Okay here we go,one for Coffeeholic methinks,oh & by the way I’m quite prepared to hold my hands up if I’ve been doing it wrong since the introduction of WTD regs.
Here’s the score then. I’ve never had an infringement for this up until our company changed analysis systems recently,then last night I was handed half a dozen,but as I say I may be wrong. I followed Coffeeholics link to the VOSA pdf but the wording,as ever,is ambiguous. Let’s say,for ease of reckoning, I start duty at 06:00, by 11:45 I’ve accrued 4h30 driving so I take a 45min break (although it’d usually be at least 50) I then work the rest of the day (from finishing my break at 12:30) without completing another 4h30 driving as I’m tipping/loading etc & finish duty at 19:00 just before I go into a reduced rest period (over 13hrs spread). I’ve never had any prob’s with this & have had a few VOSA checks & been given the thumbs up.
Our new analysis,however, is now issuing infringements for exceeding 6hrs duty with no break between 12:30 & 19:00. I was always led to believe that once you’d taken your WTD break (in this scenario incorporated into my EU drivers reg’s break) that was it for the day (as far as the RTD is concerned). The VOSA pdf says “if your working hours total more than 9hrs,working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45mins”.
Note the singular “a break” which I have taken.
Am I wrong? Have I been misinformed,even on my drivers CPC course? Is the ruling ambiguous? Or is the analysis system in the wrong?
Over to you…
Oh & thanks in advance too
The directive also states something along the lines of “no worker shall work more than 6 hours without a break”, which you have done, I presume that is what it is having you for. You need to take a break of at least 15min during the afternoon sometime to keep yourself legal.
I think this is one of those rare cases where the analysis software is actually right!
FLIP:
Okay here we go,one for Coffeeholic methinks,oh & by the way I’m quite prepared to hold my hands up if I’ve been doing it wrong since the introduction of WTD regs.
Here’s the score then. I’ve never had an infringement for this up until our company changed analysis systems recently,then last night I was handed half a dozen,but as I say I may be wrong. I followed Coffeeholics link to the VOSA pdf but the wording,as ever,is ambiguous. Let’s say,for ease of reckoning, I start duty at 06:00, by 11:45 I’ve accrued 4h30 driving so I take a 45min break (although it’d usually be at least 50) I then work the rest of the day (from finishing my break at 12:30) without completing another 4h30 driving as I’m tipping/loading etc & finish duty at 19:00 just before I go into a reduced rest period (over 13hrs spread). I’ve never had any prob’s with this & have had a few VOSA checks & been given the thumbs up.
Our new analysis,however, is now issuing infringements for exceeding 6hrs duty with no break between 12:30 & 19:00. I was always led to believe that once you’d taken your WTD break (in this scenario incorporated into my EU drivers reg’s break) that was it for the day (as far as the RTD is concerned). The VOSA pdf says “if your working hours total more than 9hrs,working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45mins”.
Note the singular “a break” which I have taken.
Am I wrong? Have I been misinformed,even on my drivers CPC course? Is the ruling ambiguous? Or is the analysis system in the wrong?
Over to you…
Oh & thanks in advance too
I’m afraid you’ve got it wrong
The RT(WT)R 2005 state that no worker should work more than 6 hours without a break and you’ve worked 6.5 hours without a break.
VOSA don’t usually check for working time regulations none compliance which is why you’ve got away with it, however it seems that your new analysis company do and legally they are correct.
Be aware that the breaks for the working time regulations should not be at the immediate start or finish of the shift they should interrupt the working time, so if you decide to take the break at the end of shift you would need to do a minute or two of work after the break before booking off for the day.
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
FLIP:
Okay here we go,one for Coffeeholic methinks,oh & by the way I’m quite prepared to hold my hands up if I’ve been doing it wrong since the introduction of WTD regs.
Here’s the score then. I’ve never had an infringement for this up until our company changed analysis systems recently,then last night I was handed half a dozen,but as I say I may be wrong. I followed Coffeeholics link to the VOSA pdf but the wording,as ever,is ambiguous. Let’s say,for ease of reckoning, I start duty at 06:00, by 11:45 I’ve accrued 4h30 driving so I take a 45min break (although it’d usually be at least 50) I then work the rest of the day (from finishing my break at 12:30) without completing another 4h30 driving as I’m tipping/loading etc & finish duty at 19:00 just before I go into a reduced rest period (over 13hrs spread). I’ve never had any prob’s with this & have had a few VOSA checks & been given the thumbs up.
