If you don’t mind standing around in the rain how about trade plates and insurance?
Less upfront cost and paperwork. Good way in to make contacts before committing a lot financially.
Sent from my X17 using Tapatalk
Carryfast:
In addition to the arguable dodgy stability nature of towing a trailer which could be considerably heavier than the towing vehicle.
Looks at 8 tonne 6x2 unit pulling a 36 tonne tri-axle trailer…
Conor:
Carryfast:
In addition to the arguable dodgy stability nature of towing a trailer which could be considerably heavier than the towing vehicle.Looks at 8 tonne 6x2 unit pulling a 36 tonne tri-axle trailer…
Firstly artics aren’t the same thing as close coupled combinations if that’s what you’re referring to.IE the superimposition configuration of artics doesn’t create the same directional instability issues as close coupled does.Being that it isn’t actually an 8t unit pulling a 36t trailer when it’s got the nose weight of the semi trailer dropped on its 5th wheel.It’s then actually just an articulating combination with the unit weighing around 20t + when coupled up . 
In which case the relevant comparison is an A frame 2 + 3 drawbar outfit or 25tonner pulling around 40 tonner + trailer v close coupled. IE A frames are effectively immune from the tail wagging the dog issue because their directional stability isn’t dependent on the towing vehicle nor is there any weight transfer between trailer and prime mover.
While close coupled trailers obviously aren’t.Because their directional stability is dependent on the prime mover/towing vehicle and weight is transferred between trailer and same in a way which causes lateral movement at the drive and steer axles.Which probably explains why you don’t see many/any 2 + 3 close coupled outfits but there are numerous examples of 2 + 3 A frames. 
On that note feel free to pull a fully freighted artic trailer,with a 25 tonner rigid drawbar prime mover,in the close coupled configuration,not A frame.Or for that matter a 44t artic outfit with the fifth wheel set behind the drive axle. 
I too am interested in this kind of area, in fact my business plan is very similar to the OP. However having done a bunch of research and before finding this thread, I found that:
-
Weights are very marginal. With the average weight of cars going up and up gradually, a truck capable of hauling it yet staying under the 3.5t GVW is difficult to achieve, and even if it does there’s a further issue regarding axle limits and knowing exactly where to place the car/load on the back to stay within those limits. So its going to be a LWB <3.5t truck such as Fiat Ducato, VW Transporter etc, aluminium body, no crew cabs (too heavy) and little/no tools able to be carried either. Anything RWD is likely to be a bit heavier and leave to little pragmatically useful for payload. Anything slightly larger eg Sprinter, LT, Master downrated to 3.5t will probably be too heavy too.
-
Common sense would dictate use a more capable vehicle but then you’re over 3.5t, and into tacho and O-licence requirements.
-
Towing is also going to put you over 3.5t and in fact is worse because of stability and lower speed limits, worse fuel economy etc. So, transporting 2 cars or larger cars commits you to >3.5t
-
The market seems almost saturated so prices are rock bottom. In fact looking at (for example) uShip and analysing the costs shows that the single trip alone loses money. A backhaul needs to be ideally located, even then its only just covering fuel and fixed costs, with 1 driver’s wages pretty low. Also a backhaul could potentially make for a long day (an overnight stop and its costs are going to make the job uneconomic; truck is too marginal on weight to be a crewcab to sleep in, etc) And of course if the backhaul falls through or isn’t found, then you either have to mess the 1st delivery customer around with an altered date, do it at a loss (well…no wages) or see if you can be lucky in getting another load back.
