A message to all (including myself, for even I have transgressed on occasions): this page is littered with misquotations. When you hit the red ‘QUOTE’ panel in the top right-hand corner, please take the time to stop, look and check that your post does not contain misquotations. It is quite likely that more squabbles on this forum have resulted from people feeling misrepresented, than for any other reason. Misquoting other posters misrepresents them. 
Robert
robert1952:
Yep. Harris Mann himself was interviewed and he laid the responsibility firmly at the feet of the engineering management team for too much interference and an apparent inability to communicate among themselves. An interesting interview! Robert
That doesn’t seem to make much sense.When it was Issigonis,who put BMC on the diverging path between the profitability of,and/or customers who preferred,products like Escorts and Cortinas etc and received a knighthood for it. 
All before BMC was part of Leyland Group and which wasn’t going to be fixed a bit later by replacing the 1100 with the Allegro. 
Subtract Issigonis’ work from the plot, and what is left of the car side of BL?
[zb]
anorak:
Subtract Issigonis’ work from the plot, and what is left of the car side of BL?
As far as I know he had no input into the Triumph range or Rover P5 and P6 or Jaguar ?.While the question is would a rwd successor to the A40 and the Cambridge,instead of the Mini and 1100,have been a better bet for BMC to bring to the table,to contribute to Leyland’s fortunes in 1968 ?.
Can I suggest that we try and put into context the ownership of cars in the 1960s instead of trying to relate modern car ownership to 50 years ago.
It has previously been posted about a “typical suburban street” of the '60s/'70s and the cars that would be seen therein. Well, in my street in Bolton of the 1950s when I was a lad growing up there were 22 homes. Of these 3 households owned cars (an Austin, a Ford, and a Vauxhall), 2 households had motorcycles, and one household had a motorcycle sidecar combination. Everyone else either walked, used public transport, or rode a pushbike.
In 1960 there were 7.2 million registered private cars in the UK. By 1971 there were 19 million cars, and in 2007 there were 31 million. (Sources: The RAC Foundation and Leeds University Institute for Transport Studies). So in the 1960s car ownership more than doubled. Many first time buyers came into the car market. Most of these would have had little interest in how a car worked or which wheels were driven. These people were buying on price and availability. Also, despite the liberating decade of the 1960s there was still a definite social status to car ownership. The make and type, size, of car you drove reflected your social status (unlike today). Those of you of similar age to myself will remember the Doctor’s car, the Bank Manager’s car, the business owner’s car etc.
My point is that it was a totally different world back then to now.
Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Subtract Issigonis’ work from the plot, and what is left of the car side of BL?As far as I know he had no input into the Triumph range or Rover P5 and P6 or Jaguar ?.While the question is would a rwd successor to the A40 and the Cambridge,instead of the Mini and 1100,have been a better bet for BMC to bring to the table,to contribute to Leyland’s fortunes in 1968 ?.
The stuff that was worth keeping, I meant. OK, Jaguar (and Land Rover) survive, but the only other BL-origin car brand still on the market is Mini, which sells on the memory of Issigonis’ innovations. Apart from the SD1, the Rover and Triumph products were superfluous to the BL range from 1968 onwards and, in any case, were inferior to contemporary French, German and Italian products.
Apart from the prestige end of the car market, RWD was outdated technology in 1968.
Carryfast I don’t know what you’ve got against Issigonis he was a great designer,fwd was made popular by citroen and the traction avant all Issigonis did was fit the gearbox under the engine to save space. His brief with the mini was to fit four adults comfortably in a car ten feet long,not sure how you would do that in a rwd car with the technology available at the time,he certainly didn’t force BMC to go fwd his most famous design before that being the rwd minor. Now I’m a fan of rwd myself but car companies have majored on fwd for a reason whether it be production costs,easier to build or whatever I’m sure they know their business better than me or you.