Our new analysis,however, is now issuing infringements for exceeding 6hrs duty with no break between 12:30 & 19:00. I was always led to believe that once you’d taken your WTD break (in this scenario incorporated into my EU drivers reg’s break) that was it for the day (as far as the RTD is concerned). The VOSA pdf says “if your working hours total more than 9hrs,working time should be interrupted by a break or breaks totalling at least 45mins”.
Note the singular “a break” which I have taken.
Am I wrong? Have I been misinformed,even on my drivers CPC course? Is the ruling ambiguous? Or is the analysis system in the wrong?
Over to you…
Oh & thanks in advance too
I’m afraid you’ve got it wrong
The RT(WT)R 2005 state that no worker should work more than 6 hours without a break and you’ve worked 6.5 hours without a break.
VOSA don’t usually check for working time regulations none compliance which is why you’ve got away with it, however it seems that your new analysis company do and legally they are correct.
Be aware that the breaks for the working time regulations should not be at the immediate start or finish of the shift they should interrupt the working time, so if you decide to take the break at the end of shift you would need to do a minute or two of work after the break before booking off for the day.
7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each…
Fair cop guv!!
But as you see in (3) above, exceeding 9hrs entitles & incurrs as a neccesity 45mins break which interrupts that period,I’ve taken this. Obviously as in (1) I’ve exceeded 6hrs but as we were instructed at the outset of WTD/RTD reg’s the 6 hr rule was to ensure that no one (for example) was allowed to star work at say 04:00 & be expected to work perhaps to midday or beyond without a break (as was allowed under EU driving after they abolished the 5h30 spreadover ruling)
You gotta admit it’s ambiguous to say the least when you read paragraph 1 then 3 they contradict one another
In that case I best go cap in hand tonight as I refused to sign them last night & wrote “swat up on the rules” across the front of 'em much forelock tugging ahead methinks!!
FLIP:
In that case I best go cap in hand tonight as I refused to sign them last night & wrote “swat up on the rules” across the front of 'em much forelock tugging ahead methinks!!
I’ll wish you luck with that then
A common bit of misinformation and one that seems to be taught on some DCPC courses is that you should have a minimum of 30 minutes break for the 6 hour rule, in actual fact your working time should not exceed 6 hours without a break of at least 15 minutes.
Breaks for the RT(WT)R count for the tachograph breaks if they’re appropriate and vise versa.
Aye thanks. Am okay on all that ta’ just never heard of the 2nd 6hr break before,bit of a devil as in the scenario I quoted for example,to take that 2nd 15min break would put me into a reduced rest period. Looks like more nights out a few miles from the yard in future then!
More annoyed with meself for getting the infringements to be honest,as apart from a handfull of 4h30 driving ones when stuck in traffic or digitach rolling over when you pull up on 4h29 or bang on 4h30 they’re the 1st ones I’ve had for donkeys yonks.
I’ll sort it out with the shiny arses when I go in tonight,they’ll be okay as I’m already doing 'em a favour working a month of nights. I always thought it was just burglars & prostitutes that worked after dark, too many years tramping europe in me fridge spoilt me I reckon The’re gonna have to use loadsa Tippex on those infringement sheets though
If it’s any consolation, I just got hauled over the coals (albeit gently) for WTD infringments, as far as I am aware, and acording to VOSA no less, VOSA are not interested in WTD for drivers as they consider the EU driver rules adequate (I think they got that right for once).
Anyway, the point I was going to make is that I have been told that if you work 6 hours, you must take a 30 min break WITHIN the 6 hour period. But I wasn’t told about the 15 minute/9 hour rule.
I am going to go search for OptOut advice before I go bankrupt.
Jas.B:
If it’s any consolation, I just got hauled over the coals (albeit gently) for WTD infringments, as far as I am aware, and acording to VOSA no less, VOSA are not interested in WTD for drivers as they consider the EU driver rules adequate (I think they got that right for once).
Anyway, the point I was going to make is that I have been told that if you work 6 hours, you must take a 30 min break WITHIN the 6 hour period. But I wasn’t told about the 15 minute/9 hour rule.
I am going to go search for OptOut advice before I go bankrupt.
You’ve been told wrong, in fact if you don’t exceed 6 hours working time you don’t need a break for the RT(WT)R at-all
If you work between 6 and 9 hours you should have a total of at least 30 minutes break/breaks, if you work over 9 hours you should have a total of at least 45 minutes break/breaks, these breaks can be split into parts of no less than 15 minutes each.