Given the above, does anyone actually make (reasonable) money from it? Legally? I know there’s a bunch of regulations surrounding recovery vehicles MoT exemption, tacho exemptions but it only applies for broken down cars, not transportation. Are 50% of the providers overloading their Transits to 4t regularly, etc? Or are there large operators able to coordinate very efficiently and keep costs low while still paying decent wages and still making enough for decent capital reinvestment (ie can run newer trucks etc)?
paul_c2:
I too am interested in this kind of area, in fact my business plan is very similar to the OP. However having done a bunch of research and before finding this thread, I found that:
Weights are very marginal. With the average weight of cars going up and up gradually, a truck capable of hauling it yet staying under the 3.5t GVW is difficult to achieve, and even if it does there’s a further issue regarding axle limits and knowing exactly where to place the car/load on the back to stay within those limits. So its going to be a LWB <3.5t truck such as Fiat Ducato, VW Transporter etc, aluminium body, no crew cabs (too heavy) and little/no tools able to be carried either. Anything RWD is likely to be a bit heavier and leave to little pragmatically useful for payload. Anything slightly larger eg Sprinter, LT, Master downrated to 3.5t will probably be too heavy too.
Common sense would dictate use a more capable vehicle but then you’re over 3.5t, and into tacho and O-licence requirements.
Towing is also going to put you over 3.5t and in fact is worse because of stability and lower speed limits, worse fuel economy etc. So, transporting 2 cars or larger cars commits you to >3.5t
The market seems almost saturated so prices are rock bottom. In fact looking at (for example) uShip and analysing the costs shows that the single trip alone loses money. A backhaul needs to be ideally located, even then its only just covering fuel and fixed costs, with 1 driver’s wages pretty low. Also a backhaul could potentially make for a long day (an overnight stop and its costs are going to make the job uneconomic; truck is too marginal on weight to be a crewcab to sleep in, etc) And of course if the backhaul falls through or isn’t found, then you either have to mess the 1st delivery customer around with an altered date, do it at a loss (well…no wages) or see if you can be lucky in getting another load back.
Given the above, does anyone actually make (reasonable) money from it? Legally? I know there’s a bunch of regulations surrounding recovery vehicles MoT exemption, tacho exemptions but it only applies for broken down cars, not transportation. Are 50% of the providers overloading their Transits to 4t regularly, etc? Or are there large operators able to coordinate very efficiently and keep costs low while still paying decent wages and still making enough for decent capital reinvestment (ie can run newer trucks etc)?
Realistically I’d look for sub contract work with all of the big European breakdown providers.Using a 7.5 tonner and decent trailer.Return loads aren’t going to be a factor with it being more likely that they’ll find a load for the trailer,at the same time as,or even while on route to collect,the load on the truck and rates are so stupid that people are actually having cars written off because the rates being applied to get the car home are often more than the car is worth using book prices.Resulting in massive headaches for owners who find that replacement costs outweigh the book price and breakdown insurers refusing to move the car. IE in that sector rate cutting is actually needed.In addition to zb service levels in which people are waiting weeks to see their cars returned and to add insult to injury storage charges then being applied.
When what’s needed is reasonable capacity in which owners don’t need to wait for a large transporter operation carrying out multiple collections before their car is collected.Or time consuming numerous links as part of a locally sourced relay type transport chain.Together with fast response times combined with a rate which is low enough to not exceed the book value of the car.
As for the weight v O licence/C1 + E dilemma that’s obviously a double edged sword which actually helps those who want to do the job properly.
Carryfast:
paul_c2:
I too am interested in this kind of area, in fact my business plan is very similar to the OP. However having done a bunch of research and before finding this thread, I found that:
Weights are very marginal. With the average weight of cars going up and up gradually, a truck capable of hauling it yet staying under the 3.5t GVW is difficult to achieve, and even if it does there’s a further issue regarding axle limits and knowing exactly where to place the car/load on the back to stay within those limits. So its going to be a LWB <3.5t truck such as Fiat Ducato, VW Transporter etc, aluminium body, no crew cabs (too heavy) and little/no tools able to be carried either. Anything RWD is likely to be a bit heavier and leave to little pragmatically useful for payload. Anything slightly larger eg Sprinter, LT, Master downrated to 3.5t will probably be too heavy too.
Common sense would dictate use a more capable vehicle but then you’re over 3.5t, and into tacho and O-licence requirements.