I had 5 years in the motor trade starting in a former BL dealership and the stories the old hands used to tell of the state new cars came in from the factory I’m not surprised BL went bust
gingerfold:
Can I suggest that we try and put into context the ownership of cars in the 1960s instead of trying to relate modern car ownership to 50 years ago.It has previously been posted about a “typical suburban street” of the '60s/'70s and the cars that would be seen therein. Well, in my street in Bolton of the 1950s when I was a lad growing up there were 22 homes. Of these 3 households owned cars (an Austin, a Ford, and a Vauxhall), 2 households had motorcycles, and one household had a motorcycle sidecar combination. Everyone else either walked, used public transport, or rode a pushbike.
In 1960 there were 7.2 million registered private cars in the UK. By 1971 there were 19 million cars, and in 2007 there were 31 million. (Sources: The RAC Foundation and Leeds University Institute for Transport Studies). So in the 1960s car ownership more than doubled. Many first time buyers came into the car market. Most of these would have had little interest in how a car worked or which wheels were driven. These people were buying on price and availability. Also, despite the liberating decade of the 1960s there was still a definite social status to car ownership. The make and type, size, of car you drove reflected your social status (unlike today). Those of you of similar age to myself will remember the Doctor’s car, the Bank Manager’s car, the business owner’s car etc.
My point is that it was a totally different world back then to now.
That’s the point it was a totally different world in the 1960’s/70’s at least.While having grown up around the motor trade during a significant part of that period from the point of view of Leyland’s fortunes it was a world in which there was no place for Issigonis’ fwd heaps.At least unless you were prepared to cut the price below a profitable level.
As an example I can remember my father offloading a typically difficult to shift 1100,which his car dealer mate,who he was working for in the day, ‘thought’ was too good an offer to walk away from at auction. It was a naive young bird in our street who’d just passed her test.It was road worthy having been sorted by him and with a new MOT.The next thing we knew was her father and a few mates turning up with the heap ‘asking’ for the little money she’d paid for it back.Not because there was anything wrong with it but because of what it was. 
As for a street in Bolton being representative of late 1960’s/early 70’s car culture I’d doubt it.Bearing in mind that realistically we’re discussing the period of 1968-1980.During which for an,if not the most important part,at least this is what people were driving.Yes there might be a few fwd BMC’s there but trust me there would have been very little,if any,profit in them new or used for their unfortunate manufacturer or dealer.
youtube.com/watch?v=RiMoay8Y5OE
youtube.com/watch?v=2XqE9H8Waqg
IE it was the Oxford/Cambridge’s replacement Marina that the investment should have been put into not the 1100,1800,Maxi and Allegro.
[zb]
anorak:Carryfast:
[zb]
anorak:
Subtract Issigonis’ work from the plot, and what is left of the car side of BL?As far as I know he had no input into the Triumph range or Rover P5 and P6 or Jaguar ?.While the question is would a rwd successor to the A40 and the Cambridge,instead of the Mini and 1100,have been a better bet for BMC to bring to the table,to contribute to Leyland’s fortunes in 1968 ?.
The stuff that was worth keeping, I meant. OK, Jaguar (and Land Rover) survive, but the only other BL-origin car brand still on the market is Mini, which sells on the memory of Issigonis’ innovations. Apart from the SD1, the Rover and Triumph products were superfluous to the BL range from 1968 onwards and, in any case, were inferior to contemporary French, German and Italian products.
Apart from the prestige end of the car market, RWD was outdated technology in 1968.
Or to to put it another way rwd is the superior solution but it costs more.In which case everyone reached an ‘agreement’ not to compete with rwd in the cheaper market sector.At the end of the day to save the manufacturers cash and/or the employers paying their workforce a decent wage to pay a fair price for a decent car.
As for removing the Triumph 2000/2.5 from Leyland’s portfolio you do know that,unsurprisingly, it sold more than the SD1 as did the Rover P6.
