Well said Dennis 
Trust you and family are all good there 
E.W.
EW car truck & bus:
Well said DennisTrust you and family are all good there
E.W.
Hiya E.W. we are both well thank you and I trust you and yours are similar ! and it looks like “The Leatherhead Sage” is also burning up his key board spouting the usual garbage which following the well established MO absolutely ruins what is often a very interesting thread Ah ! but we mustn’t grumble as we all have our crosses to bear eh ! Now there’s an idea ! Oh no that’s a bit barbaric nailing him up 
Cheers Dennis.
Star down under.:
Another good thread wrecked by Carryfast’s faux authoritive, misconceived expertise. Go back to your own planet Carryfast.Back on topic, which ■■■■■■■ were common/popular there, in the 60s/70s?
We had:
555, usually called triple five or triple trouble.
VT 190, a good engine for regional use.
855/14 litre* in its many guises from NH 220 to N14+ delivering 525hp. The best engine ever built.
KT, an incredibly robust engine of 19 litre displacement and 450hp, pretty much reserved for extreme applications due to being overweight on a single steer axle.
L10, a bit of a dud, quickly superseded by the new, improved M11.
- This engine evolved over many years, the bore and stroke remained the same from the NH 250 to the “black” NTC 444 and N14+, but various changes were made to the block, to strengthen it as outputs increased. The liners tended to chatter once the 400hp threshold was broken.
Agree with you that the NH-series, in whatever form, whenever was a TOP-series, well proven in many circumstances
Now lets try to get the thread back on track !
There was a firm back in the day called George Service Garage at Crick and there was Chap there called Dennis Kulak ? a Canadian IIRC and he ran the ■■■■■■■ engine shop and what he didn’t know about ■■■■■■■ engines you could write on the back of a stamp. He tuned up my V8 and later on did similar to our 180 in a Mk 1 and later on he fettled a 220 and the improvement in performance and mpg was unbelievable. Not only that but he was a very decent chap to talk to about all things ■■■■■■■ ! Cheers Dennis.
ERF-Continental:
Just to open some highlights in case ■■■■■■■ did NOT decide to open a factory (Darlington) in the UK?Please no political discussions on politics, employment and hidden things…just the UK-lorry-market.
Would AEC, Atkinson, Dennison, E.R.F., Foden, Leyland, Scammell, Seddon, and many other makes more
or less benefit from the “other” (UK-based or not) engine-manufacturers?It all depends on the time/era and as an example…DAF had a sort of a marriage with P6 Perkins but at
the ‘end’ it all proceeds with the Leyland-vention…only an example gents.On the continent…after WWII ■■■■■■■ started with the “fruits” of Army-Surplus-chassis in which ■■■■■■■
had a steady and significant role of first supplier…and in the mid fourties “Voortstuwingstechniek” and
Denonville (respectively Holland and Belgium) had their first success both in road- and watertransport as
Clessie ■■■■■■■ intended by 1919…please read “My days with the Diesel” not really cheap nor hard to find.Realise i am a little late here, but ■■■■■■■ were in the UK quite a while before the joint venture at Darlington.
