2 hours drive + 15min break + 52 min POA + driving up to 4h30’ to the customer’s gate, one minute drive to the office, three minutes drive to the bay and reverse, for a total of 4 hours 34 minutes drive with a 15’ break and 52’ POA.
Tacho is not showing infringement, to my puzzlement. Many tachos take POA as driving rest, but I always thought it was sort of a glitch. I am confused now.
Tacho counts poa as rest & thinks you done corect breaks
As above the exact reason you don’t use POA unless you know how much driving you have done and taken the required breaks ignoring the POA resetting your driving time.
The reason that the software does not recognise an infringement is because sin Europe POA is considered break unlike here in the UK.
POA is only considered break when double manning here in the UK and cards are inserted into both slot 1 and 2 and only the first 45 mins can be counted as a break in a loving vehicle.
Interested to know why you used POA?
Some companies (dunno about OP) don`t pay all breaks, but do pay POA.
It will depend on the analysis software in use and the way the tacho is calibrated. POA in the UK is NOT counted as a break (unless double-manning) but IS in the EU. Clever rules designed to confuse drivers. Analysis software in the UK should flag the infringement.
Stop me if I`m wrong please:
The UK says that it is necessary to know the time available to book POA rather than duty?
And that it is not necessary to know time available to book a break?
.
A lot follows from that, but I would like to make sure my understanding is correct.
Agreed. Correct software will flag the issue, but the tacho head will not. The driver has no real-time warnings.
You are correct franglais.
For example:
Arrive at distribution centre at 12:15. Slot not available until 13:00. Told to wait with the vehicle and return at 13:00. Tacho can be set to POA, and should be so if the driver is required to remain in case called earlier. (He/she is “available”, but not working (doesn’t count as work time for the WTD, but also doesn’t count as break.
If told definitely NOT to return before 13:00, theoretically if parked where the vehicle will not be required to move before 13:00, then the driver is also free to record a break if he/she desires. Caution advised if paid by duty hours (shift) but breaks deducted. POA is on duty, but not working.
HOWEVER: if the driver arrives and is told that the slot is busy, but he/she will be called as soon as it is available, the time is NOT known in advance. Therefore the tacho in such situations should be set to Other Work (hammers). This is because the driver is NOT free to leave the vehicle and dispose of his/her time, which is the definition of a break. Many drivers DO use the time to record a break, taken in the vehicle, but strictly speaking it’s the offence of making a false record in such circumstances.
As mentioned earlier - lots of legislation unclear to many drivers, leading to misconceptions and brushes with DVSA examiners who might have a bee in their bonnet about such instances.
It seems to me that it should be possible to book POA here?
One is not free to wander off and get a meal etc, so clearly not a break agreed. But one is not actively performing any duties, could even be dozing on the bunk! One is available to commence work, but isn`t working.
I am saying “seems to me” of course! 
First 15 minutes break was tactical for the 6 hours WTD. I put it on POA as I was on a bay and I have a long hours shift mindset --meaning, unless you use POA, your weekly work hours go over the roof (Stobart, Warrens… and the like)
Once tipped they send me to a collection that is going to be very tight to meet the train at the railport, so I had no possible room for a 30’ break for a clean slate driving time wise, I had to take that container to the client and do the 30’ break on a bay while loading.
I do not mean tacho not showing infringements in the cabin, I mean both in the haulier’s card reader at the end of the shift, and the free software I use which is TachoPlus Driver. I have the TruTac in my smartphone, but never used it so far, should give it a go now and see if it spots an infringement or not.
It won’t show as an infringement even in tachomaster which is probably the best tacho analysis software either. It is because POA is accepted as break in Europe. The software believes you have had a 15 min break followed by a 52 min break whilst on POA.
The UK definition of POA is that the end of the Period of Availability MUST be known in advance. If not, then Other Work is to be used (or break, provided that the driver is free to dispose of his time).
It seems to me that most of the legislation regarding Drivers Hours and the Road Transport Directive has been cobbled together by academics without much experience of what life on the road is really like. Makes life very, very difficult for drivers and operators.
Incorrect a time does not have to be given to use POA. You can also use it from previous experience or knowledge. If you do the same job once every week and you sit waiting for 3 hours for a bay before then that can also be POA.
As for breaks again you are incorrect,
A break A break is any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving or any other work and which is used exclusively for recuperation. A break may be taken in a moving vehicle, provided no other work is undertaken.
No mention of being able to leave the vehicle or dispose of your free time. You legally need time to recuperate for a break aka not driving or working.
That applies to daily rest and a conversation that nearly all drivers insist they are right and you are wrong.
A rest A rest is an uninterrupted period where a driver may freely dispose of their time.
Break and reset 2 different things in law and meaning.
These clarifications arise further questions to me now.
There are tacho units fitted in the cabs, that when inserting the driver’s card, ask for the recording data to be sent somewhere… DVSA? do not recall now…
What does that exactly do? or imply? Is there a data center monitoring continuosly the driver’s activity? on the lookout for infringements?
The point of the question being, if despite an infringement not showing on the tacho readers, if it can be spotted elsewhere.
The only way to remotely read tacho data is by having the automatic download kit installed both in the vehicle and and in a customers premises.
The remote download that can be done by DVSA only allows certain bits of information to be downloaded whilst in motion currently. Truck details and whether a card is inserted is the basic info it downloads from memory.
If DVSA do a download or do printouts they will be able to tell you have not had the required breaks so yes a fine would potentially be incoming if stopped within 28 days.
If it’s a one off I doubt they’d care but result occurrences and they certainly would.
At a guess, the way the software is set up. Regardless of the way the software is set up, a roadside stop would flag what you have described as exceeding 4.5 hours driving, although there is some tolerance, which I can’t remember exactly.
Oh, you were doing so well up until this point. It is REST that is defined as free to dispose of your time. BREAK does not require that , only that it is exclusively recuperative, with no limits of location or freedom. So if you are required to stand to attention in front of the cab for an unspecified period of time, that could still be legally a break.
Ok, standing to attention was a bit of an exaggeration, but Stand At Ease is the definition of being on break.
Hmm. Not sure how being told to stand at attention could be classed as a break - try telling that to a squaddy.
But I get where you’re coming from Stu675.
You are right that the legal definitions are ambiguous and open to misinterpretation. As I posted earlier, the legislators don’t seem to have much of a clue about writing clear, concise, and readily understandable law. But they DO seem to manage to write clear, concise and readily understandable instructions to those who enforce those bad laws in punishing the drivers.
I always try to keep things as simple as possible when writing reports to clients, or on forums such as these, where much of the advice comes from those who actively look for ways to circumvent the law, without really understanding it in the first place.
To use your army anaolgy - a bit like a squaddy going in to clear a house, without doing a bit of a recce first to fully understand what he’s getting himself (or herself -
got to acknowledge that we have lady soldiers and drivers too) into.
So I keep it simple. If you are free to leave the vehicle and go to a cafe and sit down, clearly that is a break. But what if your manager is travelling with you, and starts discussing the next part of your trip, and the journey? Or uses the time to show you your infringements, and gets you to sign for them. You’re not driving. You’re having a cup of tea or coffee, same as if you were on your own. You might even be eating a hearty breakfast or lunch. But I strongly suspect that if a kind-hearted DVSA examiner just happened to be sitting in the same cafe, and asked to see your tacho card when he followed you back to your vehicle, that he would be an unhappy bunny if he found it had been set to break.
Therefore my simple advice to drivers. If you keep to the lighter side of grey areas, you tend to get less hassle than when you inadvertently stray into the darker shades of grey.