Hello [ZB], the answer is “male menopause” Cheerio for now.
Wheel Nut:
Lawrence Dunbar:
Aye, the same as their alloy air tanks bolted to steel, then the reaction between the two caused all sorts of problems, the alloy used to mush away to what had a surface that ressembled orange peel, what a let down to the original Fodens Eh, Regards Larry.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^- And that is very basic schoolboy chemistry
Carryfast the all american boy, how can you explain the fact that Harley Davidson a small agricultural manufacturer didn’t save the British Motorcycle industry, they certainly never harmed it
It took Japanese Suspension and Brakes to make the H-D welcome in Europe, oh and a lot of design input from Porsche. Even now it doesn’t measure up to the competition
The difference between Harley D’s and Indians v their British and Italian competition,based along the same basic design lines (Brough Superior,Vincent HRD,Ducati 998 etc) was that the US buyers have (rightly) preferred the idea that if their offspring want to go and have some ‘fun’ on the roads they (rightly) decided that it’s better if they did that using 4 wheels,a big V8 and with plenty of metal around them which led to the Muscle Car of the 1960’s.It’s also why fast bikes were and still are looked down on over there.
There’s no other real reason as to why the Harley couldn’t have been,or the Indian wasn’t,developed into a competitor to any or all of those bikes over the years.But how many lives were saved on US roads by going for the idea of slow but reliable simple V Twin bikes for their young road users who wanted them and cheap,fast,big V8 powered cars instead ?.So basically bikes have never really been their thing anyway. 
And where were the Germans and all the other Europeans and the Japanese when all this was going on 
.Yeah right BMW’s which couldn’t be leaned without taking the engine with it or lifting the bike off the road,or catch a British bike anyway when they were on the straights,and the Japanese were busy sweeping up the wreckage after Hiroshima and Nagasaki and trying to work out how best to catch the British bikes.Which is why the cafe racers of the 1950’s,of who I’ve known plenty,preferred the Vincent.Or an Ariel Saquare 4 if they couldn’t afford the Vincent.
However from recent experience they also knew that it was American trucks which were better than British or European ones and,like the Americans,later on advised their sons to keep away from fast bikes,wherever they are made,and go for fast cars instead and leave the Kamikazes to get on with it. 
ramone:
The TM4400 didn`t sell here but the V8 Scanias did as did the V8 Mercs and the 12 litre Volvos so who was buying these big power motors (for the time) surely not those very same hauliers you blamed for being backward in their thinking and causing the death of British lorry manufacturing .The more blatantly obvious reason is that no one fancied a big Detroit engined Bedford… here we go for another 3 paragraph reply
The fact that anyone here thought that a naturally aspirated Merc was more efficient,and even in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s there were probably still more British customers buying and running Gardner or low rated ■■■■■■■ powered day cabbed British heaps,or at best the T 45,than there were the DAF 2800 or F12,and the fact that they did buy the Detroit powered TM but mainly in 7 Litre V6 non turbocharged form to run at 32 t,says everything. 
[zb]
anorak:
I have never understood the appeal of Harleys- 1300cc and 60bhp- that is Morris Marina territory, and people used to mock them for having old-fashioned engines, 40 years ago. Can someone explain? CF?
Don’t need the speed because they want to stay alive and prefer the reliability and money saving of having an unstressed easy to work on motor.
Carryfast:
Wheel Nut:
Lawrence Dunbar:
Aye, the same as their alloy air tanks bolted to steel, then the reaction between the two caused all sorts of problems, the alloy used to mush away to what had a surface that ressembled orange peel, what a let down to the original Fodens Eh, Regards Larry.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^- And that is very basic schoolboy chemistry
Carryfast the all american boy, how can you explain the fact that Harley Davidson a small agricultural manufacturer didn’t save the British Motorcycle industry, they certainly never harmed it
It took Japanese Suspension and Brakes to make the H-D welcome in Europe, oh and a lot of design input from Porsche. Even now it doesn’t measure up to the competition
The difference between Harley D’s and Indians v their British and Italian competition,based along the same basic design lines (Brough Superior,Vincent HRD,Ducati 998 etc) was that the US buyers have (rightly) preferred the idea that if their offspring want to go and have some ‘fun’ on the roads they (rightly) decided that it’s better if they did that using 4 wheels,a big V8 and with plenty of metal around them which led to the Muscle Car of the 1960’s.It’s also why fast bikes were and still are looked down on over there.
