Hi Carl,
I have just read your post on the ex Coulson’s TK and when I saw the reg. I realised that it must have been bought from Sherwoods not long after we bought our first TK reg .5437 HN . I don’t know if yours was any better but for the first year of its life it spent more time in Sherwoods having modifications than it did delivering the goods. It was powered by the Bedford 300 diesel which struggled with the 18 ft box body we used so God only knows how the ex Coulson vehicle coped with a pantech. the size your dad used.
I see you mention Peter Butler the signwriter , Peter was a truly gifted man whose skills are lost today in the world of graphics. I not only admired his great skill but also enjoyed the banter when he did a job for us.One funny incident which springs to mind was when he was signwriting a small dropsider at the premises of Ferrydec down Ferryhill Station . The truck was for Manghan and Shaw however Peter must have copied his script wrongly, for on the tail and side boards it read Managhan and Shaw. As the job was nearly finished you can imagine just how Peter felt when I questioned the spelling and quickly departed the scene.
I hope this finds you in good health
regards Barrie
Barrie Hindmarch:
Hi Carl,
I have just read your post on the ex Coulson’s TK and when I saw the reg. I realised that it must have been bought from Sherwoods not long after we bought our first TK reg .5437 HN . I don’t know if yours was any better but for the first year of its life it spent more time in Sherwoods having modifications than it did delivering the goods. It was powered by the Bedford 300 diesel which struggled with the 18 ft box body we used so God only knows how the ex Coulson vehicle coped with a pantech. the size your dad used.
I see you mention Peter Butler the signwriter , Peter was a truly gifted man whose skills are lost today in the world of graphics. I not only admired his great skill but also enjoyed the banter when he did a job for us.One funny incident which springs to mind was when he was signwriting a small dropsider at the premises of Ferrydec down Ferryhill Station . The truck was for Manghan and Shaw however Peter must have copied his script wrongly, for on the tail and side boards it read Managhan and Shaw. As the job was nearly finished you can imagine just how Peter felt when I questioned the spelling and quickly departed the scene.
I hope this finds you in good health
regards Barrie
Hi Barrie,
I thought you would have remembered that TK we had, although it didn’t survive long. It had the 4 cylinder engine in and continually was breaking down. On one occasion dad parked it at the top of the bank opposite number 12 Marmaduke Street and forgot to put the handbrake on and it stayed put about a minute or two and then rolled down the bank demolishing someone’s fence and nearly went into their gable end.
After about a year and a half, we sold it to Fred Johnson at Durham, who apparently had continual problems, and then when we bought out his business we got it back, and repainted it, but the problems continued and we put a new TK FPT780G under the body.
You mentioned your first diesel being a 300 cu in engine and it was a problem, and yet our first Bedford diesel 4479PT was a 300 and covered 300,000 mile on first engine, when George Hardy forgot to tighten up the sump plug and it seized. We put in a new 300 short motor and when we sold it, it had done 320,000 mile making 620,000 in total, but the back main bearing was leaking by that time. Dad was always worried about the 300 perhaps by your experience and John West had had problems with one bus that Jewitt’s ran, but it was wonderful on our use.
The next had the 330 engine in, but had an inline pump and we always had more problems with the rotary pumps that they later fitted. I think they fitted the rotary pumps as they were cheaper.
Peter encouraged by our ignorance made a spelling mistake on one of the ■■■■■■ vans our fitters ran around in. Fleet Maintainance Division instead of Fleet Maintenance Division. It ran for about three months before someone told me of our mistake, and it did so until it was scrapped, as we never painted it again. but like you say, it was a pleasure for Peter to come and cheer you up with his gossip. He certainly had a talent and character that few have today.
So pleased to hear from you again.
Best wishes
Carl
Hi Carl ,
on the subject of underpowered vehicles I seem to remember doing a favour for your dad (no doubt in return for the many he did me) when he was stuck for a driver and asked if I had someone to do a local run .I had no drivers in at the time so I did the job myself using the blue Bedford which I believe was PT reg. and painted in Steel Style livery.The load wasn’t heavy but the van seemed very laboured even on the flat and when on the return journey we had to scale the Heights of Park Head I felt that there was a problem but was assured by the porter that your dad sent with me that it was always like that.However the highlight of my day was to come when on returning to Marmaduke Street I parked outside of number 10 and unknowingly started World War 3 . When I see the street today with its extra houses and cars I think getting up and down as we did would now be impossible .