Towing is also going to put you over 3.5t and in fact is worse because of stability and lower speed limits, worse fuel economy etc. So, transporting 2 cars or larger cars commits you to >3.5t
The market seems almost saturated so prices are rock bottom. In fact looking at (for example) uShip and analysing the costs shows that the single trip alone loses money. A backhaul needs to be ideally located, even then its only just covering fuel and fixed costs, with 1 driver’s wages pretty low. Also a backhaul could potentially make for a long day (an overnight stop and its costs are going to make the job uneconomic; truck is too marginal on weight to be a crewcab to sleep in, etc) And of course if the backhaul falls through or isn’t found, then you either have to mess the 1st delivery customer around with an altered date, do it at a loss (well…no wages) or see if you can be lucky in getting another load back.
Given the above, does anyone actually make (reasonable) money from it? Legally? I know there’s a bunch of regulations surrounding recovery vehicles MoT exemption, tacho exemptions but it only applies for broken down cars, not transportation. Are 50% of the providers overloading their Transits to 4t regularly, etc? Or are there large operators able to coordinate very efficiently and keep costs low while still paying decent wages and still making enough for decent capital reinvestment (ie can run newer trucks etc)?
Realistically I’d look for sub contract work with all of the big European breakdown providers.Using a 7.5 tonner and decent trailer.Return loads aren’t going to be a factor with it being more likely that they’ll find a load for the trailer,at the same time as,or even while on route to collect,the load on the truck and rates are so stupid that people are actually having cars written off because the rates being applied to get the car home are often more than the car is worth using book prices.Resulting in massive headaches for owners who find that replacement costs outweigh the book price and breakdown insurers refusing to move the car.
When what’s needed is reasonable capacity in which owners don’t need to wait for a large transporter operation carrying out multiple collections before their car is collected.Or time consuming numerous links as part of a locally sourced relay type transport chain.Together with fast response times combined with a rate which is low enough to not exceed the book value of the car.
As for the weight v O licence/C1 + E dilemma that’s obviously a double edged sword which actually helps those who want to do the job properly.
That makes sense but realistically, I can’t afford the required investment and I don’t really want to weigh myself down with finance, etc. I was aiming to start small and gradually grow, but it seems that many others are doing this too (and don’t seem to last too long either). I’ll look into it though and see what the costs are like, the vehicle would be the main cost(s) but there’s the other stuff that goes with having an O licence too…
paul_c2:
That makes sense but realistically, I can’t afford the required investment and I don’t really want to weigh myself down with finance, etc. I was aiming to start small and gradually grow, but it seems that many others are doing this too (and don’t seem to last too long either). I’ll look into it though and see what the costs are like, the vehicle would be the main cost(s) but there’s the other stuff that goes with having an O licence too…
Firstly even a decent 4 x 4 and a trailer or a 3.5 tonner isn’t going to be cheap.With the worst of all worlds situation of around £10,000 for an outfit which isn’t up to the job.As opposed to something along these lines all for less than £20,000.
trucks.autotrader.co.uk/used-tru … 186eb511da
amsrecoverytrucks.co.uk/product. … product=17
While as I said O licence and C1 + E requirement would go with the territory.But which obviously has the upside of reducing the market saturation in addition to kit that can handle requirements.
I run a 3.5t 3.0l Peugeot Boxer with a 3t trailer,i have an operator licence and tacho and run it all above board.
I was going to got he 7.5t route but decided not to due to running costs,when i don’t have the trailer on i get 30+mpg and even running at 6.5t with 2 cars it will average 22-25mpg.
Also without the trailer you can set the tacho to out of scope and are not restricted to tacho laws,(Not my words but VOSA).Also you do not need a driver CPC for a 3.5t+trailer.
4x4’s will not get anywhere near that mpg figure,neither will a 7.5t.Weights have never been an issue,axle weights have never been an issue,i have a 2.4t rear axle and to get close to it you would have to be well overweight.
Payload can be a problem on a 3.5t but if you can run without a winch and spare wheel you can get the weight down to 2-2.1t.
Any car over 1.5t just goes on the trailer.
