newmercman:
This is ground we’ve already covered though, no point in arguing the minutiae.
The downfall of British Leyland was, in reality, caused by the creation of British Leyland, it was doomed from the start. Too much government interference and stupid decisions like Bathgate, the losses of the ailing Austin - Morris group denying investment to the successful divisions, thereby making them soldier on with products that were soon to become obsolete in the fast paced ever changing 1970s, a lack of foresight on the potential profitability of the European market, the old school tie network getting all the prime positions, regardless of ability, militancy in the workforce and supply chain and the general shoddy build quality of products that were inferior to start with. All of these are valid reasons for the failure of the group. While the 760/TL12 did play apart in the big picture, it was a tiny part at best.
Firstly I’ve helped to provide some,if not ‘the’ reasons as to ‘why’ the BMC division was a dead duck from the time it was taken on by Leyland Group in 1968.
It would also be fair to say that the introduction of the Ford Granada shouldn’t be under estimated in its effects on the fortunes of Rover and Triumph.Or in fact the obvious differences in resources available to Ford v Leyland Group in the day.
The 760 'and the AEC V8 actually left Leyland an in house truck manufacturer without an in house engine to put in their truck.
Having run Leyland Group built cars in the day and to date in my experience the issue of build quality was/is an exaggerated red herring.Just as is militancy being that I’ve never seen or experienced any situation in which Leyland products weren’t actually there to buy for anyone who wanted one.A motive for that diversion obviously arguably being there to cover any awkward inconvenient questions regarding how designers like Issigonis were given a knighthood for example or who gave the orders for the AEC V8 and 760’s flawed designs and why.
Yes the Granada did cause quite the shake up in the executive car market didn’t it, good product placement helped tremendously too, I read in a book about BL that some TV producers wanted to use BL group cars, but the BL press department kept sending different cars so it messed up continuity and they were forced to turn to Ford, that speaks volumes about the apathetic atmosphere within BL at the time.
The press shots of the Middle East Marathon are another good example of that, it had one blue seat and one brown seat, the idiots thought that was acceptable to showcase their range topper, that is not only apathetic, but verging on sabotage.
I am also sure there were many instances when vehicle deliveries could not be made due to industrial action, not necessarily at the truck assembly plants, but at the smaller supplying factories or at outside suppliers, a case I do remember is 100s of fresh of the line Marathons sat in a field as they had no starter motors. I’m willing to bet that those were just the tip of the iceberg as during the 70s there were more people on picket lines in the West Midlands than there were at work.
newmercman:
Yes the Granada did cause quite the shake up in the executive car market didn’t it, good product placement helped tremendously too, I read in a book about BL that some TV producers wanted to use BL group cars, but the BL press department kept sending different cars so it messed up continuity and they were forced to turn to Ford, that speaks volumes about the apathetic atmosphere within BL at the time.
It was probably more a case of it being a done deal.That might have been the Sweeney example in which they used plenty of Leyland Group product placement both in the fair and very realistic context of the Rover P6 and Triumph 2.5 in the day at least.Ironically the situation on film was an accurate reflection of the strength of the Granada as a product not just a publicity exercise.The only thing in Leyland’s favour being the Rover V8 engine v the Ford 3 litre V6.Although having said that,unlike the P6,the later SD1’s live axle proved itself as capable on a race circuit,as BMW’s semi trailing arm IRS set up which,like the Granada,was similar to the older Triumph’s.Unusually for Ford the Granada winning out over all of them with front wishbones instead of McPherson struts.The combination of which made the Granada a better handling car than the Rover P6,which notwithstanding its police service,rolled like a zb through corners with its quirky suspension design,or to a lesser degree the Triumph 2.5 and ironically even the 3 litre and later the 2.8i Capri.On that note the timing and engineering of the Granada could almost have been purpose made for the job of taking out Rover and Triumph at the time when it needed to,IE brilliant combination of wishbone front semi trailing IRS and rack and pinion steering.
