windrush:
My Late Father never agreed with the wearing of Poppies reasoning that he was trying to forget the War and those who ‘spouted off’ about it all the time must have had a far better war than he did otherwise they wouldn’t want to be reminded of it every year. He wouldn’t join the British Legion for the same reason, but he did attend either an Alamein or Tobruk Reunion once but never again for much the same reason. I wear a Poppy though, but then I never went through what he did so obviously can’t understand.
Pete.
In general that was my experience of most of those who I knew who’d been in the two world wars.
Ironically I think we’re seeing the difference between a now mostly gone conscript army who didn’t want to be there but went because they had to v decades of a professional army who see glory in it all.
No surprise this is never played in all the remembrance proceedings.
Not sure where you get the idea today’s volunteer army see’s glory in any conflict since 1945, it was the last thing on anyone’s mind in Korea, Malaya, Borneo, Northern Ireland, Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan or many of the so called brush fire wars since 45. We went cos we were sent. Personally I don’t give a monkey’s if people prefer not to wear a poppy its a free choice which they don’t need to give a reason for. We should stop trying to change the free will of people many of the pasts conflicts were because of this. Frank.
windrush:
My Late Father never agreed with the wearing of Poppies reasoning that he was trying to forget the War and those who ‘spouted off’ about it all the time must have had a far better war than he did otherwise they wouldn’t want to be reminded of it every year. He wouldn’t join the British Legion for the same reason, but he did attend either an Alamein or Tobruk Reunion once but never again for much the same reason. I wear a Poppy though, but then I never went through what he did so obviously can’t understand.
Pete, my late dad like yours never wore a poppy or attended any remembrance gathering,he often spoke of his good memories of his war service, but he had some very dark moments during the war, these troubled him all his life. He served in the Royal Artillery with the 7th Armoured Division. He fought at El Alemain, Sicily, Salerno, Monte Cassino then back to the UK to take part in the Normandy Landings. He was wounded at Caen but still fought through France and Germany to the end of the war. I am extremely proud of him, this year is very poignant as he would have been 100yrs old in August.
I always wear a poppy on remembrance day as it reminds me so much of what he must have endured. Regards Kev.
The joint headmaster at my school, near Ambleside was Gerald Butler, a wonderful man. Known to us as Major B. He had been in tanks in the First World War. He actually didn’t talk about it, but we did find out odd things. He once drank petrol, thinking it was water - ‘everything smelt of petrol, I had taken a few mouthfuls before I realised! I didn’t dare have a cigarette for a week!’
Another quote was ’ the driver couldn’t actually see forward and relied on shouts from the observer above. We found a way of directing him. ‘We clipped pegs on his ears and attached strings, pulling right or left’.
I can’t remember, but I assume Major B was pulling the strings.
This photo was in the Daily Mail, and shows a 20 year old Major B. He is number 6. In the caption it says that they all survived. I attach the link, where one or two have said ‘no wonder they survived, they were behind the lines.’ They were tank commanders and were aboard those tanks, not ‘Melchetts’. dailymail.co.uk/news/article … -home.html
One of those described it as ‘Hell, with a lid on.’
The crews of those First War tanks endured extremely difficult conditions, constant fumes from the engines inside and the resulting heat they produced, unbearable noise not only from the engines and running gear but the guns on each side when firing and enemy fire. Although its said these machines changed the tide of war when first used during the Somme offensive the shear size, weight and at times poor ability to manoeuvre around the battlefield meant the Infantry often out paced them so they didn’t end the war as quickly as many hoped, they did strike fear into the German troops however enabling the Infantry to mop up positions with less resistance in some cases. The crews certainly earned their medals with these early machines just as they did during WWII.
Frankydobo:
Not sure where you get the idea today’s volunteer army see’s glory in any conflict since 1945, it was the last thing on anyone’s mind in Korea, Malaya, Borneo, Northern Ireland, Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan or many of the so called brush fire wars since 45. We went cos we were sent. Personally I don’t give a monkey’s if people prefer not to wear a poppy its a free choice which they don’t need to give a reason for. We should stop trying to change the free will of people many of the pasts conflicts were because of this. Frank.