On that note exactly which foreign competitor was the 2.5 supposedly ‘inferior’ to in its price range.Or for that matter what evidence would show that the SD1 chassis wasn’t a retrograde design v the Triumph.
gingerfold:
Can I suggest that we try and put into context the ownership of cars in the 1960s instead of trying to relate modern car ownership to 50 years ago.It has previously been posted about a “typical suburban street” of the '60s/'70s and the cars that would be seen therein. Well, in my street in Bolton of the 1950s when I was a lad growing up there were 22 homes. Of these 3 households owned cars (an Austin, a Ford, and a Vauxhall), 2 households had motorcycles, and one household had a motorcycle sidecar combination. Everyone else either walked, used public transport, or rode a pushbike.
In 1960 there were 7.2 million registered private cars in the UK. By 1971 there were 19 million cars, and in 2007 there were 31 million. (Sources: The RAC Foundation and Leeds University Institute for Transport Studies). So in the 1960s car ownership more than doubled. Many first time buyers came into the car market. Most of these would have had little interest in how a car worked or which wheels were driven. These people were buying on price and availability. Also, despite the liberating decade of the 1960s there was still a definite social status to car ownership. The make and type, size, of car you drove reflected your social status (unlike today). Those of you of similar age to myself will remember the Doctor’s car, the Bank Manager’s car, the business owner’s car etc.
My point is that it was a totally different world back then to now.
Agree 100%
It was a totally different world back then. Perhaps the most pertinent question is who was buying a brand new car in that period? Unlike today, credit was much more difficult to obtain back then, It was a much rarer thing for a blue collar worker to buy a brand new car. If he had a car, which was becoming slightly more likely as the '50s turned into the early '60s, then it was going to be an older model. The brand new car was almost the preserve of the white collar worker, maybe one described then as middle class (or one who told himself he was). He was likely to be a family man with at least one school-age child. The car then as now was a substantial purchase, but the attitude then was only to buy what one could afford, the never-never was not yet a way of life so a significant proportion of car buyers were averse to easy terms, they saved up for what they wanted, relying on a good price for any trade-in. The higher up the salary scale one went, the more likely the buyer would be to take on either a hire purchase agreement or a loan from the bank, hence the ‘professional’s’ car was a far more expensive model.
The customer looking at the possibility of buying a BMC 1100 wasn’t primarily looking for performance, he had grown out of that. He wanted comfort for his brood and a car that stopped when he wanted it to and went where he pointed it. As the roads got more congested and his wife now drove as well, he needed something easy for her to start, easy for her to handle and to park and a vehicle in which she felt safe. The combination of room for the family, front wheel drive, front disc brakes and rack and pinion steering, he could understand and he could see which vehicle was offering all of these. The "bit of tin and a bit of board’ Dagenham Dustbin image influenced the 1st new car buyer, he saw who was buying the Austin Westminster and didn’t think them fools. However was way beyond his reach so he looked at the Austin Cambridge, but even that was still too dear for him and a bit too big and heavy for his wife to drive, so he settled happily on the 1100 from the same stable as the Westminster his bank manager drove.
cav551:
The customer looking at the possibility of buying a BMC 1100 wasn’t primarily looking for performance, he had grown out of that. He wanted comfort for his brood and a car that stopped when he wanted it to and went where he pointed it. As the roads got more congested and his wife now drove as well, he needed something easy for her to start, easy for her to handle and to park and a vehicle in which she felt safe. The combination of room for the family, front wheel drive, front disc brakes and rack and pinion steering, he could understand and he could see which vehicle was offering all of these. The "bit of tin and a bit of board’ Dagenham Dustbin image influenced the 1st new car buyer, he saw who was buying the Austin Westminster and didn’t think them fools. However was way beyond his reach so he looked at the Austin Cambridge, but even that was still too dear for him and a bit too big and heavy for his wife to drive, so he settled happily on the 1100 from the same stable as the Westminster his bank manager drove.