Having said that just maybe if Leyland had managed to get a well sorted V8 P6 3500S with some straight through exhausts for the soundtrack in that starring role it could only have helped.
It’s anyone’s guess what’s been done to make this one handle.
Those P6 Rovers could lean couldn’t they, watching the Sweeney for example you can see the way they wallowed and understeered, it certainly wouldn’t have been my car of choice for a blag lol. I am sure that part of the deal with Ford was that the villains were not allowed to drive Fords, except the Transit, which actually did quite well out of being the van of choice for a team of blaggers, it’s car like handling and performance being one of its big selling points.
It again goes to show the difference between the two companies, Ford people were into making cars, BL people didn’t give a toss. I know Ford had their share of industrial action, but even so they still made a bloody good car. Their whole strategy was much more on the pulse of what the buyers wanted, both in cars and lorries.
I am a little biased as I love a Ford, my family had loads of them, Consuls, Zodiacs and Zephyrs, every model Cortina and my old man had a penchant for a 3 litre Capri, my Mum even had an XR3I! Myself I’ve had a souped up mk1 Mexico replica, a 16i ghia Orion, a mk2 XR2 and a Sierra Cosworth and a couple of Granada Scorpio hatchbacks. I now have an F150 pick up and the wife has a Focus, the Cosworth is the only car I’ve ever owned that I regret getting rid of, I don’t think any of the BL group cars commanded that level of brand loyalty. My Mum had an 1100 and I had an 827 Sterling and of the two I would say the 1100 stood up to the competition better than the Sterling did, it was bloody awful to drive and not a patch on a high spec Granada for comfort and quality.
Yes, I’m a Ford man NMM, from my Ford 100E back in 1966 I am now on my 19th Ford in almost 50 years of car driving. I have had incredibly cost effective motoring in that time, and I can recall only two breakdowns, both repaired under warrenty (one breakdown was actually when I was stopped at temporary traffic lights outside the Ford dealership in Ashbourne, how convenient was that!). In my company car driving days I did 50 to 60,000 miles annually and reliability was paramount. I had a couple of Vauxhall Cavaliers (OK but preferred a Ford). I had a Jaguar 240 for a few months and swore that I would never ever have another Jag. I now drive a 13 plate Mondeo 2,0 litre diesel automatic, a lovely car to drive in every aspect. It was the local Ford dealer’s sales manager’s car, unbadged with a chipped engine that is by some distance the liveliest diesel car I’ve ever driven. I’ve given a few BMWs a surprise from the traffic lights, something I perhaps shouldn’t be doing at my age.
newmercman:
Yes the Granada did cause quite the shake up in the executive car market didn’t it, good product placement helped tremendously too, I read in a book about BL that some TV producers wanted to use BL group cars, but the BL press department kept sending different cars so it messed up continuity and they were forced to turn to Ford, that speaks volumes about the apathetic atmosphere within BL at the time.
The press shots of the Middle East Marathon are another good example of that, it had one blue seat and one brown seat, the idiots thought that was acceptable to showcase their range topper, that is not only apathetic, but verging
I am also sure there were many instances when vehicle deliveries could not be made due to industrial action, not necessarily at the truck assembly plants, but at the smaller supplying factories or at outside suppliers, a case I do remember is 100s of fresh of the line Marathons sat in a field as they had no starter motors. I’m willing to bet that those were just the tip of the iceberg as during the 70s there were more people on picket lines in the West Midlands than there were at work.
That was the case with the new avengers show tthey’d take a yellow rover away for servicing and bring a blue one back .
According to the James May programme on last week there was a two year delay in triumph production because of the strikes
Carryfast:
[At which point if you want more fwd runs into all the other flaws of torque steer and loss of traction off the line through weight transfer v something which drives and steers with the right wheels.
Rear wheel drive getting off the line. It is called axle tramp. something the smaller Fords etc suffered from. IIRC the cheap way of lessening its effect was to carry a passenger all the time - a bag of sand in the boot.