I think i am very lucky with rates as i have a group of customers that prefer good service to cheap rates and are willing to pay.Your target should be £1pm each way as an average.
peter1974:
I run a 3.5t 3.0l Peugeot Boxer with a 3t trailer,i have an operator licence and tacho and run it all above board.
I was going to got he 7.5t route but decided not to due to running costs,when i don’t have the trailer on i get 30+mpg and even running at 6.5t with 2 cars it will average 22-25mpg.
Also without the trailer you can set the tacho to out of scope and are not restricted to tacho laws,(Not my words but VOSA).Also you do not need a driver CPC for a 3.5t+trailer.
4x4’s will not get anywhere near that mpg figure,neither will a 7.5t.Weights have never been an issue,axle weights have never been an issue,i have a 2.4t rear axle and to get close to it you would have to be well overweight.
Payload can be a problem on a 3.5t but if you can run without a winch and spare wheel you can get the weight down to 2-2.1t.
Any car over 1.5t just goes on the trailer.
I think i am very lucky with rates as i have a group of customers that prefer good service to cheap rates and are willing to pay.Your target should be £1pm each way as an average.
Are you sure about that towing weight limit on the Boxer. 
Although again like most others they don’t seem to differentiate GTW from GCW in the figure in which the former should be expected to be higher.In which case,assuming it’s a typical close coupled type trailer,not an A frame like the example I’ve shown in the previous post,have you also allowed for the trailer nose weight lifting weight off the steer and putting it on the rear axle with the heavy trailer.Bearing in mind that the Boxer will also need to be loaded to make a stable outfit with a maxed out trailer in that case.Which then leaves the question of the real world margin of that 2.4t gross rear axle assuming it’s around,if not more than,1t unladen ?.
Carryfast:
peter1974:
I run a 3.5t 3.0l Peugeot Boxer with a 3t trailer,i have an operator licence and tacho and run it all above board.
I was going to got he 7.5t route but decided not to due to running costs,when i don’t have the trailer on i get 30+mpg and even running at 6.5t with 2 cars it will average 22-25mpg.
Also without the trailer you can set the tacho to out of scope and are not restricted to tacho laws,(Not my words but VOSA).Also you do not need a driver CPC for a 3.5t+trailer.
4x4’s will not get anywhere near that mpg figure,neither will a 7.5t.Weights have never been an issue,axle weights have never been an issue,i have a 2.4t rear axle and to get close to it you would have to be well overweight.
Payload can be a problem on a 3.5t but if you can run without a winch and spare wheel you can get the weight down to 2-2.1t.
Any car over 1.5t just goes on the trailer.
I think i am very lucky with rates as i have a group of customers that prefer good service to cheap rates and are willing to pay.Your target should be £1pm each way as an average.Are you sure about that towing weight limit on the Boxer.
Perhaps as he actually does the job and makes a living out it and you don’t and never have, he’s got a better idea what the best type of vehicle for his business is than you have?
muckles:
Carryfast:
peter1974:
I run a 3.5t 3.0l Peugeot Boxer with a 3t trailer,i have an operator licence and tacho and run it all above board.
I was going to got he 7.5t route but decided not to due to running costs,when i don’t have the trailer on i get 30+mpg and even running at 6.5t with 2 cars it will average 22-25mpg.
Also without the trailer you can set the tacho to out of scope and are not restricted to tacho laws,(Not my words but VOSA).Also you do not need a driver CPC for a 3.5t+trailer.
4x4’s will not get anywhere near that mpg figure,neither will a 7.5t.Weights have never been an issue,axle weights have never been an issue,i have a 2.4t rear axle and to get close to it you would have to be well overweight.
Payload can be a problem on a 3.5t but if you can run without a winch and spare wheel you can get the weight down to 2-2.1t.
Any car over 1.5t just goes on the trailer.
I think i am very lucky with rates as i have a group of customers that prefer good service to cheap rates and are willing to pay.Your target should be £1pm each way as an average.Are you sure about that towing weight limit on the Boxer.
