wanderingstar:
As far as I can see there’s no requirement to align weekly rests with the calendar week. So so long as you got your annual leave, could you do 6 on 2 off forever and be legal?
A weekly rest period has to be taken for each calendar week so I don’t see how you can say that weekly rest periods don’t have to align with the calendar week.
So the answer is, no it can’t be done permanently because around week 10/11 you will need an extra day off to bring your weekly rest period in line with the week it’s being used for.
What a load of tosh. You can work 6 on 2 off forever because your two off are your weekly rest period. There is no need for a rest to be taken for each calendar week, there is no alignment required. Your rest period is defined as being between your weekly shifts. Shifts could end on a Tuesday and start again on a Thursday. The following week rest would start on a Wednesday and end a Friday. Perfectly legal so long as you have 45hrs off before beginning another six. The only alignment with the fixed working week is the driving hours of 9 and 10.
Marsland - I am not going to state my qualifications/experience as I am sure you would only decry them. Nevertheless, what you may think of Tachograph’s comments, they are quite correct. I have just spent 3 days at a PI explaining how an Operator did not mean to break the law by a continual 6-2 pattern - he just didn’t understand the bizarre Regulations.
Please do not ignore the comments as somewhere down the line a 6-2 breaches the regs and it always follows the rest period that spans the Fixed week divide. Honestly - if this site has a PM facility please contact me and I will furnish the proof. Can’t be fairer than that.
As with all legislation it is vital you understand the whole and not pick single sections or paragraphs.
Article 8 sec 9 clearly states that a weekly rest period that falls in two weeks (it’s referring to 2 fixed weeks) may be counted in either but not both.
sec 6 of the above article also states that a weekly rest must not start any later than the end of the sixth 24 hr period following the end of the previous weekly rest.
So it is clear weekly rest is not restricted to the confines of a fixed week but is required to restrict a working week to no more than 6x24 hr periods.
The Enforcer:
As with all legislation it is vital you understand the whole and not pick single sections or paragraphs.
Article 8 sec 9 clearly states that a weekly rest period that falls in two weeks (it’s referring to 2 fixed weeks) may be counted in either but not both.
sec 6 of the above article also states that a weekly rest must not start any later than the end of the sixth 24 hr period following the end of the previous weekly rest.
So it is clear weekly rest is not restricted to the confines of a fixed week but is required to restrict a working week to no more than 6x24 hr periods.
A weekly rest period has to be counted for each fixed week that a driver drives in-scope of EU regulations, as you’ve said a weekly rest period that crosses 2 weeks can be counted for either but not both weeks, therefore while it’s true that you must start a weekly rest period no later than six 24 hour periods from the end of the previous weekly rest period, it’s equally true that each week must have a weekly rest period attached to it, otherwise why would the regulations say that a weekly rest period that crosses 2 weeks can be counted for either but not both.
Here is a very accurate information sheet used by the enforcement agencies throughout the EU. The GV262 gov uk guide is simply that a guide. The Bible is the EU 561/2006 legislation.
Accumulate the daily driving periods in each week applicable to the produced records
to establish weekly driving.
Note that when a driver’s work pattern is not aligned to the
‘fixed week’ it is possible for a driver to accumulate 58 hours driving between weekly
rest periods and still comply. Where, in any week, the weekly driving exceeds 56 hours,
this is an infringement. Exceeding this limit by:
o up to 4 hours constitutes a minor infringement
o more than 4 hours but less than 14 hours constitutes a serious infringement
o more than 14 hours constitutes a very serious infringement.
Looking at a 6/2 rota above (I hope I have posted it) we have to remember that whilst it shows both working days and rest days filling whole 24hr periods in reality they do not.
In my rota A=Monday through to G=Sunday with an 8 week rolling rota & the red days are rest days.
We always start with a weekly rest as we can’t start our first days driving unless we have taken sufficient break.
So to make things easy this driver works a 6am-2pm shift pattern.
Week 1 the weekly rest ended at 6am on Monday (cell A1) so can count as week 1’s weekly rest.
Week 2 the weekly rest was Sunday/Monday (in reality it spreads from Saturday to Monday)
The other 7 weeks are self explanatory.
An alternative method again using my rota above would be to extend the weekly rest to 69hrs between weeks 1&2 this can then count as two back to back weekly rests.
e.g drivers finishes at 12 midday on sat then starts work at 12 midday on tues
The Enforcer:
As with all legislation it is vital you understand the whole and not pick single sections or paragraphs.