Barrie Hindmarch:
Hi Carl ,
on the subject of underpowered vehicles I seem to remember doing a favour for your dad (no doubt in return for the many he did me) when he was stuck for a driver and asked if I had someone to do a local run .I had no drivers in at the time so I did the job myself using the blue Bedford which I believe was PT reg. and painted in Steel Style livery.The load wasn’t heavy but the van seemed very laboured even on the flat and when on the return journey we had to scale the Heights of Park Head I felt that there was a problem but was assured by the porter that your dad sent with me that it was always like that.However the highlight of my day was to come when on returning to Marmaduke Street I parked outside of number 10 and unknowingly started World War 3 . When I see the street today with its extra houses and cars I think getting up and down as we did would now be impossible .
Hi Barrie,
Mary Waggott was who lived in number 10, I seem to remember and she was the only complaint we ever had, and by god she tried to make our lives hell. But, no doubt, like you we always thought that we were there first and they knew what they were coming into if they bought a house in Marmaduke Street. However, to be fair we, again as no doubt you did, kept the noise to a minimum and tried to cause no trouble.
When I slept at my grandparents in number 14, which I did from time to time, I always found it dead quiet on a night, and I always was told, by my grandmother that if I listened I would hear Howe’s last bus come up the street about 11.30 at night.
Then, one day when I was about 19 I accidently ran over Mary Maggot’s dog. It was a small dog like a Scottie. It made me very upset and I went round and apologised to her, and dad sent a couple of drivers round to bury it for her, and from that day she seemed ok and stopped causing trouble, but now when I think back the ordinary residents had a lot to put up with, with all the traffic up and down the street.
The blue ‘Steel style’ van was 4479PT, the 300 cu in engine I mentioned. It was originally cream and brown with writing by Temp Newton, when new and then at about 3 years old repainted blue and again sign written by Temp.
I must admit I don’t think I ever drove it as it was about 7 years old when I was 21, but in the thirteen years we operated it, you are the first that described it as sluggish, but perhaps our lot were used to all of them being similar, whereas you were comparing against your smaller box vans that would seem keener because of less wind resistance. However it’s last three years or so before we replaced it, it was driven by Bryan Sheldon, and he certainly would flog the wick out of it. But like most those times if you wound it up on a good bit of road you could get a fair speed out of it.
When I was about five years old onwards I liked to get in the cabs when they were parked up on a night, and pretend I was driving. Thinking back now all steering wheels were either wooden design coated in thick plastic or plastic however our 1948 Bedford OB JUP had a steel steering wheel, which was freezing to hold in cold weather.
I remember asking dad about this and he said it was so cold on a freezing morning that your hands could hardly hold it.
I remember that our 1937 and 1938 Bedfords we restored and run on vintage rallies did not have steel steering wheels and weren’t prohibitably cold.
I wonder why Bedford fitted such a steering wheel on this model and has anyone had similar problems with any other old vehicles?
Hi Carl ,
Re. your poser on steering wheels I can honestly say that I have never come across a Bedford with a steel steering wheel. For what it’s worth the oldest Bedford that I drove was a 1936 petrol engined 3 tonner , indeed as you say you did I spent many hours pretending that I was driving it , however to the best of my knowledge it had a plastic coated steering wheel. I learned to drive on one of the OWL models that we had but that definitely had a plastic coated wheel which as it and its partner were bought in 1946 and due to austerity would certainly have had a steel wheel if that was the trend for that time.
Barrie Hindmarch:
Hi Carl ,
Re. your poser on steering wheels I can honestly say that I have never come across a Bedford with a steel steering wheel. For what it’s worth the oldest Bedford that I drove was a 1936 petrol engined 3 tonner , indeed as you say you did I spent many hours pretending that I was driving it , however to the best of my knowledge it had a plastic coated steering wheel. I learned to drive on one of the OWL models that we had but that definitely had a plastic coated wheel which as it and its partner were bought in 1946 and due to austerity would certainly have had a steel wheel if that was the trend for that time.