Carryfast:
‘Lemon’ in this case meaning from the point of view of the manufacturer/dealer.IE a description of ‘favourable deal’ obviously isn’t good from the manufacturer’s/dealer’s point of view.When they needed a product which could be sold at full list price no ifs no buts and no favours.While from the buyer’s point of view which could be sold for more privately than as a p/ex at trade in time and in which the dealer wasn’t lumbered with a used one that would have probably ended up losing money on the overall deal at auction.Bearing in mind it’s the used buyer not new who generally takes on all the potential aggro.
The dealer I worked for started as bl and ended up a rover dealer when I worked there he used to make 50 quid a car on metro’s and about a 100 on bigger stuff. I asked him why so little profit and he said we sell new cars to get the part ex in at the right price it’s the second hand car we make the money from and the servicing and warranty work keeps the workshop in profit. He was one
writing the cheques, so if your trade friends weren’t making money on fwd cars they just weren’t any good at it it had nothing to do with the cars.
So by your logic less profit per unit on a fwd BMC heap and higher maintenance costs for the owner and/or higher warranty costs for the manufacturer,is a better business model than more profit per unit on a proper motor,less maintenance costs for the owner and less warranty costs for the manufacturer.
On that note as I remember it the main reason why my Father’s mate no longer required his services was because he effectively retired,not exactly short of a few bob ,well before state retirement age and moved away.While I never heard my father complaining about any shortage in the household finances then as he did when he was working much harder as an employed worker in the engineering manufacturing sector.So I’d guess it was a profitable operation.
Unlike Leyland Group’s.
On that note yes my Father did charge his mate more hours,for doing work on the odd fwd heap that would/should have been a much easier and quicker job on a rwd one.But the downside was that mean’t less profit in the car when it was sold,if it sold,and more hours spent earning the same amount of money per hour on an awkward zb job instead of on an easy one.Hence the general dislike in the trade and customers alike for such liabilities.Unless the deal was,more like seemed,too good to refuse.
No mate I actually agree with you to a point about BL not making money on their cars there costing was all wrong they were grossly overstaffed and at the mercy of a bolshie workforce and this was probably part of the cause of them failing.
The point I disagreed with was the fact you said the dealers/garages didn’t make money out of the fwd cars when you’ve just said that even your dad charged more to service them. The place I worked sold new cars as cheaply as possible but the manufacturer got their full cut whether the dealers made fifty quid or a thousand quid it was the dealers choice what discount he passed onto the customer.
Mention of the FWD Cavalier just reminds me of which common basic problem struck fear into the heart of the motorist; the need for a new clutch. What could be simpler than an earlier FWD Cavalier. No need to lie right underneath the vehicle, nor to risk getting the seats dirty or trim broken inside the vehicle, no need to disconnect the complete drive shaft system, no need to manhandle a slippery, dirty, awkward and heavy gearbox, nor to worry about its oil leaking out everywhere, no need to worry about lining things up and the consequent struggle if things weren’t just right.
Oh and the BMC FWD “heaps”, didn’t they have a set up not that far removed from that of the Cavalier? The BMC dealers I knew had a factory tools for hire board in a prominent position in the parts department featuring the magic flywheel puller, among others available to the customer for the weekend.
Nor IIRC at least with the hydralastic suspension was there normally any need to touch it.
Coming up almost to date with RWD cars and the ‘must-have’ BMW 3 series. What an abortion that N42 B20 engine is; evil, evil thing. That really is a lesson in manufacturer support for the dealer’s workshop profit at the expense of the private owner.
cav551:
Mention of the FWD Cavalier just reminds me of which common basic problem struck fear into the heart of the motorist; the need for a new clutch. What could be simpler than an earlier FWD Cavalier. No need to lie right underneath the vehicle, nor to risk getting the seats dirty or trim broken inside the vehicle, no need to disconnect the complete drive shaft system, no need to manhandle a slippery, dirty, awkward and heavy gearbox, nor to worry about its oil leaking out everywhere, no need to worry about lining things up and the consequent struggle if things weren’t just right.