There’s no other real reason as to why the Harley couldn’t have been,or the Indian wasn’t,developed into a competitor to any or all of those bikes over the years.But how many lives were saved on US roads by going for the idea of slow but reliable simple V Twin bikes for their young road users who wanted them and cheap,fast,big V8 powered cars instead ?.So basically bikes have never really been their thing anyway.
And where were the Germans and all the other Europeans and the Japanese when all this was going on
However from recent experience they also knew that it was American trucks which were better than British or European ones and,like the Americans,later on advised their sons to keep away from fast bikes,wherever they are made,and go for fast cars instead and leave the Kamikazes to get on with it.
At least his reply proves he talks ■■■■■■■■ about every subject ever broached, now a world renowned expert on motorcycles and racing. Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainey, Nicky Hayden, Cal Rayborn, Colin Edwards, Scott Parker, Bubba Schoebert, John Hopkins and Ben Spies were all spoilt by their parents with V8 muscle cars
Oh, and Carryfast if you can touch the cylinder head down on the road with a BMW you will be the first man in the world to do it 
Wheel Nut:
Carryfast:
Wheel Nut:
Lawrence Dunbar:
Aye, the same as their alloy air tanks bolted to steel, then the reaction between the two caused all sorts of problems, the alloy used to mush away to what had a surface that ressembled orange peel, what a let down to the original Fodens Eh, Regards Larry.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^- And that is very basic schoolboy chemistry
Carryfast the all american boy, how can you explain the fact that Harley Davidson a small agricultural manufacturer didn’t save the British Motorcycle industry, they certainly never harmed it
It took Japanese Suspension and Brakes to make the H-D welcome in Europe, oh and a lot of design input from Porsche. Even now it doesn’t measure up to the competition
The difference between Harley D’s and Indians v their British and Italian competition,based along the same basic design lines (Brough Superior,Vincent HRD,Ducati 998 etc) was that the US buyers have (rightly) preferred the idea that if their offspring want to go and have some ‘fun’ on the roads they (rightly) decided that it’s better if they did that using 4 wheels,a big V8 and with plenty of metal around them which led to the Muscle Car of the 1960’s.It’s also why fast bikes were and still are looked down on over there.
There’s no other real reason as to why the Harley couldn’t have been,or the Indian wasn’t,developed into a competitor to any or all of those bikes over the years.But how many lives were saved on US roads by going for the idea of slow but reliable simple V Twin bikes for their young road users who wanted them and cheap,fast,big V8 powered cars instead ?.So basically bikes have never really been their thing anyway.
And where were the Germans and all the other Europeans and the Japanese when all this was going on
However from recent experience they also knew that it was American trucks which were better than British or European ones and,like the Americans,later on advised their sons to keep away from fast bikes,wherever they are made,and go for fast cars instead and leave the Kamikazes to get on with it.
At least his reply proves he talks ■■■■■■■■ about every subject ever broached, now a world renowned expert on motorcycles and racing. Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainey, Nicky Hayden, Cal Rayborn, Colin Edwards, Scott Parker, Bubba Schoebert, John Hopkins and Ben Spies were all spoilt by their parents with V8 muscle cars
Think you missed the bit about the advice ‘leave the kamikazes to get on with it obviously using Japanese bikes’.Which probably explains why the US car industry sold so many muscle cars during the 1960’s although maybe you can provide some figures that show that the Japs have sold more bikes in the states than the car makers have sold US muscle cars there and Harley have sold bikes combined.