Below extracted from Wikipedia:-
■■■■■■■ UK[edit]
The first manufacturing facility outside of the United States was opened at Shotts in Scotland in 1956, it was known as ■■■■■■■ Engine Company Ltd.[1] ■■■■■■■ occupied “the Wrens Nest” textile factory where diesel engines were manufactured. Taking advantage of the presence of a nearby Euclid earthmover plant, dependent on ■■■■■■■ engines, they began building the NH series diesel engines. Part of this plant still exists today in the form of Linden International.[2] The Scottish ■■■■■■■ factory was largely successful but closed in March 1998, with its operations being consolidated to the ■■■■■■■■ manufacturing facility at Darlington.[3] The Darlington plant, built in partnership with Chrysler International, had first opened in 1964 specifically to build the V6/V8 “Vim-Vine-Vale” engine series. While this engine flopped in the UK, exports (mainly to Mexico’s DINA) kept the plant profitable.[4] The Daventry plant came on line in 1972 to build the K-series and other heavy industrial engines.[1]■■■■■■■ UK originally mostly sold larger, premium diesel engines in the UK - with the first British-built ■■■■■■■ diesel going on to power the Seddon truck carrying Donald Campbell’s Bluebird K7 racing boat.[1] ■■■■■■■ then gradually expanded downwards, with the 10 litre L10 engine in 1982 and the 3.9 to 5.9 litre B-series arriving in 1986.[1] The ■■■■■■■ branding throughout the UK and the world has gone through many changes over the years; going from ■■■■■■■ blue to the current red, white and black branding. All ■■■■■■■ branding decisions are made at a corporate level from the central headquarters in Columbus, Indiana, and then rolled throughout all ■■■■■■■ distributors around the world. In 1986 the business of Self-Changing Gears was purchased.[5]
■■■■■■■ UK is the distributor for UK and Ireland; but it wasn’t always known by this name. ■■■■■■■ Diesel Sales & Service Limited was owned by Blackwood Hodge CDS&S, operating out of Blackwood Hodge, UK. It was acquired by ■■■■■■■ Inc and renamed ■■■■■■■ Diesel in 1984, before having its name changed to ■■■■■■■ UK in 2004. This was the case for many Blackwood Hodge operations throughout the world, for example in Australia.[6]
■■■■■■■ UK currently has eight service centres across the UK and Ireland, with its Irish facility based in Dublin and its central parts warehouse based at its headquarters in Wellingborough at Park Farm Industrial Estate.
Just after 2004 ■■■■■■■ UK changed the way it operated, moving all stock (apart from some fast moving parts) out of its branches and into its headquarters in Wellingborough.
Curious about your perceptions and feedback…
Star down under.:
Carryfast:
Star down under.:
Another good thread wrecked by Carryfast’s faux authoritive, misconceived expertise. Go back to your own planet Carryfast.Back on topic, which ■■■■■■■ were common/popular there, in the 60s/70s?
We had:
555, usually called triple five or triple trouble.
VT 190, a good engine for regional use.
855/14 litre* in its many guises from NH 220 to N14+ delivering 525hp. The best engine ever built.
KT, an incredibly robust engine of 19 litre displacement and 450hp, pretty much reserved for extreme applications due to being overweight on a single steer axle.
L10, a bit of a dud, quickly superseded by the new, improved M11.
- This engine evolved over many years, the bore and stroke remained the same from the NH 250 to the “black” NTC 444 and N14+, but various changes were made to the block, to strengthen it as outputs increased. The liners tended to chatter once the 400hp threshold was broken.
At least I know that the NH 220 was a 743 not 855/14 litre.
The N14, like ■■■■■■■ UK and Fuller transmissions, here all became a victim of the Euro project as in ‘failing’ Euroland type approval.
If my reply to Bewick’s comments were supposedly off topic then so was Bewick and never would have passed pre mod.As do I my venerated (insert sarcastic emoji here) alien, but they’re both of the same family, with the later motors having a larger bore.
The difference between you and Dennis, is that Dennis has walked the walk and earned the respect. His input is relivant rather than the ramblings of a loony tunes.
So you actually meant ‘‘it’s many guises’’ from 743 NH220 to 855/14 litre 250 to N14.
The choice between standardisation on turbo and intercooled big cam ■■■■■■■ v obsolete NA Gardner 8LXB/C and what all too predictably happened next, regarding all concerned, from ■■■■■■■ UK to manufacturers like ERF and customers like Bewick, is historical fact.
Not my personal ramblings.
It’s obvious exactly what Peter Foden meant in calling for more ■■■■■■■ sales v Gardner and why and the results of what would happen to firms like ERF and S/A and ■■■■■■■ UK if it didn’t happen.
Although it might help if Bewick gave a clearer timeline as to exactly when and why the comment was made.