Wholeheartedly agreed, and I’d say that the best starting point is wherever the definitions are to be found.
Without first understanding the definitions used in any piece of legislation, any reading of chapter and verse is almost meaningless, and to paraphrase you, I’d say that cherrypicking makes an answer even more skewed.
Looking at a 6/2 rota above (I hope I have posted it) we have to remember that whilst it shows both working days and rest days filling whole 24hr periods in reality they do not.
In my rota A=Monday through to G=Sunday with an 8 week rolling rota & the red days are rest days.
We always start with a weekly rest as we can’t start our first days driving unless we have taken sufficient break.
So to make things easy this driver works a 6am-2pm shift pattern.
Week 1 the weekly rest ended at 6am on Monday (cell A1) so can count as week 1’s weekly rest.
Week 2 the weekly rest was Sunday/Monday (in reality it spreads from Saturday to Monday)
The other 7 weeks are self explanatory.
An alternative method again using my rota above would be to extend the weekly rest to 69hrs between weeks 1&2 this can then count as two back to back weekly rests.
e.g drivers finishes at 12 midday on sat then starts work at 12 midday on tues
The OPs question was “Would 6 on 2 off forever be legal?”
You answer this with a diagram that covers just 8 weeks which if continued to about 11 weeks would show as not being compliant, I’m obviously missing something here but I don’t understand what is the point you’re trying to make
The Enforcer:
As with all legislation it is vital you understand the whole and not pick single sections or paragraphs.
Wholeheartedly agreed, and I’d say that the best starting point is wherever the definitions are to be found.
Without first understanding the definitions used in any piece of legislation, any reading of chapter and verse is almost meaningless, and to paraphrase you, I’d say that cherrypicking makes an answer even more skewed.
Drivers’ hours aren’t my best subject.
Completely agree, it wasn’t my intention to cherry pick if that’s what it appears I have done, my intention was to add to the previous quoted references as they all need to be considered when attempting to understand the rules.
The Enforcer:
As with all legislation it is vital you understand the whole and not pick single sections or paragraphs.
Wholeheartedly agreed, and I’d say that the best starting point is wherever the definitions are to be found.
Without first understanding the definitions used in any piece of legislation, any reading of chapter and verse is almost meaningless, and to paraphrase you, I’d say that cherrypicking makes an answer even more skewed.
Drivers’ hours aren’t my best subject.
Completely agree, it wasn’t my intention to cherry pick if that’s what it appears I have done, my intention was to add to the previous quoted references as they all need to be considered when attempting to understand the rules.
Hi,
No mate, it didn’t appear to me that you cherrypicked at all, I was paraphrasing what you’d said about people picking single sections or paragraphs.
I can especially identify with that because (in relation to ADR) people frequently say to me that they thought x, y or z and it’s clear to me from the way that they say it that they have missed the definitions, then gone on to read the part that they thought applied to them.
In my experience, many people get mixed up (in relation to drivers hours) between ‘rest’ and 'break, then there are those who think that a ‘split rest’ is a ‘reduced daily rest.’ The best one though is the difference between ‘per week’ and ‘between weekly rest periods.’
The Enforcer:
Looking at a 6/2 rota above (I hope I have posted it) we have to remember that whilst it shows both working days and rest days filling whole 24hr periods in reality they do not.
In my rota A=Monday through to G=Sunday with an 8 week rolling rota & the red days are rest days.
We always start with a weekly rest as we can’t start our first days driving unless we have taken sufficient break.
So to make things easy this driver works a 6am-2pm shift pattern.
Week 1 the weekly rest ended at 6am on Monday (cell A1) so can count as week 1’s weekly rest.
Week 2 the weekly rest was Sunday/Monday (in reality it spreads from Saturday to Monday)
The other 7 weeks are self explanatory.
An alternative method again using my rota above would be to extend the weekly rest to 69hrs between weeks 1&2 this can then count as two back to back weekly rests.
e.g drivers finishes at 12 midday on sat then starts work at 12 midday on tues
The OPs question was “Would 6 on 2 off forever be legal?”
You answer this with a diagram that covers just 8 weeks which if continued to about 11 weeks would show as not being compliant, I’m obviously missing something here but I don’t understand what is the point you’re trying to make
Week 9 is the same as week 1 but just for you here is an 11 week rota, which week have I been ‘non compliant’?
I said in my previous post that you would not be compliant about week 11, in fact because you’ve started work on a Tuesday it works out that you would not be complying with the weekly rest regulations in week 10.
This is assuming the driver is working days so is on rest over Sunday midnight at the end of week 9.
