No mention yet of that absolutely superb Marina RWD bells and whistles replacement… the Morris Ital. 
now that was a heap of crap.
dazcapri:
On the opposite side of that argument would that be the good selling Mini and 1100 produced by BMC/BMH from 1959 and 1962 respectively leaving the Group a financial wreck firstly taking advantage of Jaguar’s profitable position then requiring rescuing by the profitable Leyland Group ( in large part Triumph ) in 1968.As for the Marina there was no way that they’d have been able to afford a wishbone front set up while Triumph and even BMW in the case of the E3 etc managed with McPherson front ends.But yes in an ideal world Ford were right especially in the case of the Granada.In the case of the Marina just matching Triumph’s big saloon preference of McPherson front semi trailing IRS would have been a massive improvement on the obsolete Minor’s torsion bar front live axle rear.
As for the SD1,you’re contradicting yourself by pointing out Ford using wishbone front on the Cortina Mk3.While then making the case for the McPherson front live axle rear and ugly coupe styling v the wishbone front semi trailing IRS and three box or estate styling of the Granada.
As for German workers yes not surprisingly better industrial relations and better productivety from a much better paid workforce working with much better more efficient tooling.Because unlike us they got a much better deal out of the post war recovery plan.While even with all those advantages one of the best that they could do was the Mc Pherson and steering box front,semi trailing IRS rear,3 litre 6 cylinder,BMW E3.Sold at a massively higher price than the wishbone all round rack and pinion 4.2 or V12 Jaguar XJ.So yes an arguably more militant workforce with good reason to be militant.
[/quoteI’ve already said the mini made no money which is why I used the 1100 which did make money
Yes they were rescued from financial ruin by and I quote "the profitable leyland group (in large part Triumph ) that would be triumph who in 1961 were rescued from financial ruin by the leyland group.
They didn’t have the money to develop the marina with any new suspension whether struts or otherwise but as I pointed out they spent more money on the marina than on the Allegro so your point that they were biased towards fwd is bollix.
The leyland group took control in 68 with, leyland man,stokes in charge who installed a LARGLEY leyland management and it was the LARGELY Leyland management who decided that the Morris range would be more basic rwd everyday cars and then the LARGELY Leyland management decided that the Austin cars would be made up of,in their words,technologically superior fwd cars so your point that bmc staff undermined bl is bollix.
I didn’t say anything about the suspension of the SD1 I said putting a V8 triumph on sale with its sixties based floorplan wouldn’t be much different to selling the marina with its outdated floorplan
Ford’s granada was eventually offered as a hatchback so again bl’s designs were ahead of their timeWho mentioned the German workers being more efficient I mentioned Toyota honda and ford uk
Those militant workers at bl really did themselves proud in the first year of marina production there was over 300 hundred stoppages from minor to full strikes but still it really worked out for them they unlike the silly toyota/honda workers when onto have long profitable careers in the motor industry with companies that are still flourishing today
Or maybe not
If the 1100 or in fact any of the fwd heaps were any good the Marina wouldn’t have been needed at all.Nor would BMC have been a financial wreck within a matter of years of their introduction.
Triumph’s situation was totally different in being co operative with Leyland’s management takeover of the firm and their plans,in the form of Webster’s engineering know how.The 2000 and later the 2.5 then turning its situation around.IE Triumph had something to bring to the table in 1961,unlike BMC in 1968.
Yes having been transferred to BMC Webster obviously didn’t have the money to put into the Marina.But again you’ve over looked the opposition that he faced within BMC to any investment in it at all because of their fears for the effects of that on further fwd investment and customer credibility regarding it.To the point where Stokes had to over rule their objections.Nothing whatsoever to do with Issigonis but still an internal BMC v Leyland argument between those committed to the continuation of his fwd ideas v the rwd ones of Stokes.
You also did make the point that the Mk 3 Cortina already had a better front suspension set up than even a Mc Pherson front Marina would have had.While then making the point that the SD1 was a better option than an upgraded Triumph 2.5 would have been.On that note how could a McPherson front and live axle rear be supposedly better than even the existing Triumph chassis let alone the Granada.While the Mk2 Granada certainly wasn’t an ugly ‘hatchback’ coupe design either.
You said nothing about Japanese products you referred to Ford and GM Germany v UK on the basis of the better environment there regards industrial relations.However if you must bring the Japs into the argument yes another beneficiary of losing the war regards their industrial rebuilding together with an oriental work ethic which is similar to their close neighbours regards unquestioning obedience to orders and long hours for dodgy wage rates.Their ‘activeties’ in WW2 and the fact that the country is now an economically dead deflated duck reliant on massive debt being the result.As for their ‘products’ that’s a matter of opinion and taste.The clue being that rich Japanese rarely buy their own cheap and nasty junk.
As for industrial strife and so called lack of productivety within Leyland Group if they’d have paid them German wages and give them German tooling that excuse and part of the story wouldn’t be there.That’s even assuming it was a large factor anyway.
The main issue on the car side being taking the economic time bomb and liability of BMC into Leyland Group in 1968.Instead of taking on Jaguar and letting BMC sink.On that note Stokes certainly can be blamed for that moral weakness in the face of Wilson’s bs economic ideas.
cav551:
No mention yet of that absolutely superb Marina RWD bells and whistles replacement… the Morris Ital.
The point being that all of BMC’s junk as part of Leyland Group was a heap of crap.
Like a Moth to a flame I keep coming back to this thread, however I think the Moth getting burned alive is the better deal, at least it’s a quick death.