IE ERF calling on customers to buy 250 let alone 220 ■■■■■■■ v 8LXB.Would have been a very different kettle of fish to calling on them to buy the big cam 14 litre turbo ■■■■■■■ v 8LXB/C.
It’s clear that the future of SA and ERF etc and ■■■■■■■ UK would have depended on rightly forcing the issue and choice on customers in the case of the latter.
Instead of which they didn’t combined with the equally predictable effects of tying the country to the ball and chain of the Euro project and the rest is history.
Obviously equally predictably resulting in ‘someone’ ( banks ) having to eventually take the resulting hit, regarding all the predictably wasted investment in both ■■■■■■■ UK and those manufacturers.
FodenS80:
ERF-Continental:
Just to open some highlights in case ■■■■■■■ did NOT decide to open a factory (Darlington) in the UK?Please no political discussions on politics, employment and hidden things…just the UK-lorry-market.
Would AEC, Atkinson, Dennison, E.R.F., Foden, Leyland, Scammell, Seddon, and many other makes more
or less benefit from the “other” (UK-based or not) engine-manufacturers?It all depends on the time/era and as an example…DAF had a sort of a marriage with P6 Perkins but at
the ‘end’ it all proceeds with the Leyland-vention…only an example gents.On the continent…after WWII ■■■■■■■ started with the “fruits” of Army-Surplus-chassis in which ■■■■■■■
had a steady and significant role of first supplier…and in the mid fourties “Voortstuwingstechniek” and
Denonville (respectively Holland and Belgium) had their first success both in road- and watertransport as
Clessie ■■■■■■■ intended by 1919…please read “My days with the Diesel” not really cheap nor hard to find.Realise i am a little late here, but ■■■■■■■ were in the UK quite a while before the joint venture at Darlington.
Below extracted from Wikipedia:-
■■■■■■■ UK[edit]
The first manufacturing facility outside of the United States was opened at Shotts in Scotland in 1956, it was known as ■■■■■■■ Engine Company Ltd.[1] ■■■■■■■ occupied “the Wrens Nest” textile factory where diesel engines were manufactured. Taking advantage of the presence of a nearby Euclid earthmover plant, dependent on ■■■■■■■ engines, they began building the NH series diesel engines. Part of this plant still exists today in the form of Linden International.[2] The Scottish ■■■■■■■ factory was largely successful but closed in March 1998, with its operations being consolidated to the ■■■■■■■■ manufacturing facility at Darlington.[3] The Darlington plant, built in partnership with Chrysler International, had first opened in 1964 specifically to build the V6/V8 “Vim-Vine-Vale” engine series. While this engine flopped in the UK, exports (mainly to Mexico’s DINA) kept the plant profitable.[4] The Daventry plant came on line in 1972 to build the K-series and other heavy industrial engines.[1]■■■■■■■ UK originally mostly sold larger, premium diesel engines in the UK - with the first British-built ■■■■■■■ diesel going on to power the Seddon truck carrying Donald Campbell’s Bluebird K7 racing boat.[1] ■■■■■■■ then gradually expanded downwards, with the 10 litre L10 engine in 1982 and the 3.9 to 5.9 litre B-series arriving in 1986.[1] The ■■■■■■■ branding throughout the UK and the world has gone through many changes over the years; going from ■■■■■■■ blue to the current red, white and black branding. All ■■■■■■■ branding decisions are made at a corporate level from the central headquarters in Columbus, Indiana, and then rolled throughout all ■■■■■■■ distributors around the world. In 1986 the business of Self-Changing Gears was purchased.[5]
■■■■■■■ UK is the distributor for UK and Ireland; but it wasn’t always known by this name. ■■■■■■■ Diesel Sales & Service Limited was owned by Blackwood Hodge CDS&S, operating out of Blackwood Hodge, UK. It was acquired by ■■■■■■■ Inc and renamed ■■■■■■■ Diesel in 1984, before having its name changed to ■■■■■■■ UK in 2004. This was the case for many Blackwood Hodge operations throughout the world, for example in Australia.[6]
■■■■■■■ UK currently has eight service centres across the UK and Ireland, with its Irish facility based in Dublin and its central parts warehouse based at its headquarters in Wellingborough at Park Farm Industrial Estate.