Notice that the weekly rest on Monday and Tuesday of week 10 counts can be attached to week 9 because it crosses over midnight Sunday, the weekly rest on Tuesday and Wednesday of week 11 can only count for week 11, therefore week 10 has no weekly rest period attached to it.
edit: I should make it clear that in reality because of bank holidays it may be that at certain times of year you could go much longer than 10 weeks on a 6 on 2 off shift pattern, but without taking leave days into consideration you would have to adjust your shift pattern at some point.
Yes, I would agree, taking my rosta as shown you would have a week in the rosta without a weekly rest attached to it.
However whilst the weekly rest shown in week 11 appears to only cover mon & tue in reality it would start when your shift ends on Sunday meaning you can attach it to the previous week.
Or
As I said previously there is the other option of a back to back weekly rest as this only requires 69hrs that way the break could count in both weeks.
This sort of rota would only suit certain types of operations with relatively short and fixed shifts, retail for example where shift lengths are easier planned and driving distances are comparatively shorter.
The Enforcer:
Yes, I would agree, taking my rosta as shown you would have a week in the rosta without a weekly rest attached to it.
However whilst the weekly rest shown in week 11 appears to only cover mon & tue in reality it would start when your shift ends on Sunday meaning you can attach it to the previous week.
Or
As I said previously there is the other option of a back to back weekly rest as this only requires 69hrs that way the break could count in both weeks.
This sort of rota would only suit certain types of operations with relatively short and fixed shifts, retail for example where shift lengths are easier planned and driving distances are comparatively shorter.
If you said that week 11 is used for week 10 then where does the rest for week 11 appear
The Enforcer:
Yes, I would agree, taking my rosta as shown you would have a week in the rosta without a weekly rest attached to it.
However whilst the weekly rest shown in week 11 appears to only cover mon & tue in reality it would start when your shift ends on Sunday meaning you can attach it to the previous week.
The only difference between the diagram you’ve put up and the one I’ve put up is that you’ve counted week 2 as the first working week whereas in the hope of making it a bit clearer I’ve started with the first working week as week 1.
In my diagram the weekly rest period at the start of week 10 can be used for week 9 or week 10 but not both, therefore one of those weeks has no weekly rest period, in your diagram it’s weeks 10 or 11 that has no weekly rest period.
Either way it shows that (disregarding bank holiday and other leave days) a 6 on 2 off shift pattern does not work permanently without having extra time off.
The Enforcer:
Yes, I would agree, taking my rosta as shown you would have a week in the rosta without a weekly rest attached to it.
However whilst the weekly rest shown in week 11 appears to only cover mon & tue in reality it would start when your shift ends on Sunday meaning you can attach it to the previous week.
The only difference between the diagram you’ve put up and the one I’ve put up is that you’ve counted week 2 as the first working week whereas in the hope of making it a bit clearer I’ve started with the first working week as week 1.
In my diagram the weekly rest period at the start of week 10 can be used for week 9 or week 10 but not both, therefore one of those weeks has no weekly rest period, in your diagram it’s weeks 10 or 11 that has no weekly rest period.
Either way it shows that (disregarding bank holiday and other leave days) a 6 on 2 off shift pattern does not work permanently without having extra time off.
It can be for both if it totals 69hrs as it will actually start during Sunday of week 9 and end on Wednesday of week 10, (although you have a choice of 3 weeks to do this) this wouldn’t require any fewer shifts or additional rest days it’s just a case of managing the shift start and finish times either side of the weekly rest.
Agreed, we are talking hypothetically, however this shift pattern would only suit certain types of operations.
Maybe retail with relatively fixed shifts and limited diversion from planned finish times, I used to manage 100ish drivers who’s shifts ranged from 5hrs up to 9hrs and with the shifts starting from 1am right through until 5pm I could easily plan 69hrs weekly rest.
Any operator has to build a rota that suits their operation otherwise they will very quickly end up in a mess or find themselves filling the gaps with agency drivers which can be costly or can look costly because it would be an unplanned cost.
69hrs is going to be 3 days off in anyones book (anyone other than The Enforcer trying desperately to “force” his point that is!)
No desperation from me.
One of the shifts at the operation I managed was a 6hr shift starting at 2am, a driver that finishes at 8am on a Friday can easily take 69hrs off and be ready for a shift from 5am Monday morning.
whilst the weekly rest shown in week 11 appears to only cover mon & tue in reality it would start when your shift ends on Sunday meaning you can attach it to the previous week.