The definition of ‘glory’ just means the difference in motivation for getting involved.IE reluctant conscript v career soldier.In which case there’s probably no way that the two can be the same thing.
While Korea,like many of the post war WW2 conflicts,was also a conscript war not a volunteer army one.While what we’ve historically seen at the remembrance parades is arguably a minority of those involved who,like the later professional army based conflicts,had that different type of motivation.IE for the majority,as described by windrush and who I knew,it was all about having survived,luckily on the winning side and returning to their civilian lives and just wanting to forget about every thing and every aspect of the horrors and military discipline,of the wars they’d had to take part in by necessity.Which in my father’s case mean’t enthusiastically taking his demob when his number came up unexpectedly instead of getting sent,like many others he served with,from Italy to Palestine at the end of WW2.Then counting his luck when being in a reserved occupation saved him from being called up again for Korea and,as described by windrush,never having much enthusiasm for the poppy wearing thing.On that note,at least this household,while being happy to contribute to the poppy collections by buying a poppy it’s usually then just left on the shelf at home and not given a second thought in keeping with his previous feelings.
Frankydobo:
Not sure where you get the idea today’s volunteer army see’s glory in any conflict since 1945, it was the last thing on anyone’s mind in Korea, Malaya, Borneo, Northern Ireland, Falklands, Iraq, Afghanistan or many of the so called brush fire wars since 45. We went cos we were sent. Personally I don’t give a monkey’s if people prefer not to wear a poppy its a free choice which they don’t need to give a reason for. We should stop trying to change the free will of people many of the pasts conflicts were because of this. Frank.
The definition of ‘glory’ just means the difference in motivation for getting involved.IE reluctant conscript v career soldier.In which case there’s probably no way that the two can be the same thing.
While Korea,like many of the post war WW2 conflicts,was also a conscript war not a volunteer army one.While what we’ve historically seen at the remembrance parades is arguably a minority of those involved who,like the later professional army based conflicts,had that different type of motivation.IE for the majority,as described by windrush and who I knew,it was all about having survived,luckily on the winning side and returning to their civilian lives and just wanting to forget about every thing and every aspect of the horrors and military discipline,of the wars they’d had to take part in by necessity.Which in my father’s case mean’t enthusiastically taking his demob when his number came up unexpectedly instead of getting sent,like many others he served with,from Italy to Palestine at the end of WW2.Then counting his luck when being in a reserved occupation saved him from being called up again for Korea and,as described by windrush,never having much enthusiasm for the poppy wearing thing.On that note,at least this household,while being happy to contribute to the poppy collections by buying a poppy it’s usually then just left on the shelf at home and not given a second thought in keeping with his previous feelings.
Your father did a marvellous thing that us younger ones haven,t been asked to do thank God.Without him n the likes of him where would we be now ■■?
He left us a life our forefathers would,nt have dreamed of. Nothing your family do on remembrance day is wrong. BE PROUD he n his likes made us
Actually my father wasn’t conscripted, he joined the Royal Engineers in 1939 to get away from a miserable home life and served at Dunkirk (left on the beach) North Africa, Italy (Cassino of course) and crossing the Rhine. Demobbed in 1946 he re-enlisted, without his family or mum knowing, as he couldn’t get a regular job and was engaged to my mother by then so the Army was the only way of getting a steady wage! Married in December 1947, sent to Libya in 1948 where mum joined him in early 1950 (they hadn’t seen each other from '48 to '50) and I was born in December 1950!!
Korea then kicked off, he was given the option of going to Korea (and mum and me would be sent to Australia to live), or coming back to the UK and taking a training role. He chose the latter (being now a family man) and we travelled from Benghazi to Southampton on the Empire Windrush, hence my forum name. Mums biggest regret was not going to Oz but she didn’t think that dad would survive Korea and talked him out of going , she still mentions at the age of 90 how good our life could have been if only she and dad had taken the risk. One thing he did tell me “You will also have a war to fight sometime in your lifetime as previous generations have” but it didn’t happen thank goodness.
windrush:
Actually my father wasn’t conscripted, he joined the Royal Engineers in 1939 to get away from a miserable home life and served at Dunkirk (left on the beach) North Africa, Italy (Cassino of course) and crossing the Rhine. Demobbed in 1946 he re-enlisted, without his family or mum knowing, as he couldn’t get a regular job and was engaged to my mother by then so the Army was the only way of getting a steady wage! Married in December 1947, sent to Libya in 1948 where mum joined him in early 1950 (they hadn’t seen each other from '48 to '50) and I was born in December 1950!!