Just after 2004 ■■■■■■■ UK changed the way it operated, moving all stock (apart from some fast moving parts) out of its branches and into its headquarters in Wellingborough.
Curious about your perceptions and feedback…
On the subject of ■■■■■■■ parts they are a complete rip off here in the UK. I can import stuff cheaper than they sell it for over here. As an example, a few years ago I was contacted by Lothian Transport who were desperate for a certain part that neither ■■■■■■■ or Alexander Dennis had in stock. This was around 9.30 in the morning. I told them I’d need to wait until 1pm for my contact in the US to open but would get back to them. They told me that price was no concern, they just needed this part asap. It was available in the US and I organised for it to be airfreighted over. It was delivered to them (by Fedex I think) the following morning at 10.00am. I sent my invoice over to them and they told me that my price (which included the freight costs) was less than they were buying it for in the UK.
ERF-Continental:
Agree with you that the NH-series, in whatever form, whenever was a TOP-series, well proven in many circumstances
Are you suggesting that the ■■■■■■■■ in naturally aspirated form, was superior in any way to the Gardner 8 LXB ?.
Carryfast:
ERF-Continental:
Agree with you that the NH-series, in whatever form, whenever was a TOP-series, well proven in many circumstancesAre you suggesting that the ■■■■■■■■ in naturally aspirated form, was superior in any way to the Gardner 8 LXB ?.
I all fairness, who am I to judge if the LXB/C was inferior…it depends on the whole picture: driver, load, other components,
maintenance and a whole lot of other caracteristics the owners, operators, drivers, mechanics over here can judge better.
More input later but here a start with the content out of a 1979-1980 ■■■■■■■ UK brochure!
Happy reading!
ERF-Continental:
Carryfast:
ERF-Continental:
Agree with you that the NH-series, in whatever form, whenever was a TOP-series, well proven in many circumstancesAre you suggesting that the ■■■■■■■■ in naturally aspirated form, was superior in any way to the Gardner 8 LXB ?.
I all fairness, who am I to judge if the LXB/C was inferior…it depends on the whole picture: driver, load, other components,
maintenance and a whole lot of other caracteristics the owners, operators, drivers, mechanics over here can judge better.
That is the way to answer someone you do not necessarily agree with.
Possibly the question should have been ‘Would ■■■■■■■ have had a harder time selling their engines in the UK if it hadn’t been for Chrysler UK looking for an engine to power the under development Dodge 500 Series’. Only ■■■■■■■ of Indiana had agreed to Chrysler using their V6/V8 engines which Chrysler deemed would suit the requirements of the new model. With the stipulation that the engines would have the Chrysler name on them ( they had tried for almost 18 months to get a European or Japanese maker to agree to this but were sent packing). So started a 50/50 venture with the engines being built in a new Darlington factory with another facility being later built to manufacture the accessory parts such as the PT Pumps, Air Compressors, Injectors etc. Yes ■■■■■■■ had sold engines previously to Seddon Diesel in particular but these hadn’t taken off in the UK with many other makers. The venture with Chrysler must have been an opportunity not to be snubbed for ■■■■■■■ to get a better foothold in the UK, albeit the VIN/VALE engines turned out to be less than successful to put it mildly but ■■■■■■■■ fortunately for them, survived that episode. It undoubtedly though was the bigger straight six engines that gave ■■■■■■■ a better following in the UK market. Franky.
Geordielad…you’re right and it is ONE of all the questions with regard to this thread…
Star down under.:
Another good thread wrecked by Carryfast’s faux authoritive, misconceived expertise. Go back to your own planet Carryfast.Back on topic, which ■■■■■■■ were common/popular there, in the 60s/70s?