“No worker should work over 6 hours without a break”
The regulations don’t actually stipulate a minimum break duration for the 6 hour rule so it’s assumed to be the shortest break that will count for the RT(WT)R which is 15 minutes.
Lets say your working time exceeds 9 hours during a shift, you should have a break of at least 15 minutes before exceeding 6 hours working time, you should then have another break or breaks totalling at least a further 30 minutes to be completed before the end of the shift, but at no time during the shift should your working time exceed 6 hours without a break of at least 15 minutes.
Driving breaks count for the RT(WT)R and vice versa if appropriate, so if you did some driving before exceeding 6 hours working time and before having the break, the 15 minute break for the 6 hour rule could also count as the first part of the 45 minute driving break.
Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.
If you drive 1h.30 to a depot and one hour thirty minutes back, you don’t need a break for the EU rules, but you still need at least 45 minutes which can be taken in 15 minute segments for the RTD
The EU rules require a 45 which can only be split 15 & 30, but only before 4.30 is reached.
A later post mentions an opt out before going bankrupt, there is no opt out from the RTD
FLIP:
But as you see in (3) above, exceeding 9hrs entitles & incurrs as a neccesity 45mins break which interrupts that period,I’ve taken this. Obviously as in (1) I’ve exceeded 6hrs but as we were instructed at the outset of WTD/RTD reg’s the 6 hr rule was to ensure that no one (for example) was allowed to star work at say 04:00 & be expected to work perhaps to midday or beyond without a break (as was allowed under EU driving after they abolished the 5h30 spreadover ruling)
You gotta admit it’s ambiguous to say the least when you read paragraph 1 then 3 they contradict one another
It’s only ambiguous if you treat them separately when they in fact go hand in hand. You have to apply both 1 and 2 or 1 and 3 to your working day, depending on whether you have more or less than 9 hours work in your shift. So, if the amount of work in your shift is more than 9 hours you need a break of, or breaks totalling, 45 minutes to meet the requirements of paragraph 3, but at no time must you work more than 6 hours without a break because of paragraph 1.
Number 1 couldn’t really be any clearer and the problem arises when people add words in that aren’t there. It says, No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break, but it doesn’t say that is only for the first 6 hours work in the shift and that’s the bit you are adding on in your head. If you started at 06:00, worked an hour then took a 15 minute break you would need another WTD break at 13:15 latest as you will have done another 6 hours work. Take 15 minutes at that point and if you then work on into the evening you would need another WTD break at 19:30, assuming you haven’t reached 4.5 hours driving.
Aye,cheers lads. Wheelnut & Coffeholic,cheers too. As I said on the header,prepared to hold me hands up, one of those couldn’t see woods for the trees moments I’m afraid , think all the Kir & coffee Calva’s must’ve addled me grey matter over the years . As you say Coffeeholic,it was the added word,which was added by the chap who trained us on our day back in '05 at Garretts Green test centre (we did a day training on wtd with the Vosa boys) hadn’t read the pdf so it’s my own fault & the chappie from the FTA who did our dcpc course interpreted it the same way too!. The main man at ours found it amusing though,'specially the comments I’d written on the infringement sheets So anyway they wont be getting anymore of those infringements off me, but as I pointed out to the main man, be 2 or 3 more nights out a month as we aren’t allowed to exceed 13hrs (company enforced limit) unless it’s an emergency or we’ve been delayed in traffic & need to find parking, so there’s a few more quid in the bank happy days!!
FLIP:
Aye,cheers lads. Wheelnut & Coffeholic,cheers too. As I said on the header,prepared to hold me hands up, one of those couldn’t see woods for the trees moments I’m afraid , think all the Kir & coffee Calva’s must’ve addled me grey matter over the years . As you say Coffeeholic,it was the added word,which was added by the chap who trained us on our day back in '05 at Garretts Green test centre (we did a day training on wtd with the Vosa boys) hadn’t read the pdf so it’s my own fault & the chappie from the FTA on our dcpc course interpreted it the same way too! The main man at ours found it amusing though,'specially the comments I’d written on the infringement sheets So anyway they wont be getting anymore of those infringements off me, but as I pointed out to the main man, be 2 or 3 more nights out a month as we aren’t allowed to exceed 13hrs (company enforced limit) unless it’s an emergency or we’ve been delayed in traffic & need to find parking, so there’s a few more quid in the bank happy days!!
as I refused to sign them last night & wrote “swat up on the rules” across the front of 'em 
much forelock tugging ahead methinks!!
The’re gonna have to use loadsa Tippex on those infringement sheets though 