Perhaps as he actually does the job and makes a living out it and you don’t and never have, he’s got a better idea what the best type of vehicle for his business is than you have?
Obviously not if I’m right about the max towing limit on a Boxer and he’s wrong and assuming that ideally you need at least a 2t payload capacity on the wagon and the trailer. 
Carryfast:
muckles:
Carryfast:
peter1974:
I run a 3.5t 3.0l Peugeot Boxer with a 3t trailer,i have an operator licence and tacho and run it all above board.
I was going to got he 7.5t route but decided not to due to running costs,when i don’t have the trailer on i get 30+mpg and even running at 6.5t with 2 cars it will average 22-25mpg.
Also without the trailer you can set the tacho to out of scope and are not restricted to tacho laws,(Not my words but VOSA).Also you do not need a driver CPC for a 3.5t+trailer.
4x4’s will not get anywhere near that mpg figure,neither will a 7.5t.Weights have never been an issue,axle weights have never been an issue,i have a 2.4t rear axle and to get close to it you would have to be well overweight.
Payload can be a problem on a 3.5t but if you can run without a winch and spare wheel you can get the weight down to 2-2.1t.
Any car over 1.5t just goes on the trailer.
I think i am very lucky with rates as i have a group of customers that prefer good service to cheap rates and are willing to pay.Your target should be £1pm each way as an average.Are you sure about that towing weight limit on the Boxer.
Perhaps as he actually does the job and makes a living out it and you don’t and never have, he’s got a better idea what the best type of vehicle for his business is than you have?
Obviously not if I’m right about the max towing limit on a Boxer and he’s wrong and assuming that ideally you need at least a 2t payload capacity on the wagon and the trailer.
So you’re saying he’s running a cowboy outfit then?
Carryfast:
peter1974:
I run a 3.5t 3.0l Peugeot Boxer with a 3t trailer,i have an operator licence and tacho and run it all above board.
I was going to got he 7.5t route but decided not to due to running costs,when i don’t have the trailer on i get 30+mpg and even running at 6.5t with 2 cars it will average 22-25mpg.
Also without the trailer you can set the tacho to out of scope and are not restricted to tacho laws,(Not my words but VOSA).Also you do not need a driver CPC for a 3.5t+trailer.
4x4’s will not get anywhere near that mpg figure,neither will a 7.5t.Weights have never been an issue,axle weights have never been an issue,i have a 2.4t rear axle and to get close to it you would have to be well overweight.
Payload can be a problem on a 3.5t but if you can run without a winch and spare wheel you can get the weight down to 2-2.1t.
Any car over 1.5t just goes on the trailer.
I think i am very lucky with rates as i have a group of customers that prefer good service to cheap rates and are willing to pay.Your target should be £1pm each way as an average.Are you sure about that towing weight limit on the Boxer.
What’s the difference between GTW and GCW?
muckles:
So you’re saying he’s running a cowboy outfit then?
I don’t think a question related to a max towing capacity figure or not an ideal set up depending on personal choice fits that description.
paul_c2:
What’s the difference between GTW and GCW?
No weight transfer between trailer and towing vehicle and effective immunity from any potential tail wagging the dog issues.Although for some reason neither VOSA or the manufacturers seem to recognise it in stated towing limit figures.
Carryfast:
paul_c2:
What’s the difference between GTW and GCW?No weight transfer between trailer and towing vehicle and effective immunity from any potential tail wagging the dog issues.Although for some reason neither VOSA or the manufacturers seem to recognise it in stated towing limit figures.
Ok in that case I think you’ve simply said it in a confusing/unclear way. Yes you’d include the nose weight of a drawbar trailer on the towing vehicle, and that must also be taken into account for towing vehicle’s GVW and also the fact that it acts on the overhang, so the front axle is less loaded and the rear axle even more loaded. But GTW = GCW because they’re both totals of all the weight, right?
paul_c2:
Carryfast:
paul_c2:
What’s the difference between GTW and GCW?No weight transfer between trailer and towing vehicle and effective immunity from any potential tail wagging the dog issues.Although for some reason neither VOSA or the manufacturers seem to recognise it in stated towing limit figures.