Trust me the choice at that point was more likely going to be a used Marina v ■■■■■■/Cortina with a few outside bets on Hillman Hunter/Avenger among a few other rwd alternatives based on the ( good ) ‘advice’ of the trade or independent garage that ‘looks after’ his motor,let alone his own good sense if he looks after his own. While realistically at this point in time IE late 1960’s/early 70’s on the bank manager has long since moved onto the Rover P5B if not Triumph 2.5 or Rover P6 with the Westminster being extinct at that point.
Carryfast:
cav551:
The customer looking at the possibility of buying a BMC 1100 wasn’t primarily looking for performance, he had grown out of that. He wanted comfort for his brood and a car that stopped when he wanted it to and went where he pointed it. As the roads got more congested and his wife now drove as well, he needed something easy for her to start, easy for her to handle and to park and a vehicle in which she felt safe. The combination of room for the family, front wheel drive, front disc brakes and rack and pinion steering, he could understand and he could see which vehicle was offering all of these. The "bit of tin and a bit of board’ Dagenham Dustbin image influenced the 1st new car buyer, he saw who was buying the Austin Westminster and didn’t think them fools. However was way beyond his reach so he looked at the Austin Cambridge, but even that was still too dear for him and a bit too big and heavy for his wife to drive, so he settled happily on the 1100 from the same stable as the Westminster his bank manager drove.Trust me the choice at that point was more likely going to be a used Marina v ■■■■■■/Cortina with a few outside bets on Hillman Hunter/Avenger among a few other rwd alternatives based on the ( good ) ‘advice’ of the trade or independent garage that ‘looks after’ his motor,let alone his own good sense if he looks after his own.
The 1100 was the best selling car for almost a decade from its arrival in 62,apart from a short time when the mk2 cortina took the crown which it then lost back to the austin when they introduced the 1300 engine,so the Austin would’ve been around in large numbers in the late 60’s early 70’s so someone must’ve bought the second hand ones. The marina didn’t appear till 71 so wouldn’t have been common on the second hand market. As an aside the marina and allegro were both designed by ex ford men to a standard set by Lord Stokes who’s brief was that the Morris should be seen as a direct competitor to the Ford of the day but the Austin should be a bit different and quirky
dazcapri:
Carryfast:
cav551:
The customer looking at the possibility of buying a BMC 1100 wasn’t primarily looking for performance, he had grown out of that. He wanted comfort for his brood and a car that stopped when he wanted it to and went where he pointed it. As the roads got more congested and his wife now drove as well, he needed something easy for her to start, easy for her to handle and to park and a vehicle in which she felt safe. The combination of room for the family, front wheel drive, front disc brakes and rack and pinion steering, he could understand and he could see which vehicle was offering all of these. The "bit of tin and a bit of board’ Dagenham Dustbin image influenced the 1st new car buyer, he saw who was buying the Austin Westminster and didn’t think them fools. However was way beyond his reach so he looked at the Austin Cambridge, but even that was still too dear for him and a bit too big and heavy for his wife to drive, so he settled happily on the 1100 from the same stable as the Westminster his bank manager drove.Trust me the choice at that point was more likely going to be a used Marina v ■■■■■■/Cortina with a few outside bets on Hillman Hunter/Avenger among a few other rwd alternatives based on the ( good ) ‘advice’ of the trade or independent garage that ‘looks after’ his motor,let alone his own good sense if he looks after his own.
The 1100 was the best selling car for almost a decade from its arrival in 62,apart from a short time when the mk2 cortina took the crown which it then lost back to the austin when they introduced the 1300 engine,so the Austin would’ve been around in large numbers in the late 60’s early 70’s so someone must’ve bought the second hand ones. The marina didn’t appear till 71 so wouldn’t have been common on the second hand market. As an aside the marina and allegro were both designed by ex ford men to a standard set by Lord Stokes who’s brief was that the Morris should be seen as a direct competitor to the Ford of the day but the Austin should be a bit different and quirky
Firstly in the case of Leyland Group it’s only what BMC had to bring to the table in and post 1968 not before that matters.