But the fact that they’ve provided so many good race bike riders might be because their fast bike fans prefer to stay off the roads and stay on the track instead.Which might also explain why American riders have never been known for their TT race winners.
Wheel Nut:
Oh, and Carryfast if you can touch the cylinder head down on the road with a BMW you will be the first man in the world to do it
Not me I’m just going by good authority from those who I believed when they told me that’s probably what would hit the ground before the exhausts or the pegs and that’s why the Germans decided to leave the zb things in Russia instead of trying to ride them home. 
Apart from Pat Hennan and Dave Roper you mean. American TT riders
You need to get your head out of a comic book and go and watch a bike race, watch the BMW Boxer Cup and see how well those things go round corners, the most successful sidecar outfit was a BMW and wasnt beaten for 22 years
Saviem:
Hello all, a sad end to yet another potentially great, and thought provoking thread! You know back in the late 90s, early into retirement from "active "service, I indulged my interests and amongst them started importing “American iron”. Nothing really wild, but stuff that I thought that I could have some fun with, and sell on for a reasonable return. Mainly Kenworth, some Peterbilt, the odd Mack, (really my first love, having worked in close association with them in the 80s), and associated bits and pieces. Mainly ■■■■■■■ powered, one or two Cats, and a few with Detroits. They were great “ego trips” to drive, particularly those with twin gearboxes, but in all honesty they really were light years behind the European offering. If you bought one as an owner driver, then you would love it as your funds were sunk in it, but really anyone who imagines the US offering any better than the European, sadly has little knowledge of our industry! [ZB], in his previous post really sumerises the total picture, the questions are relevant and concise, as is the conclusion. And carl williams is very close to the actual truth regarding GM and Ford departing our shores. Our politicians could not be trusted, they led GM along the isle, but because of the jingoistic histeria regarding Land Rover, failed to turn up at the alter. It was enough to turn the Ford people towards Italy, Italian Americanism does have a certain synergy! All in all a sad old job. Cheerio for now.
How can something like a cab over Aerodyne with any of the decent engine options in it and a 13 speed fuller box have been ‘lightyears behind’ a pre globetrotter cabbed,slow changing heavier to use synchro box with the splitter control mounted on the dash,that needed to be run up to over 2000 rpm just to make 385 hp,Volvo.And then,when someone argues,they get branded as having ‘little knowledge of our industry’.
Unfortunately for that point of view there’s been loads of that type of wagon bought over the years and millions of miles covered by drivers,that knew how to drive,in a market where if the Volvo was going to make it it would have to do it on it’s own merits,without the aid of any bs Euro Type Approval regs and in a market where drivers and operators knew a good wagon when they saw one and buy it on that basis.Not some stereotypical Euro lightyears ahead US lightyears behind bs argument.
Unlike Leyland or any of the other British manufacturers,KW,amongst other US manufacturers,are still turning out very similar spec,but updated,trucks to this day in competition with the same established big euro and scandinavian manufacturers,in the colonial markets, who have supposedly been ‘lightyears ahead’ all these years.
But you’re right that our politicians couldn’t be trusted.Ever since the zb’s took us into the EEC/EU. 
Paccar put DAF cabs on their oilfield tractors. Their standard engine is a DAF MX. KW and Peterbilt have done plenty of good engineering over the years, but Paccar are not daft. Their main competitor in their home market is Volvo, I think. Or is it Daimler? Maybe our resident Yankophile can give us last year’s sales figures for the US Class 8 market.