Oh and the BMC FWD “heaps”, didn’t they have a set up not that far removed from that of the Cavalier? The BMC dealers I knew had a factory tools for hire board in a prominent position in the parts department featuring the magic flywheel puller, among others available to the customer for the weekend.
Nor IIRC at least with the hydralastic suspension was there normally any need to touch it.
Coming up almost to date with RWD cars and the ‘must-have’ BMW 3 series. What an abortion that N42 B20 engine is; evil, evil thing. That really is a lesson in manufacturer support for the dealer’s workshop profit at the expense of the private owner.
The same with the early Astras you could change the clutch in just over half an hour
Carryfast:
[At which point if you want more fwd runs into all the other flaws of torque steer and loss of traction off the line through weight transfer v something which drives and steers with the right wheels.
Rear wheel drive getting off the line. It is called axle tramp. something the smaller Fords etc suffered from. IIRC the cheap way of lessening its effect was to carry a passenger all the time - a bag of sand in the boot.
To be fair the proper way of holding a leaf sprung live axle was/is by using a decent anti tramp and watts modifications and wasn’t/isn’t exactly rocket science and bank breaking.While the issue just transferred into one of engine tramp which eventually tears the engine mounts apart in the case of fwd BMC’s.In addition to whatever torque steer and front wheel spin it was able to generate assuming a comparison of standard cars.
cav551:
Mention of the FWD Cavalier just reminds me of which common basic problem struck fear into the heart of the motorist; the need for a new clutch. What could be simpler than an earlier FWD Cavalier. No need to lie right underneath the vehicle, nor to risk getting the seats dirty or trim broken inside the vehicle, no need to disconnect the complete drive shaft system, no need to manhandle a slippery, dirty, awkward and heavy gearbox, nor to worry about its oil leaking out everywhere, no need to worry about lining things up and the consequent struggle if things weren’t just right.
Oh and the BMC FWD “heaps”, didn’t they have a set up not that far removed from that of the Cavalier? The BMC dealers I knew had a factory tools for hire board in a prominent position in the parts department featuring the magic flywheel puller, among others available to the customer for the weekend.
Nor IIRC at least with the hydralastic suspension was there normally any need to touch it.
Coming up almost to date with RWD cars and the ‘must-have’ BMW 3 series. What an abortion that N42 B20 engine is; evil, evil thing. That really is a lesson in manufacturer support for the dealer’s workshop profit at the expense of the private owner.
The same with the early Astras you could change the clutch in just over half an hour
Meanwhile in the real world of Issigonis fwd BMC’s and don’t listen to those who say it’s easier to do it without taking the motor out.While it was just as likely to have a knackered gearbox after a premature life of being lubricated by engine oil instead of gear oil.In which case unlike a rwd motor removing,let alone fixing,the gearbox is a load more aggro.Also don’t forget to change the water pump whether it’s knackered or not while the motor is out among any other jobs which are easier to get at with it out than in.
Having said that a knackered clutch on a Jag XJ12 is something to be feared even more especially if you’re doing it on your own.Bearing in mind that like the Mini etc it’s an engine and gearbox out together job,which seems like the total weight of a Mini on the crane ,except in the Jag’s case with no arguable other option. Probably no wonder that Leyland didn’t offer a manual option in that case.
As for the Cavalier I lost the plot at the idea of a fwd Cavalier not a rwd one.
dazcapri:
The point I disagreed with was the fact you said the dealers/garages didn’t make money out of the fwd cars when you’ve just said that even your dad charged more to service them. The place I worked sold new cars as cheaply as possible but the manufacturer got their full cut whether the dealers made fifty quid or a thousand quid it was the dealers choice what discount he passed onto the customer.