Hi Barrie,
It might have been because it was an OB passenger chassis, which although dad weirdly had Sherwood & Wynn fit a standard cab, was supplied by Sherwoods as a chassis scuttle. I remember in Marmaduke street stored on the girders below the roof we had large chrome overrides that were to be bolted onto the front of the front bumper (Although they never were) and also the front wheels had detachable chrome hub caps. (Our first SBs had chrome hub caps until Bedford cut costs and stopped them as standard fitment).
In any event I feel sorry for the driver that turned up at 6-00AM in the morning (As they did in those days) and started the day putting water in the radiator as it would have been drained the previous night (No antifreeze used those days) getting in the non-heated cab and then nearly getting frost bite in their fingers from the steering wheel.
I remember your old Bedfords (Black with orange strip weren’t they?) Bet you wished you had kept one, Barrie as it would have been very rare today and worth a lot. What a change when your new J type came with its modern two tone blue livery. Was it a Petrol? Looked very nice especially when joined by the Tks in the same livery
Carl
Hi Carl,
The J series 1693 HN was our first diesel powered vehicle it had the 300 cu.in. engine. I drove it from new , indeed I collected it from M T Services Darlington .It was replaced with a TK reg. BED 330K which as the reg. implies was powered by the 330cu.in. engine.This vehicle was built by Marsdens at Warrington the chassis being supplied by a Warrington Bedford dealer whose name I believe to be Garlick Burrell and Edwards. The two Blues livery was my dads choice and was retained until I changed to the Midnight Blue when we moved to Chilton.
Someone, kindly just sent me this photo.
It is ENK306 our 1938 Bedford 35 cwt. arriving at Brighton at the end of the Historic Commercial Vehicle Rally’s London to Brighton run. I took part in this three times, twice with EUG702 1937 2 tonner and once with this van. On the first time I entered with EUG I won a cup, presented by the Duke of Kent, for the vehicle that travelled the longest distance under its own steam.
Both the Bedfords were very similar to drive and could cruise along the dual carriageways at 55 mph. However I must admit they were empty and I never drove either with any load on them. The brakes were very efficient however driving similar vehicles when new, dad said they would never stop with a load one and the brakes were continually being repaired. However to be fair Bedford advertised vehicles like this to be capable of a 50% overload capacity, and I understand that during the war years they were usually loaded with much heavier than even that.
The only noticeable thing was the vibrations as in a modern vehicle you never imagine how bumpy our roads are. I am not sure the year of this photo but imagine somewhere around 1982-1984.
Photos of these vans never excite me as much as genuine photos of our vehicles working. That seems to be reflected in the viewing figures I get of the general public viewing of photos, but in their way they did ear their corn, advertising our business and brand building.
Barrie Hindmarch:
Hi Carl,
The J series 1693 HN was our first diesel powered vehicle it had the 300 cu.in. engine. I drove it from new , indeed I collected it from M T Services Darlington .It was replaced with a TK reg. BED 330K which as the reg. implies was powered by the 330cu.in. engine.This vehicle was built by Marsdens at Warrington the chassis being supplied by a Warrington Bedford dealer whose name I believe to be Garlick Burrell and Edwards. The two Blues livery was my dads choice and was retained until I changed to the Midnight Blue when we moved to Chilton.
Hi Barrie,
You are right it would have been Garlick Burrell and Edwards; however their nearest Bedford agency was St Helens Lancs.
Marsden’s was a very sad story, going back to the age of death duty. Ken Marsden told the story to dad. Apparently old Mr Marsden died and left everything to his wife. Death duties had to be paid on his estate as in those days they were not exempt between spouses. Within a year or so Mrs Marsden died and left everything to her two sons and again death duties had to be paid again. As in most family businesses the majority of the money was ■■■■■■■ in business assets and unfortunately they couldn’t find the funds to pay and had no alternative but to sell the business, which was very upsetting to Ken in particular as he was the elder, and like you had left school very young and dedicated his life to building the business.
So they sold to the Baird Group which also owned Garlick Burrell and Edwards.
Probably you did not have sadness on the day you sold 1693HN and replaced it with a nice new TK, but thinking back now having driven it nearly every mile it did, it must fill you with nostalgia.