As for sales volumes it isn’t just numbers that matters.It’s more importantly also profitability and return on investment.Which in this case also continues into the used market as profitable from the point of view of the dealer and the customer in terms of residual values.On that note the fwd BMC’s were unarguably ( rightly ) unwanted heaps both in the new and used market of the day and which as a result needed loads of discounting to shift the things.While by the same criterea it was the rwd opposition which made money.Simply because they were a more or less superior drive and much easier and cheaper to maintain.The problem in this case being that BMC had no credible profitable rwd products to bring to the table in 1968 when Leyland Group took on BMH.Having previously effectively ditched the idea in favour of the Mini/1100,1800 etc. The Marina actually being an under funded panic reaction to that fact with a product that was,as a result,an obsolete,too little,too late solution to save BMC in that market sector.It’s popularity with customers,notwithstanding that fact,showing just how meeting that important market sector,with the right rwd product,was.
However those who’d previously supported Issigonis’ knighthood certainly weren’t going to then lose face by either admitting it in the day by transferring the effort and investment needed back into rwd products like the Marina.Or telling that piece of automotive history as it was.
Carryfast:
However those who’d previously supported Issigonis’ knighthood certainly weren’t going to then lose face by either admitting it in the day by transferring the effort and investment needed back into rwd products like the Marina.Or telling that piece of automotive history as it was.
He was given a guide to work towards & he certainly fulfilled this, and in my opinion for whats it’s worth, he was way ahead of most designers in his day. The vehicles he designed have a world wide following to this day & I am sure the vehicles will still be here and maintained by enthusiasts & collectors long after we have shuffled off.
tyneside:
Can anyone remember the wheel nut debacle on the T45 range ■■?
Tyneside.
Hazy memory on this one, were they a shallow nut or were they handed or did they go all the way & have both issues ?
dave docwra:
Carryfast:
However those who’d previously supported Issigonis’ knighthood certainly weren’t going to then lose face by either admitting it in the day by transferring the effort and investment needed back into rwd products like the Marina.Or telling that piece of automotive history as it was.He was given a guide to work towards & he certainly fulfilled this, and in my opinion for whats it’s worth, he was way ahead of most designers in his day. The vehicles he designed have a world wide following to this day & I am sure the vehicles will still be here and maintained by enthusiasts & collectors long after we have shuffled off.
To be fair the subjective valuations and preferences of the classic world don’t always reflect the harsh reality of the late 1960’s to 1980 new and used car market.While there’s no way that the idea of driving with the same wheels as being used for steering can be dressed up as anything other than inferior.In addition to the access advantages of the longitudinal configuration.While even today I’d doubt if many people would choose a Volvo over a BMW 3 or 5 series for example often to the point where higher purchase price is justified by better residual values.As for the classic market a bog standard Cortina Mk1 or 2 is worth around twice as much as an equivalent 1100 or 1300.While a Lotus Cortina is worth ‘a bit’ more than a Mini Cooper for some reason.
dave docwra:
tyneside:
Can anyone remember the wheel nut debacle on the T45 range ■■?
Tyneside.Hazy memory on this one, were they a shallow nut or were they handed or did they go all the way & have both issues ?
Not sure exactly how many vehicles were affected but certainly two or three of ours (constructors and freighters x & y reg) were delivered new with wheel nuts too shallow to get a wheel brace or heavy duty socket on. No idea re the thinking or design behind that one!! Leyland had to supply new nuts under warranty and IIRC we had to change about 300 in total.