He charged more hours because it took more hours of awkward messing about which would have been more profitably spent working on other rwd choices.In which case it was his mate ( the dealer ) who was paying for those extra hours and therefore less profit in the car when it was sold for the whole operation.While if it was warranty work at a main dealer that would have been passed back to the manufacturer ( Leyland ).Or if out of warranty work and a customer’s car at whatever garage then the customer pays.As for discounting the reality seems to be that it wasn’t an issue of choice but necessity.Because customers in the used market passed on the higher potential/projected maintenance costs,in the form of poor residual valuations,which obviously then affected new car sale valuations.At which point,like warranty costs,that eventually got passed back to the manufacturer because dealerships weren’t charities.
Carryfast:
Meanwhile in the real world of Issigonis fwd BMC’s and don’t listen to those who say it’s easier to do it without taking the motor out.While it was just as likely to have a knackered gearbox after a premature life of being lubricated by engine oil instead of gear oil.In which case unlike a rwd motor removing,let alone fixing,the gearbox is a load more aggro.Also don’t forget to change the water pump whether it’s knackered or not while the motor is out among any other jobs which are easier to get at with it out than in.
cav551:
Mention of the FWD Cavalier just reminds me of which common basic problem struck fear into the heart of the motorist; the need for a new clutch. What could be simpler than an earlier FWD Cavalier. No need to lie right underneath the vehicle, nor to risk getting the seats dirty or trim broken inside the vehicle, no need to disconnect the complete drive shaft system, no need to manhandle a slippery, dirty, awkward and heavy gearbox, nor to worry about its oil leaking out everywhere, no need to worry about lining things up and the consequent struggle if things weren’t just right…
Look what happens when the designers try to help the mechanic- they make a lovely job of it, as you describe. Why did they bother, when everything else is seemingly designed to be a pig to fix? Those vehicles were aimed at the big fleets, much like errr… the Leyland Buffalo . Vauxhall’s market research must have indicated that enough of their customers were putting enough miles on the cars to wear the clutch out, so justifying adding the easy clutch replacement as a selling point.
Presumably more durable clutches are fitted to more modern cars? I also presume that Leyland presumed that the first user of the 500 series engine would not need to regrind or replace the valves, or do any other “head off” jobs?
Carryfast:
Meanwhile in the real world of Issigonis fwd BMC’s and don’t listen to those who say it’s easier to do it without taking the motor out.While it was just as likely to have a knackered gearbox after a premature life of being lubricated by engine oil instead of gear oil.In which case unlike a rwd motor removing,let alone fixing,the gearbox is a load more aggro.Also don’t forget to change the water pump whether it’s knackered or not while the motor is out among any other jobs which are easier to get at with it out than in.
Having said that a knackered clutch on a Jag XJ12 is something to be feared even more especially if you’re doing it on your own.Bearing in mind that like the Mini etc it’s an engine and gearbox out together job,which seems like the total weight of a Mini on the crane ,except in the Jag’s case with no arguable other option. Probably no wonder that Leyland didn’t offer a manual option in that case.
As for the Cavalier I lost the plot at the idea of a fwd Cavalier not a rwd one.
Look at the car it’s left hand drive. You are watching a bunch of yee haa redneck hillbillies from the good ol’ US of A which just about explains why they are making a total cods of it. It’s a change the lightbulb operation.
As for engine oil lubricated gearboxes Volvo, Fuller and IIRC Spicer all had an engine oil (alternative)/spec SAE 30 or 40 for their gearboxes. The BMC box was no worse than the Triumph 77mm box even though it was using contaminated engine oil, at least it was filtered oil. BMC stuck to their recommendation of 20W/50 oil (preferably Duckhams) throughout, unlike Triumph who changed their mind about which oil for the 77mm seemingly along with the barometric pressure.
dazcapri:
The point I disagreed with was the fact you said the dealers/garages didn’t make money out of the fwd cars when you’ve just said that even your dad charged more to service them. The place I worked sold new cars as cheaply as possible but the manufacturer got their full cut whether the dealers made fifty quid or a thousand quid it was the dealers choice what discount he passed onto the customer.