I had bought our two old Bedfords out of my own money and although the business paid for repairs, painting etc., it was fair as the business gained by the promotion and advertising which more than covered those costs. In a time of madness I capitalised the two vehicles adding that t my director’s loan account, to improve the balance sheet. At the time when we went into liquidation I was pleased to see the back of them, but how today, looking back, I wish I had kept the ownership of the in my name and had them today. I suppose we all do many foolish things in our lives that looking back retrospectively we regret but I am sure I did more of my fair share.
Carl
I suppose running a business when you are young has its good points as you are up to date in your thoughts and ideas but like all things, although at the time you don’t realise it, you have still so much to learn.
Getting good advice is very difficult, and the knowledge you really need to make the correct decisions in areas that are outside of your comfort zones comes with age and experience. During my life I have learnt so much, that like everyone, I suppose, if I had known then what I know now I would have done so many things differently.
Dad and I talked everything over, so I suppose we benefited from a bit more of a mixed view, but in fact in thing like, taxation, company law and business finance, we were each as much as a novice as each other.
I learnt from an early age from my grandfather, not to trust banks, and I can safely say that looking back now, coupled with the mess of the banking crisis, how true those words are. In the majority of cases Accountants are too narrow minded, and although they can give advice as they see it, and in many cases haven’t even the ability to offer any genuine advice at all, would at best stifle the development of a healthy company. Spending eleven years as a magistrate taught me of the inadequacies of the legal profession, and if you are fortunate to have the benefit of advice from a good solicitor, as I do believe we had from Joe Hall, Spennymoor solicitor from Meikle Skeen and Hall, originally, until he split to form J. P. Hall and Co. they are only as good as the areas in which they specialise but at least it is usually best to deal principally with one who knows and understands you.
Finally, now I come onto the subject of Financial Advisors. This is a subject I know first-hand as I, later in life qualified as such and practiced for just over a year. I laugh at the statement, ‘I have a good Financial Advisor’. In life we all have a self-preservation instinct to look after ourselves first, and no matter what anyone says they all seek the highest commission for themselves. Parcelling it up, however they can everything they do is to make money for themselves, and if, by luck it helps you, that’s all it is.
The reasons for my meandering thoughts were to explain a little bit of our business history.
In the last post I told the story of how Ken Marsden of Marsden Coachbuilders told dad about their death duty problems, and it set him about thinking, especially as shortly after, in his early forties e had a heart attack.
We had used the same accountants since 1922, and foolishly dad was trading as a sole trader. This meant that any profit he made was set against his personal tax and he was paying tax at the rate of 19/6 in the pound. Telling me I must learn about tax, so that I can help reduce the tax burden, and thinking about his bad heart and possible death, he was advised by the accountant, who although was a nice chap had very little common sense knowledge, to form a partnership, with me, my mother and father having a third each. Suggesting that Joe Hall, our solicitor could handle that dad arranged a partnership to be formed.
Knowing what I know now I could have formed the partnership at no cost, but Joe did everything according to the book, making a banquet out of his work and costing us over £2,000 (A lot of money in 1965) The A licence and all legal documents had to be changed into the partnership name and so we started trading as a partnership. It did have the benefit of splitting the profit 3 ways and did cut some tax but as I will explain shortly it was a very mistaken decision, based on the fact that the accountant we had, had no knowledge of limited companies, and wanted to retain our work and so gave us very wrong advice.
We had joined Road haulage Association in the twenties and stayed as a member right until the end, and talking to my Grandfather, father and my direct knowledge, apart from the benefits the legal aid scheme offered it was a total waste of time. I can never ever recall the mention of one benefit of membership.
However the legal aid system was much better, thanks to the fact that they had retained the services of Campbell-Wardlaw. He was without the best Transport Law specialist in his day and it was said Hanlon, the Authority in Northern Traffic Area often consulted Wardlaw for advice.
We had problems that needed a transport solicitor in about 4 cases. Two of these Wardlaw dealt with and on one occasion where there was a possibility of our Operators Licence being curtailed as the case proceeded to court Campbell-Wardlaw actually succeeded in obtaining the grant of an extra ten vehicles. One of our cases which tanks to him we won was probably his last case as he conducted the instructions for our defence from his hospital bed and told his assistant solicitor word for word how to deal in court, and died about a week after our successful court appearance.