Korea then kicked off, he was given the option of going to Korea (and mum and me would be sent to Australia to live), or coming back to the UK and taking a training role. He chose the latter (being now a family man) and we travelled from Benghazi to Southampton on the Empire Windrush, hence my forum name. Mums biggest regret was not going to Oz but she didn’t think that dad would survive Korea and talked him out of going , she still mentions at the age of 90 how good our life could have been if only she and dad had taken the risk. One thing he did tell me “You will also have a war to fight sometime in your lifetime as previous generations have” but it didn’t happen thank goodness.
Pete.
I reckon “CF” could start another war Pete, although not to-night as it’s that bloody great full moon so Matron is keeping him “banged up” as apparently a full moon has a funny effect on certain individuals
Bewick:
I reckon “CF” could start another war Pete, although not to-night as it’s that bloody great full moon so Matron is keeping him “banged up” as apparently a full moon has a funny effect on certain individuals
To be fair we were actually in agreement about our experiences of the poppy wearing thing among many of that generation but just obviously from a different angle.
I know next to nothing about my father’s wartime service other than that he was in the Reconnaisance Corps and landed in Normandy on D+7. He was one of those who was not immediately demobbed, but ended up in Indonesia, where from the various papers he left behind, it seems that despite having no legal training he seems to have spent some considerable time defending Allied and Japanese prisoners in Courts Martial proceedings. He never spoke about anything other than the humourous things which had happened to him, although I did get the feeling that he was intending to open up a bit on the visit to Normandy he was planning for us to make on his impending retirement. He died six months short of the date.
I think the observations about later conflicts and the personnel involved merit some comment. Having worked with a Korean War veteran and having also read some of the accounts published, the soldiers were certainly not glory-hunting. Many were WW2 reservists who had been recalled, in cases somewhat unenthusiastically, while others were either regulars or National Servicemen. Len and the books make it clear that the fighting was at considerably closer quarters sometimes in Korea than it had been in WW2, which came as a nasty shock to a few of those veterans.
On a similar note I recall some 30+ years ago being staggered to hear about an old school mate; a rather timid, 5’ 6" brilliant and introverted bookworm, fascinated by antiques and chemistry, who one would have predicted to become some sort of professor: “Captain B has been decorated for bravery in Northern Ireland”.
To me the Poppy represents those like my grandfather who died in action, but those too who have simply gone since, such as my mate and colleague Doug who left his closing Yorkshire mine for REME and subsequently left half his guts in the Falklands, suffering daily as a result and invalided out of the Army, he moved south to work as a fitter, but eventually was found one day to have had a heart attack and died underneath the lorry he was working on.
Hi Windrush, as a point of interest, when your father was in as it was called then Cyrenaica and now Libya, was he stationed in Lumsden barracks in Benghazi. 17 field left there in Nov 51. Incidentally it was originally a Turkish prison camp. Regards.
cartageman:
Hi Windrush, as a point of interest, when your father was in as it was called then Cyrenaica and now Libya, was he stationed in Lumsden barracks in Benghazi. 17 field left there in Nov 51. Incidentally it was originally a Turkish prison camp. Regards.
I haven’t a clue I’m afraid Cartageman, I can ask mum next weekend when I get back home (we are on holiday at present) and she may well remember. I do have his army book somewhere but that is at home. I am seeing my brother later tomorrow, he may know as he is keen on military history. I was born in the British Military Hospital there and I would imagine that there were not that many barracks in Benghazi?
He wouldn’t join the British Legion for the same reason, but he did attend either an Alamein or Tobruk Reunion once but never again for much the same reason. I wear a Poppy though, but then I never went through what he did so obviously can’t understand.
