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the
worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and
interrupting that period.

(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than
15 minutes each…

44_tonne_ton · 13 March 2011 10:39

The Regulations require that:

mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break,
if your working hours total between 6 and 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 30 minutes,
if your working hours total more than 9 hours, working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45 minutes,

Mr. Pedantic again!

Where do you get the 6 hour thing from? I’m referring to the time after the first 6 hour period (there has to be a first 6 so stop splitting hairs!). You are referring to 6 hour periods all the way through the shift when the regs from the government website don’t? You’re confusing me!

44_tonne_ton · 13 March 2011 10:42

tachograph:
The RT(WT)R 2005 article 7 says that no mobile worker shall work more than 6 hours without a break, it doesn’t mention the first six hours specifically, so six hours means any six hours.

The road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005:
Breaks

(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours
without a break.

(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but
does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break
lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the
worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and
interrupting that period.

(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than
15 minutes each…

Yes but the Regs cover the periods between 6-9 and after 9? You two are confusing things with your interpretation!

bowserman · 13 March 2011 10:53

Out of interest, has anyone ever been prosecuted for WTD infringements?

coffeeholic · 13 March 2011 10:55

44 Tonne Ton:
You are referring to 6 hour periods all the way through the shift when the regs from the government website don’t? You’re confusing me!

You’re confusing yourself by adding in stuff that isn’t in the regulations. The regulations couldn’t be any clearer when they say…

mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break

You are assuming that means just the first six hours , in your head you are adding the word first into that sentence.

Suppose you work from 06:00 - 08:00 and take a 15 minute break. You then work from 08:15 - 14:15, which is six hours work so this from the regulation then applies - mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break.

I also think you are getting confused by reading the next two statements from the WTD -

7 (2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but
does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break
lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
7 (3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the
worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and
interrupting that period.

and applying them both to the situation. You don’t use both of them, you use the one which fits your situation so if you have between 6 and 9 hours work you apply 7 (2) and ignore 7(3). Likewise if you have more than 9 hours work 7(2) no longer applies and you use 7(3).

If you work more than 9 hours in the shift you can take a 15 minute break before exceeding 6 hours and you don’t need any more break for the WTD until you either reach the next 6 hours of work point, or just before the end of the shift, which ever comes first.

You answered your own question earlier when you said -

No mention that I can find of the first 6 and second 6?

The fact you couldn’t find anything which mentions it proves it applies to all 6 hour periods and not just the first.

You also said -

The WTD talks about the first 6 hours

The word first is not in the regulations, you have added it in and as a result are confusing your self.

There is a member who use to post a lot on here, not so much these days, who always added stuff in that wasn’t in the WTD or Tacho regulations, so much so he frequently became terminally confused.

coffeeholic · 13 March 2011 10:57

bowserman:
Out of interest, has anyone ever been prosecuted for WTD infringements?

No, not that I have ever read about. No one is really policing it to any great extent. There is more than enough to keep the enforcement authorities busy with infringements of the more important tacho rules without worrying about the WTD.

tachograph · 13 March 2011 11:02

44 Tonne Ton:
Yes but the Regs cover the periods between 6-9 and after 9? You two are confusing things with your interpretation!

The first line of article 7 should be read as isolated from sub-articles 2 and 3, “No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break”, nowhere does it mention only the first six hours.

Six hours working time is six hours working time regardless of what part of the shift it’s in

I think you’re reading the sub-articles 7 (1) and 7 (2) as if if (2) is a continuation of (1) but it’s not, read (1) and (2) and (3) separately and as if isolated from each other.

44_tonne_ton · 13 March 2011 11:08

Coffeeholic:

44 Tonne Ton:
You are referring to 6 hour periods all the way through the shift when the regs from the government website don’t? You’re confusing me!

You’re confusing yourself by adding in stuff that isn’t in the regulations. The regulations couldn’t be any clearer when they say…

mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break

You are assuming that means just the first six hours , in your head you are adding the word first into that sentence.

Suppose you work from 06:00 - 08:00 and take a 15 minute break. You then work from 08:15 - 14:15, which is six hours work so this from the regulation then applies - mobile workers must not work more than 6 consecutive hours without taking a break.

I also think you are getting confused by reading the next two statements from the WTD -

7 (2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but
does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break
lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
7 (3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the
worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and
interrupting that period.

and applying them both to the situation. You don’t use both of them, you use the one which fits your situation so if you have between 6 and 9 hours work you apply 7 (2) and ignore 7(3). Likewise if you have more than 9 hours work 7(2) no longer applies and you use 7(3).

If you work more than 9 hours in the shift you can take a 15 minute break before exceeding 6 hours and you don’t need any more break for the WTD until you either reach the next 6 hours of work point, or just before the end of the shift, which ever comes first.

You answered your own question earlier when you said -

No mention that I can find of the first 6 and second 6?

The fact you couldn’t find anything which mentions it proves it applies to all 6 hour periods and not just the first.

You also said -

The WTD talks about the first 6 hours

The word first is not in the regulations, you have added it in and as a result are confusing your self.

There is a member who use to post a lot on here, not so much these days, who always added stuff in that wasn’t in the WTD or Tacho regulations, so much so he frequently became terminally confused.

Ahh, now I see what you’re on about! The devil is in the detail! Simples! Thank you for that and here’s one for luck!