Now can I remind you all that this is TRUCK net, not McPherson strut net, or Stroke net, could we please go back to the discussion of the truck division, but here’s an idea, let’s not go over ground that has already been covered, a novel idea I know…
newmercman:
Like a Moth to a flame I keep coming back to this thread, however I think the Moth getting burned alive is the better deal, at least it’s a quick death.Now can I remind you all that this is TRUCK net, not McPherson strut net, or Stroke net, could we please go back to the discussion of the truck division, but here’s an idea, let’s not go over ground that has already been covered, a novel idea I know…
Good luck with that one 
I’m an eternal optimist lol
Here’s another idea. Let’s all agree to disagree, lock this thread and a start another one…How about “How Could British Leyland Have Become a World Leading Automotive Group in the 21st Century?” 
Too many pages to check, but has anybody mentioned the tractor division?
gingerfold:
Here’s another idea. Let’s all agree to disagree, lock this thread and a start another one…How about “How Could British Leyland Have Become a World Leading Automotive Group in the 21st Century?”
Do you think this design would have helped ■■?
Carryfast:
dave docwra:
What is the price difference between a Marina & the BMW E3 when new?The Triumph 2000 would be the relevant comparison if it’s about a comparable suspension package.The Triumph stood at £1,870 v £1,170 for the 1.8 Marina in 1973.The suspension difference obviously only accounting for a negligable amount of that difference.
The reason I ask is because the Marina is getting such bad press on here & the BMW is being made out to be an alternative, I am still not sure if the average working person could afford the BMW in the good old 70’s…
newmercman:
Like a Moth to a flame I keep coming back to this thread, however I think the Moth getting burned alive is the better deal, at least it’s a quick death.
LMFAO
gazsa401:
gingerfold:
Here’s another idea. Let’s all agree to disagree, lock this thread and a start another one…How about “How Could British Leyland Have Become a World Leading Automotive Group in the 21st Century?”0
Do you think this design would have helped ■■?
I rather like that idea !!
gingerfold:
Here’s another idea. Let’s all agree to disagree, lock this thread and a start another one…How about “How Could British Leyland Have Become a World Leading Automotive Group in the 21st Century?”
Oh that’s easy, Sir Donald should’ve sacked the board, the designers and engineers, closed down all the offices and moved HQ to Leatherhead, there’s a bloke down there who goes by the name of Mr G. Carryfast that has the answer to every question and solution to every problem known in the automotive world…
Would that be the future Lord Carryfast of Detroit by any chance 
newmercman:
gingerfold:
Here’s another idea. Let’s all agree to disagree, lock this thread and a start another one…How about “How Could British Leyland Have Become a World Leading Automotive Group in the 21st Century?”Oh that’s easy, Sir Donald should’ve sacked the board, the designers and engineers, closed down all the offices and moved HQ to Leatherhead, there’s a bloke down there who goes by the name of Mr G. Carryfast that has the answer to every question and solution to every problem known in the automotive world…
[/quote]You are doing the ‘Great Man’ a grave disservice there Newmercman, he has the answer to ALL known problems in the world in general.
Pete.
windrush:
newmercman:
gingerfold:
Here’s another idea. Let’s all agree to disagree, lock this thread and a start another one…How about “How Could British Leyland Have Become a World Leading Automotive Group in the 21st Century?”Oh that’s easy, Sir Donald should’ve sacked the board, the designers and engineers, closed down all the offices and moved HQ to Leatherhead, there’s a bloke down there who goes by the name of Mr G. Carryfast that has the answer to every question and solution to every problem known in the automotive world…
[/quote]
[/quote]You are doing the ‘Great Man’ a grave disservice there Newmercman, he has the answer to ALL known problems in the world in general.
Pete.[/quote
I’m inclined to agree with you there mate
A triumph stag v8 powered marina with jaguar suspension would no doubt be one solution
kr79:
A triumph stag v8 powered marina with jaguar suspension would no doubt be one solution
Ah well, they did fit the V8 in competition Marinas! I remember when the Marina first came out at the BMC dealership I worked at, the cars were under sheets in the showrooms around the UK and they were all unveiled at a certain time of day. We couldn’t get enough to meet demand, several of our fitters ordered them and after a few weeks we ended up adding heaters etc to what were originally destined to be ‘export’ models to get the orders out. We had a Marina pickup as a service vehicle, 1800cc engine and being light it went like a rocket!
Pete.
dave docwra:
Carryfast:
dave docwra:
What is the price difference between a Marina & the BMW E3 when new?The Triumph 2000 would be the relevant comparison if it’s about a comparable suspension package.The Triumph stood at £1,870 v £1,170 for the 1.8 Marina in 1973.The suspension difference obviously only accounting for a negligable amount of that difference.
The reason I ask is because the Marina is getting such bad press on here & the BMW is being made out to be an alternative, I am still not sure if the average working person could afford the BMW in the good old 70’s…
I hope my posts didn’t come across as an exercise in marina Slagging I actually quite like them and nearly bought one a couple of years ago.I still have a look on the marina forum regularly and sometimes wish I had bought it the way the price of them is starting to creep up
My Dad’s mate had an 1800TC Marina, I think it was a coupe? It was pretty quick in its day and the arse end would kick out on a roundabout when he was trying to race my old man in his 3litre Capri, of course we beat him every time, but he put up a good fight, he had a 1275GT Mini too at one point, it was a Dutch import, I don’t remember it being particularly fast, but I do remember he would park it anywhere with no fear of getting a ticket, one time he parked on the roundabout at the Elephant & Castle while my Mum ran in the Green Shield Stamp shop to get some knives and forks, the old bill marched over and told him to move and he just started jibber jabbering a load of nonsense at them with a blank look on his face until me Mum came back and we took off leaving plod stood there scratching his head lol