Wheel Nut:
At least his reply proves he talks ■■■■■■■■ about every subject ever broached, now a world renowned expert on motorcycles and racing. Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainey, Nicky Hayden, Cal Rayborn, Colin Edwards, Scott Parker, Bubba Schoebert, John Hopkins and Ben Spies were all spoilt by their parents with V8 muscle cars
A few pages back I pointed out holes in CarryFast’s arguments (such as they were) about the NZ market, Australian truck “manufacturing”, US middleweight trucks and the increasing dominance of Jap trucks in the US. I also asked how conditions in NZ NOW have any bearing on market conditions in the UK 40+ years ago, and why it was CarryFast (as an “industry insider”) endlessly repeated the nonsense that British hauliers were to blame for the demise of the home-grown industry.
Unsurprisingly CarryFast ignored the points and questions raised, as I suspect he(?) has done many times with others before. I’ll leave others to draw their own conclusions, but I suspected CarryFast had no answers. Turns out I underestimated his capacity to drown everything and everybody in reams and reams of repetitive, regurgitated drivel. Now that he’s started spouting about bikes it’s quite clear to me he is way out of his depth — as any fule kno the Hardly Rideable is a relic from 60+ years ago that a modern Jap 250 can run rings around, the American Muscle Car he wets himself over was then - and is still largely now - an overpowered, under-designed, cart-sprung dinosaur that folds in half at the first set of bends. CarryFast conveniently skates straight past the inconvenient fact that Jap bikes dominate the US bike market despite US protectionist policies. His statement that in the 1950s “the Japanese were busy sweeping up the wreckage after Hiroshima and Nagasaki and trying to work out how best to catch the British bikes” is, apart from being insulting, demonstrable bollox — if true, how the [zb] did Honda participate in and win a string of 125 and 250 GPs in Europe from 1962 on? How did Honda compete so well with their125 and 250cc bikes in the IoM TT in 1959/60? When Honda introduced the CB750 to Britain in 1969, where was Ariel? Vincent? Brough? Sunbeam? Matchless? AJS? Dead and buried. Where was Triumph, BSA and Norton? Still producing 30+ year old technology that only stopped leaking oil when it broke down. As to Harley - who?
But I do hope this won’t stop Carry On Carryfast making a total [zb] of himself, I need the laughs.
You want to get him on politics immigration age gap relationships and homosexuality thats a bundle of laughs. 
I think that had it not been for the political interference, GM would have taken over Leyland and continued the production of the TK/TL sized range at Elsmere Port, which by now would have evolved over the years into something today would have been unrecognisable, but a world beater in its class, and developed the Leyland plant into a manufacturing base for higher weight vehicles that would have had the TM and maybe a little (Not much) Leyland DNA. I am sure everyone has seen the futuristic designs Bedford Engineers were working on and with Leyland manufacturing facilities and their dealer network the result would have been very good higher weight vehicles.
The problems that Bedford had, that limited TM development and of course sales was lack of production facilities and dealers that were OK for the traditional Bedford range but not for the heavier market. After all were Vauxhall agents with Bedford as and add on.
I’m sure the management of Bedford and their bosses based in America realised this and had seen this as the benefit of the Leyland takeover. Land Rover had been the icing on the cake, but when they saw how badly they were treated by our two faced government they just gave up and closed Bedford.
It maybe also hard to realise but had GM gone ahead in this direction Ford would have decided that they too would compete. Who knows perhaps they would have taken over something like Foden, ERF, or Seddon-Atkinson. Our British manufacturing are by todays newspapers becoming, once again world leaders in car production. Without government interference and American help we might still have had good HGV manufacturing industry.
The present Leyland Trucks Assembly Plant (owned by Paccar / DAF of course) has evolved out of the then new factory that was constructed to build the T45. It is of course an assembly facility and not an integrated manufacturing plant, but assembles more vehicles per annum than the old Leyland company ever did with an area of about one tenth the size of the various piecemeal Leyland factories that used to be in Lancashire and with about one tenth of the workforce those factories employed. What is regarded now as a world class truck production facilty has been achieved with a British labour force backed by American / European owners and investment.