Tyneside
Going back to Carryfast’s comment about my Bolton street not being typical of the '60s and '70s, well it had changed lots in the 10 years after we moved there in 1958 (when there were only 3 car owners). It reflected the doubling of car ownership borne out by the statistics. I cannot remember how many cars were in the street in 1968 but by then there were more front doors with cars parked outside than not. For example, at 18 years old I bought my first car in 1966 (a second hand Ford 100E that cost £125). The motorcycle riders had moved up to cars and my immediate neighbours (up to next door but one on both sides all had cars). Our street comprised mainly blue collar workers ranging from labourers to dustbin lorry driver to skilled engineering workers, and wages clerk, with a smattering of retirees. No one was unemployed and most wage earners who hadn’t already bought a car were saving up for one. Hire Purchase, about the only sort of credit available then, (the “Never-Never”) was frowned upon by most families.
gingerfold:
Going back to Carryfast’s comment about my Bolton street not being typical of the '60s and '70s, well it had changed lots in the 10 years after we moved there in 1958 (when there were only 3 car owners). It reflected the doubling of car ownership borne out by the statistics. I cannot remember how many cars were in the street in 1968 but by then there were more front doors with cars parked outside than not. For example, at 18 years old I bought my first car in 1966 (a second hand Ford 110E that cost £125). The motorcycle riders had moved up to cars and my immediate neighbours (up to next door but one on both sides all had cars). Our street comprised mainly blue collar workers ranging from labourers to dustbin lorry driver to skilled engineering workers, and wages clerk, with a smattering of retirees. No one was unemployed and most wage earners who hadn’t already bought a car were saving up for one. Hire Purchase, about the only sort of credit available then, (the “Never-Never”) was frowned upon by most families.
You’re 4 years older than me Graham, but I remember vividly the car-scape street scenes of the '50s and '60s; and one thing that strikes me now, looking back, is the absence of new cars of the day - those were a rarity. Even well into the '60s there was still a large number of pre-war cars whose lives had been extended by spending the war years on bricks because of fuel rationing. The advent of the ten-year test, later to be called the MOT, culled a lot of these in the late '50s, but cars from the '30s & '40s were still abundant by the time I had my driving licence. Many of my age-group bought them as their first ‘old banger’. So the purchase of contemporary new cars was actually blurred by the abundance of old vehicles that were cheap to buy, as yet unrestricted by regulations and needed using up! Robert
robert1952:
gingerfold:
Going back to Carryfast’s comment about my Bolton street not being typical of the '60s and '70s, well it had changed lots in the 10 years after we moved there in 1958 (when there were only 3 car owners). It reflected the doubling of car ownership borne out by the statistics. I cannot remember how many cars were in the street in 1968 but by then there were more front doors with cars parked outside than not. For example, at 18 years old I bought my first car in 1966 (a second hand Ford 110E that cost £125). The motorcycle riders had moved up to cars and my immediate neighbours (up to next door but one on both sides all had cars). Our street comprised mainly blue collar workers ranging from labourers to dustbin lorry driver to skilled engineering workers, and wages clerk, with a smattering of retirees. No one was unemployed and most wage earners who hadn’t already bought a car were saving up for one. Hire Purchase, about the only sort of credit available then, (the “Never-Never”) was frowned upon by most families.You’re 4 years older than me Graham, but I remember vividly the car-scape street scenes of the '50s and '60s; and one thing that strikes me now, looking back, is the absence of new cars of the day - those were a rarity. Even well into the '60s there was still a large number of pre-war cars whose lives had been extended by spending the war years on bricks because of fuel rationing. The advent of the ten-year test, later to be called the MOT, culled a lot of these in the late '50s, but cars from the '30s & '40s were still abundant by the time I had my driving licence. Many of my age-group bought them as their first ‘old banger’. So the purchase of contemporary new cars was actually blurred by the abundance of old vehicles that were cheap to buy, as yet unrestricted by regulations and needed using up! Robert
Totally agree my dads first new car was when he retired he couldn’t afford a new car when we were growing up
I’m 51 and I’ve still never had a new car
You bought what was affordable and practical whatever badge was fitted