However when dad first met him when we had a relatively small problem and by then we were trading as a partnership. During their conversation over lunch on the day of the court appearance Campbell-Wardlaw told him that although he did not deal in financial matters, he understood that there was most likely financial benefits in trading as a limited company. However he went on to say that trading as a partnership was very dangerous in so much if you add up the total number of wheels we had on the road at any one time it was virtually impossible that at some time we might not have one that was defective tyre. In the days of endorsement on driving licences, before points if we had the misfortune of being convicted of three tyres all three of us, my father, mother and myself could find ourselves without a driving licence, and that was just one of thousands of such risks, whereas we would not be taking such risks if we were a limited company.
Meanwhile Joe Hall, our solicitor and Dunn our accountant had been working out how much the potential death duties would be if dad had the misfortune of dyeing. In those days when A licences had values which was considered as good will the amount was frightening and almost certainly would have destroyed our business. And furthermore because dad had given my mother and me a third each of the business to form the partnership we would have to pay the full amount if dad died within seven years of the partnership being formed.
Step forward Joe Hall’s Financial Advisor friend, who recommended dad, took out a life policy that covered that amount for seven years. A life policy that he paid into for seven years and then expired, just like car insurance where you paid your premium just for that specific loss and if you lived you lost and if you died you also lost as the premium was not much less than the pay-out. Obviously as anyone could understand dad had just had a major heart attack and the risk factor was enormous in insurance terms.
When I was about ten I had my first set to with Insurance Salesmen (Financial Advisors). My grandmother was a firm believer in taking out Endowment policies, which in the fifties and 60s could be very good. She had taken one out for dad when he was fourteen or so and twenty years later it had matured. The company she had used (I forget which) had been a respectable one where like today the premium was paid by direct debit, and not one like there was in those days where the salesmen came round and collected the premium in cash. Never the less when the pay-out was due, the company, not wishing to miss a trick sent a Financial Advisor out to hand over the cheque in person with the purpose of persuading dad to take out another policy. I, as always was there listening to what was being said and quickly calculated the payment cost over the next 15 years and subtracted the benefit to find out my dad was being offered an endowment policy that was costing much more than it paid out in fifteen years’ time. I told them and the Financial advisor said that cannot be right ad sat for about an hour calculating what I had done whilst they were talking and finally had to admit I was right.
Going forward again to 1965 when Joe Hall, his solicitor, Dunn, his accountant and this Financial Advisor were trying to persuade dad to take out a life policy to cover possible death duties over the next seven years, we talked it over realising the premium would cost us buying one new vehicle each of those 7 years, and had we decided to follow the advice we would have been seven Bedford Marsdens down. Dad declined but that did not stop them pestering him for several months and this in turn worry could itself have caused a heart attack. It was many years later I discovered how much the solicitor and accountant would have received in introduction fees and the Financial Advisor in commission out of that Insurance Premium. In the event dad lived till he was 86 years old.
Hi Carl.
I read with interest your comments about the benefits or not about RHA membership and can only say that in my time involved with Oughton Carriers I found our membership totally beneficial especially in the field of licence extension or indeed objection. I remember after successfully applying for an extension of our A Licence saying to my late wife that if I was ever on trial for murder to employ Campbell Wardlaw as my defence .My personal recollection of our involvement go back to when Denis le Conte was the Secretary and I always found him to be very efficient,so much so that at one application for an increase in vehicles when the hearing was held at Zetland House Middlesbrough we won even though the meeting venue was part of British Rail and the traffic we were taking was from no other than British Rail. regards Barrie.
I think Campbell Wardlaw lived in an apartment in Bamburgh castle. Just a useless bit of info
Hi Barrie and Tyneside,
As you say Campbell Wardlaw was the last of a breed, a cross between Perry Mason and Rumpole of the Bailey. I can well imagine him living in Bamburgh Castle.