We had:
555, usually called triple five or triple trouble.
VT 190, a good engine for regional use.
855/14 litre* in its many guises from NH 220 to N14+ delivering 525hp. The best engine ever built.
KT, an incredibly robust engine of 19 litre displacement and 450hp, pretty much reserved for extreme applications due to being overweight on a single steer axle.
L10, a bit of a dud, quickly superseded by the new, improved M11.
- This engine evolved over many years, the bore and stroke remained the same from the NH 250 to the “black” NTC 444 and N14+, but various changes were made to the block, to strengthen it as outputs increased. The liners tended to chatter once the 400hp threshold was broken.
How could I have forgotten to mention the incredible nine and thrupence?
The V and VT903 were offered with outputs ranging from 290 to 400 hp, but with a little fettling coud be made to rev to 2900 rpm, without compromising reliability. These engines were very popular with express and overnight intercapital operators.
Carryfast, how many ■■■■■■■ or Gardner engines have you owned and operated?
Good question, I can only hope he replies,
ERF-Continental:
Carryfast:
ERF-Continental:
Agree with you that the NH-series, in whatever form, whenever was a TOP-series, well proven in many circumstancesAre you suggesting that the ■■■■■■■■ in naturally aspirated form, was superior in any way to the Gardner 8 LXB ?.
I all fairness, who am I to judge if the LXB/C was inferior…it depends on the whole picture: driver, load, other components,
maintenance and a whole lot of other caracteristics the owners, operators, drivers, mechanics over here can judge better.
The available evidence seems to suggest that the big Gardner was a formidable piece of kit regarding the combination of output and operating costs specifically in terms of naturally aspirated products.
While the 14 litre ■■■■■■■ was equally if not more formidable regarding its design redundancy, allowing massive forced induction boost and resulting increase in outputs.
Ironically ■■■■■■■ UK operations and manufacturers like ERF failed spectacularly in taking advantage of that.
To the point of allowing their foreign competitors to steal that market sector and share.Which UK made, ■■■■■■■ powered products, would/should have been expected to clean up with products like the 320 + big cam well before 1980.
Instead of which we saw them staggering on with products like the obsolete Gardner 8LXC.
Thereby taking out the essential economies of scale required to meet that turbocharged import onslaught with the best weapon at our disposal.
Don’t think that such a deliberate commercially suicidal act can be explained without playing the post war european geopolitical conspiracy card.
Geordielad:
Possibly the question should have been ‘Would ■■■■■■■ have had a harder time selling their engines in the UK if it hadn’t been for Chrysler UK looking for an engine to power the under development Dodge 500 Series’. Only ■■■■■■■ of Indiana had agreed to Chrysler using their V6/V8 engines which Chrysler deemed would suit the requirements of the new model. With the stipulation that the engines would have the Chrysler name on them ( they had tried for almost 18 months to get a European or Japanese maker to agree to this but were sent packing). So started a 50/50 venture with the engines being built in a new Darlington factory with another facility being later built to manufacture the accessory parts such as the PT Pumps, Air Compressors, Injectors etc. Yes ■■■■■■■ had sold engines previously to Seddon Diesel in particular but these hadn’t taken off in the UK with many other makers. The venture with Chrysler must have been an opportunity not to be snubbed for ■■■■■■■ to get a better foothold in the UK, albeit the VIN/VALE engines turned out to be less than successful to put it mildly but ■■■■■■■■ fortunately for them, survived that episode. It undoubtedly though was the bigger straight six engines that gave ■■■■■■■ a better following in the UK market. Franky.
Interesting history there! Was that the same engines used in the larger D series? When did ■■■■■■■ first get to be an option in the likes of Foden, ERF or Atkinson?
Till now, I am happy with your feedback and there is more behind the presence/existence of ■■■■■■■ in the UK since 1956…
when you would exclude this supplier…I strongly doubt if the British industry when it comes to commercial vehicles would
have expanded on the home- and export-market…with positive meaning from my side