Ok in that case I think you’ve simply said it in a confusing/unclear way. Yes you’d include the nose weight of a drawbar trailer on the towing vehicle, and that must also be taken into account for towing vehicle’s GVW and also the fact that it acts on the overhang, so the front axle is less loaded and the rear axle even more loaded. But GTW = GCW because they’re both totals of all the weight, right?
As I said in the case of GTW there is no nose weight acting on the rear overhang and lifting weight off the front axle or adding to the GVW of the towing vehicle.There’s also no lateral directional loads imposed on the towing vehicle because the steering front axle of the trailer controls the trailer’s directional stability not the towing vehicle.In which case it’s anyone’s guess why manufacturers don’t apply the expected two different towing capacity weights in that case.
I chose the Boxer because the 3.0l heavy duty has a train weight of 6.5t and a towing capacity of 3t unlike the 2.2l which can only tow 2.5t.
I don’t know what you expect the nose weight to be but a well loaded trailer will not go over 100-150kg.
As an example.
I was stopped and weighed with a Prius on the truck an E class merc on the trailer.
The combined train weight was 6430kg.
none of the axles were overweight and the second axle was only 2250kg,so i still had 150kg to play with.Although i was fined after much argument as the truck was 3860kg and the trailer 2570kg.
I was always led to believe and still do that when towing as long as the axles are ok and your under the GTW it doesn’t matter where the weight is.
As far as towing goes i use a trip axle trailer as they are much more stable and even when towing something like a Range Rover and having the truck empty it drives absolutely fine,i must also add that my truck is fitted with full self levelling air suspension.Not the cheap assister kits you can buy but a full leaf spring replacement,so no matter how its loaded it always remains at the same height.
I will also add that i spent 4months deciding on what was best for my business,and even now it does not work for everything,to cover every situation you need two trucks,ideally i would have a 10t twin deck and an ultra lightweight 3.5t.
peter1974:
The combined train weight was 6430kg.
none of the axles were overweight and the second axle was only 2250kg,so i still had 150kg to play with.Although i was fined after much argument as the truck was 3860kg and the trailer 2570kg.
I was always led to believe and still do that when towing as long as the axles are ok and your under the GTW it doesn’t matter where the weight is.
Just because you’ve got a trailer on doesn’t mean you can ignore the GVW of part of the combination surely■■?
peter1974:
I chose the Boxer because the 3.0l heavy duty has a train weight of 6.5t and a towing capacity of 3t unlike the 2.2l which can only tow 2.5t.
I don’t know what you expect the nose weight to be but a well loaded trailer will not go over 100-150kg.
As an example.
I was stopped and weighed with a Prius on the truck an E class merc on the trailer.
The combined train weight was 6430kg.
none of the axles were overweight and the second axle was only 2250kg,so i still had 150kg to play with.Although i was fined after much argument as the truck was 3860kg and the trailer 2570kg.
I was always led to believe and still do that when towing as long as the axles are ok and your under the GTW it doesn’t matter where the weight is.
As far as towing goes i use a trip axle trailer as they are much more stable and even when towing something like a Range Rover and having the truck empty it drives absolutely fine,i must also add that my truck is fitted with full self levelling air suspension.Not the cheap assister kits you can buy but a full leaf spring replacement,so no matter how its loaded it always remains at the same height.I will also add that i spent 4months deciding on what was best for my business,and even now it does not work for everything,to cover every situation you need two trucks,ideally i would have a 10t twin deck and an ultra lightweight 3.5t.
Those figures are worrisome. A quick Google shows that the kerb weight of a Prius is around 1315kg, so using your 3860kg weight, that means whatever else was on the truck (ie fuel, driver, tools, noseweight of trailer, anything in the Prius) leaves a margin for the kerb weight of the transported car as 955kg (to stick within 3500kg GVW). I guess someone filled the Prius with loads of other stuff, and/or you were carrying a lot of tools, and/or the noseweight was quite high etc etc??