Dennis Le Conte, that reminds me. I had nothing against the office working of the RHA. My problem was in the old days wages were fixed by the Road Haulage Wages Council and everyone had by law to pay those rates. It cut out all arguments, but when this was abolished the Unions would only negotiate with the Road Haulage Association, and the members appointed onto this committee had little or no experience at employing a large number of workers and had little if non negotiating skills, or training. It was like Mick McManus going on University challenge
When the Lorry Drivers strike happened we had negotiated a wage settlement with our staff and the TGWU had agreed, but went against it when the strike was called. Like in legal cases they hired Campbell Wardlaw and I certainly would have been shocked had an owner driver turned up to represent us in court, and so I certainly didn’t like a committee of hauliers consisting of one or two owner drivers and all and sundries negotiating wages with the unions,
My argument was the RHA should have been much more professional and employed a professional to represent its members on employee relations. To include wage negotiations, unfair dismissal etc.
They often say the best game keepers were the former poachers and with a small levy on membership they could have recruited from trained union leaders.
Carl
Hi Carl
My Father was a Tyneside sub area RHA committee member around the period of the drivers strike and often chaired RHA meetings, which often became very heated. Dennis le Conte attended most of these meetings and got a lot of stick ( unfairly I often thought ) from certain hauliers about the RHA handling of the situation.
Dennis had been at the RHA as long as I can remember and there was also a lady working in the office in Newcastle who I only knew as “Mac” never knew her real name but she was highly thought of amongst the members I knew.
Due to the city centre redevelopments the RHA office moved to a site along the coast road just past the Wills factory.
IIRC that office was closed due to reorganisation and all admin was then done from Leeds.
I think at that point Dennis was working from home. We needed some advice on an O licence variation and on his invitation I went to his house at Whitley Bay for some assistance with the paperwork.
When we were members of the RHA & needed them they didnt want to know
In fact I managed to silence Roger King then chairman at the time he walked out of a meeting I was at as some of the transport press were asking what he thought were awkward questions this was about 2004
animal:
When we were members of the RHA & needed them they didnt want to knowIn fact I managed to silence Roger King then chairman at the time he walked out of a meeting I was at as some of the transport press were asking what he thought were awkward questions this was about 2004
Hi Angie and Tyneside
I have no doubt that Dennis Le Conte was conscientious, but our problems were perhaps more that our work was more specialised than general haulage ad it was just the legal aid situation that was any benefit to us, apart from the wage negotiations, which was very badly dealt with.
I can imagine your feelings, Angie, as it was always my opinion that at an RHA meeting other members were nice to your face, but the majority would gladly cut your throat behind your back, using rate cutting as their primary weapon. Then attend the next meeting and complain of cheap rates and try to persuade others to increase their rates so they could get more work by cutting the new rates.
Hope you are both keeping well
Carl
We needed there legal aid but they didnt want to know even though we were fully paid up members even for the EU they quite happy took the money but were of no help when we could have done with there advice & legal expertise
tyneside:
Hi Carl
My Father was a Tyneside sub area RHA committee member around the period of the drivers strike and often chaired RHA meetings, which often became very heated. Dennis le Conte attended most of these meetings and got a lot of stick ( unfairly I often thought ) from certain hauliers about the RHA handling of the situation.
Dennis had been at the RHA as long as I can remember and there was also a lady working in the office in Newcastle who I only knew as “Mac” never knew her real name but she was highly thought of amongst the members I knew.
Due to the city centre redevelopments the RHA office moved to a site along the coast road just past the Wills factory.
IIRC that office was closed due to reorganisation and all admin was then done from Leeds.
I think at that point Dennis was working from home. We needed some advice on an O licence variation and on his invitation I went to his house at Whitley Bay for some assistance with the paperwork.
Hello once again T/S, The RHA Moved to Darlington , The to Cleckheaton, I used to attend the meetings, in Northumberland Street above Boots the chemists shop along with Bob your late Father and many many more hauliers from our area, As yoy say old Dennis used to get a lot of stick from various members, But I will not mention their names as some of them are long gone, But I must add that the meetings were never dull. , & After everyone said their bit , We all went away happy, Except for the odd one who I reckoned were bloody hard to please & should have been in some other industry, The haulage game was a hard thing to be in in those good old days, But I think its even harder , But Ive known nothing else In my life from being a kid & being brought up with my family of haulage folk, Smiles for Miles, T.Boiston & Sons, Rock on the haulage men Eh, Regards Larry, Now getting old but still enjoying life.