ParkRoyal2100:
Wheel Nut:
At least his reply proves he talks ■■■■■■■■ about every subject ever broached, now a world renowned expert on motorcycles and racing. Kenny Roberts, Freddie Spencer, Eddie Lawson and Wayne Rainey, Nicky Hayden, Cal Rayborn, Colin Edwards, Scott Parker, Bubba Schoebert, John Hopkins and Ben Spies were all spoilt by their parents with V8 muscle carsA few pages back I pointed out holes in CarryFast’s arguments (such as they were) about the NZ market, Australian truck “manufacturing”, US middleweight trucks and the increasing dominance of Jap trucks in the US. I also asked how conditions in NZ NOW have any bearing on market conditions in the UK 40+ years ago, and why it was CarryFast (as an “industry insider”) endlessly repeated the nonsense that British hauliers were to blame for the demise of the home-grown industry.
Unsurprisingly CarryFast ignored the points and questions raised, as I suspect he(?) has done many times with others before. I’ll leave others to draw their own conclusions, but I suspected CarryFast had no answers. Turns out I underestimated his capacity to drown everything and everybody in reams and reams of repetitive, regurgitated drivel. Now that he’s started spouting about bikes it’s quite clear to me he is way out of his depth — as any fule kno the Hardly Rideable is a relic from 60+ years ago that a modern Jap 250 can run rings around, the American Muscle Car he wets himself over was then - and is still largely now - an overpowered, under-designed, cart-sprung dinosaur that folds in half at the first set of bends. CarryFast conveniently skates straight past the inconvenient fact that Jap bikes dominate the US bike market despite US protectionist policies. His statement that in the 1950s “the Japanese were busy sweeping up the wreckage after Hiroshima and Nagasaki and trying to work out how best to catch the British bikes” is, apart from being insulting, demonstrable bollox — if true, how the [zb] did Honda participate in and win a string of 125 and 250 GPs in Europe from 1962 on? How did Honda compete so well with their125 and 250cc bikes in the IoM TT in 1959/60? When Honda introduced the CB750 to Britain in 1969, where was Ariel? Vincent? Brough? Sunbeam? Matchless? AJS? Dead and buried. Where was Triumph, BSA and Norton? Still producing 30+ year old technology that only stopped leaking oil when it broke down. As to Harley - who?
But I do hope this won’t stop Carry On Carryfast making a total [zb] of himself, I need the laughs.
The reason as to why the New Zealand market ‘now’ is relevant to what happened to the (heavy) British truck manufacturing industry (which as I’ve said seems to be what the OP was asking the question about),is that it shows that,in a market,which isn’t subject to European Type Approval,and in which it’s customers know what the zb they are buying and know a good wagon when they see one,it’s,not surprisingly,US trucks that have been able to compete with European trucks not British ones from the time when it all mattered to date.
As for Japanese bikes as I’ve said who cares unless you’re one of those kamikazes who can’t afford to buy and run a decent car.As for American muscle cars we’re talking about the state of the art there as it stood during the 1960’s not the 21 st century and in which Jags were the only other real competitor not the backward European or Japanese ‘competition’.Unless you can think of something built by the European or Jap car makers,at that time,which was faster,better built,at the same price.
Modern day developments of the idea,such as the Cadillac CTSV,and modern day MOPARS and the Ozzie V8’s,like the Vauxhall VXR8 (expecially in supercharged Bathurst form) have kept the spirit of the idea,of a fast,good value for money car,alive.At least in places where,unlike Britain,they don’t tax decent cars off the road and they don’t have PC tossers like Brake shouting for all young drivers to be kept in Vauxhall Novas etc until they are 30.Probably based on the results of what happens when you give the average modern day British boy racer a zb overpowered,front wheel drive,Japanese ricer heap that’s made out of tin foil, which they then put off the road the first time that they take it out on the road
Golf r32 audi s3 audi rs4 bmw 335 bmw m3 ford focus st ford focus rs mini cooper s scoobys mitsubishi evo.