He charged more hours because it took more hours of awkward messing about which would have been more profitably spent working on other rwd choices.In which case it was his mate ( the dealer ) who was paying for those extra hours and therefore less profit in the car when it was sold for the whole operation.While if it was warranty work at a main dealer that would have been passed back to the manufacturer ( Leyland ).Or if out of warranty work and a customer’s car at whatever garage then the customer pays.As for discounting the reality seems to be that it wasn’t an issue of choice but necessity.Because customers in the used market passed on the higher potential/projected maintenance costs,in the form of poor residual valuations,which obviously then affected new car sale valuations.At which point,like warranty costs,that eventually got passed back to the manufacturer because dealerships weren’t charities.
If he charged by the hour then the more time he spent on a car the more money he made surely? Now I’m no mathematician but if you charge ten quid an hour and you spend eight hours servicing two fwd cars you’ve earned eighty quid or if you service three rwd cars in eight hours you earn eighty quid.
Any dealer worth his salt would have lost money on a car the next time you take one in you alter your prices to account for any extra servicing costs.
The discounting was purely to get cars out of the door new cars,of whatever type,don’t have as much profit as in them as secondhand also we’d sell a new car to a man who if happy with the service would buy a used car for his wife and then maybe his son or daughter would get a car,by the time I started there we were selling to 3 or 4 generations of the same family.
I agree the cost of the warranty work was eventually passed back and that is another reason bl failed
BL weren’t alone in producing lemons, take the Transit as a good example, it hit the scene and changed the way we thought about vans, then came the diesel version and it was a horrid thing, I’m sure Ford had shares in Easy Start at the time! That York engine would’ve finished any other range of vehicles and yet the Transit went on to become the most successful range of vehicles ever produced and they never backtracked and did anything about the York engines until the mid 80s and the introduction of the direct injection engine.
How were Ford able to produce such a lemon and get away with it for so many years?
Carryfast:
[At which point if you want more fwd runs into all the other flaws of torque steer and loss of traction off the line through weight transfer v something which drives and steers with the right wheels.
Rear wheel drive getting off the line. It is called axle tramp. something the smaller Fords etc suffered from. IIRC the cheap way of lessening its effect was to carry a passenger all the time - a bag of sand in the boot.
I borrowed a truck back spring for the boot load in my company ■■■■■■.Phoned Derbyshire Police one evening and they say you couldn’t get along the 515 to Ashbourne as my wife was a midwife at Ashbourne maternity home so we set off from from Doveridge and the snow was really bad across Darley Moor but we like people do in floods and got there and back then the road closed.I wonder if a front wheel drive would have done it with only the engine to hold it down.Many vans I think are front wheel drive but perhaps being an old codger do they have any problem with the weight being on the back
newmercman:
BL weren’t alone in producing lemons, take the Transit as a good example, it hit the scene and changed the way we thought about vans, then came the diesel version and it was a horrid thing, I’m sure Ford had shares in Easy Start at the time! That York engine would’ve finished any other range of vehicles and yet the Transit went on to become the most successful range of vehicles ever produced and they never backtracked and did anything about the York engines until the mid 80s and the introduction of the direct injection engine.
How were Ford able to produce such a lemon and get away with it for so many years?
The V4 petrol motor wasn’t exactly the state of the art in engine design in the day either or the early attempts at 4 cylinder OHC.I’d guess that’s what I meant about resources.Given a big successful US parent covering all the angles Ford UK could live with any weaknesses in the product.On that note as I said given the right products at the right time Leyland might have stood a chance.Which in this case meant a Jaguar sorted wishbone all round SD1 and a Triumph sorted McPherson front and semi trailing IRS Marina and a cynical knock off of the Transit in production for the early 1970’s.
Ironically,at that point,Leyland was probably in a better position regarding engines,with the BMC B series both petrol and diesel and Rover V8 than Ford was with the V4,York and to a lesser extent the V6.Leyland.Unfortunately being let down by too little and/or too late chassis engineering in the form of the Marina,SD1 and Sherpa not to mention the boat anchor of carrying on with Issigonis’ follies after the 1968 merger with BMH.
Which then leaves the issue of AEC sorting that 136x152 TL13.