Got to be better than the oversize ford capris the burger munchers have although i wouldn’t mind a dodge charger
Carl Williams:
I think that had it not been for the political interference, GM would have taken over Leyland and continued the production of the TK/TL sized range at Elsmere Port, which by now would have evolved over the years into something today would have been unrecognisable, but a world beater in its class, and developed the Leyland plant into a manufacturing base for higher weight vehicles that would have had the TM and maybe a little (Not much) Leyland DNA. I am sure everyone has seen the futuristic designs Bedford Engineers were working on and with Leyland manufacturing facilities and their dealer network the result would have been very good higher weight vehicles.
The problems that Bedford had, that limited TM development and of course sales was lack of production facilities and dealers that were OK for the traditional Bedford range but not for the heavier market. After all were Vauxhall agents with Bedford as and add on.
I’m sure the management of Bedford and their bosses based in America realised this and had seen this as the benefit of the Leyland takeover. Land Rover had been the icing on the cake, but when they saw how badly they were treated by our two faced government they just gave up and closed Bedford.
It maybe also hard to realise but had GM gone ahead in this direction Ford would have decided that they too would compete. Who knows perhaps they would have taken over something like Foden, ERF, or Seddon-Atkinson. Our British manufacturing are by todays newspapers becoming, once again world leaders in car production. Without government interference and American help we might still have had good HGV manufacturing industry.
As anyone can see by just a quick look at this topic and by what ‘actually’ happened,which was all the combined result of backward British buying habits and then British customer attitudes to US products,compared to their (eventual) acceptance of European imports,and Britain’s entry into the EU there’s no way that the British truck manufacturing industry could have survived with or without the co opeartion of the US truck manufacturers.There’s also no way that the US manufacturers would/should have wanted to have any long term involvement,of the type required to do the job,in such a hostile market place.From GM’s point of view the GM Land Rover deal would have been just that nothing more with the inevitable (correct) ditching and closure of all British heavy truck manufacturing operations.
Hi Carl, here’s another Bedford article for you: heritagecommercials.com/news … bedford-tl
I reckon the Government was right to be wary of the long-term motives of GM. Its investment in Bedford appeared somewhat half-hearted- the TK was its core market, yet the company took until 1980 to fit it with a tilt cab (TL). The TM was its heavy range for Europe, but GM did not appear to make much effort to market it- its sales were mostly in GB, with a few in Spain and Italy. If GM had taken Leyland over, it would not have wanted two competing ranges of products in the same market. Leyland’s product range, in 1986, was all new, so GM would, most likely, have put their marketing eggs in this basket. Leyland had modern production facilities, so GM probably would have immediately transferred assembly of the Bedford product to Lancashire.
Their insistence of the inclusion of Land Rover in the package was the killer. GM had the facility to continue development of LR’s range of cars, without heavy investment in design, development and tooling- they could simply have built them on US platforms. The same could not be said for Leyland- by 1995-2000, another complete new range would have been needed. Would GM have funded this? The Government’s desire seemed to be that the design and manufacture of lorries would continue in GB, and the best option at the time appeared to be that Leyland’s future was safer as it was- independent of foreign influence.
kr79:
Golf r32 audi s3 audi rs4 bmw 335 bmw m3 ford focus st ford focus rs mini cooper s scoobys mitsubishi evo.
Got to be better than the oversize ford capris the burger munchers have although i wouldn’t mind a dodge charger
Make your mind up you’re as bad as a 1970’s British truck buyer.
BMW 3 series,Ford boy racers or Jap crap v Vauxhall VXR8 Bathurst,decent MOPAR and a Caddy CTSV yeah right get on to the dealers bring them to a decent track like Silverstone and see if they’ll all be prepared to lose the cars if they lose the race so I can flog them afterwards and put the money in the bank .
If you were to say M5 I’d believe it although in that case the Bee Em dealer would have a lot more to lose though if the Bathurst did beat the thing.