Unite rolls out Drivers’ Charter

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS THE UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUM (INTERACTIVE)
161

weeto:
An EC white paper issued in 1997 for the 48 hour week contained a proprosal to modify european driving hours within the limits of a 48 hour week, so the hours problem had already been sorted out.
I would say it would be a change to AETR rules if we ever pulled out of europe.

No there is no 48 hour max week under EU drivers hours regs.

Which in reality means an unrealistic driving time limit which forces trucks to stop when they could keep moving.Combined with a max 15 hour day which is what matters.

As for AETR why not ‘domestic’ in the case of ‘domestic’ only running operations. :confused:

162

Carryfast:

weeto:
for [zb] sake, you can tell its an election year! your in the wrong job carryfast.

Unfortunately history shows that the fortunes of the working class and especially everyone involved in the road transport industry are just as dependent on government policy as that of union policy.Which is why the unions formed the link with the Labour Party.The problem being that Labour Party policy long ago abandoned the interests of the working class while arguably never being on the side of anyone working in the road transport industry. :bulb:

So you seem to have all the answers, do you thinks drivers wages could improve if haulage companies refused to accept crap rates for the work they are carrying out? I say accept because thats all they can do to get the work.
I know this industry is a lost cause, for everyone concerned, it’s just comicle that hauliers and a vast amout of drivers accept whats thrown at them.

163

Carryfast:

weeto:
An EC white paper issued in 1997 for the 48 hour week contained a proprosal to modify european driving hours within the limits of a 48 hour week, so the hours problem had already been sorted out.
I would say it would be a change to AETR rules if we ever pulled out of europe.

No there is no 48 hour max week under EU drivers hours regs.

Which in reality means an unrealistic driving time limit which forces trucks to stop when they could keep moving.Combined with a max 15 hour day which is what matters.

As for AETR why not ‘domestic’ in the case of ‘domestic’ only running operations. :confused:

No, it says a proposal to modify.

164

Why are some drivers so keen to do two weeks work in one week, just so they can say I took £600 home this week! … Maybe there should be a national working hours restriction across the board , 40hours a week, a minimum wage set so that you can live on a decent wage at 40 hours , more job vacancies could open up to fulfil the needs , more people in work earning a good wage for a good standard of living, more people with money to spend & time to spend & enjoy it, more demand for goods & services , more jobs created as a result , more money moving & flowing through the country . a relay system in road transport for moving goods about so drivers get more time at home with families … In an ideal world maybe , in ours not a hope …

165

weeto:
So you seem to have all the answers, do you thinks drivers wages could improve if haulage companies refused to accept crap rates for the work they are carrying out? I say accept because thats all they can do to get the work.
I know this industry is a lost cause, for everyone concerned, it’s just comicle that hauliers and a vast amout of drivers accept whats thrown at them.

As I’ve said that would require something along the lines of the old US Master Freight Agreement which effectively sets a unified ( decent ) minimum wage and terms and conditions,by way of rate fixing,of at least that component of the rate, between different companies.

The problem in this case being that fuel taxation really throws a spanner in the works of any demand for a realistic wage structure within the industry.

166

kemaro:
Why are some drivers so keen to do two weeks work in one week, just so they can say I took £600 home this week! … Maybe there should be a national working hours restriction across the board , 40hours a week, a minimum wage set so that you can live on a decent wage at 40 hours , more job vacancies could open up to fulfil the needs , more people in work earning a good wage for a good standard of living, more people with money to spend & time to spend & enjoy it, more demand for goods & services , more jobs created as a result , more money moving & flowing through the country . a relay system in road transport for moving goods about so drivers get more time at home with families … In an ideal world maybe , in ours not a hope …

Only way you could get a wage fit for a proffesional driver working a 40 hr or less week is to do what the train drivers did, and strike for it.

167

weeto:

Carryfast:

weeto:
An EC white paper issued in 1997 for the 48 hour week contained a proprosal to modify european driving hours within the limits of a 48 hour week, so the hours problem had already been sorted out.
I would say it would be a change to AETR rules if we ever pulled out of europe.

No there is no 48 hour max week under EU drivers hours regs.

No, it says a proposal to modify.

The fact that any such ‘proposal’ has so far remained just that suggests that ( unsurprisingly ) it won’t work in practice.However the idea of a return to domestic regs but with a max 12 hour day/60 hour week limit probably would.

168

weeto:
Only way you could get a wage fit for a proffesional driver working a 40 hr or less week is to do what the train drivers did, and strike for it.

The fact is the logistics of train movements allows for such hours while still remaining workable.But road transport won’t.

169

Carryfast:

weeto:

Carryfast:

weeto:
An EC white paper issued in 1997 for the 48 hour week contained a proprosal to modify european driving hours within the limits of a 48 hour week, so the hours problem had already been sorted out.
I would say it would be a change to AETR rules if we ever pulled out of europe.

No there is no 48 hour max week under EU drivers hours regs.

No, it says a proposal to modify.

The fact that any such ‘proposal’ has so far remained just that suggests that ( unsurprisingly ) it won’t work in practice.However the idea of a return to domestic regs but with a max 12 hour day/60 hour week limit probably would.

The original proposal didnt need to be implemented, because between 1997 and 2007 some muppet invented POA which did away with having to ammend the EU drivers hours, which basicly meant nothing changed = drivers screwed over…

170

weeto:

Carryfast:
The fact that any such ‘proposal’ has so far remained just that suggests that ( unsurprisingly ) it won’t work in practice.However the idea of a return to domestic regs but with a max 12 hour day/60 hour week limit probably would.

The original proposal didnt need to be implemented, because between 1997 and 2007 some muppet invented POA which did away with having to ammend the EU drivers hours, which basicly meant nothing changed = drivers screwed over…

In which case as I said the Union would do better by getting back to its 1979 position by taking a Euro sceptic stance and going for a modified version of domestic regs with a more realistic max 12 hour day/60 hour week.

171

Carryfast:

weeto:
Only way you could get a wage fit for a proffesional driver working a 40 hr or less week is to do what the train drivers did, and strike for it.

The fact is the logistics of train movements allows for such hours while still remaining workable.But road transport won’t.

youve already said a 4 on 4 off system would work, prior to 2007 quite a few firms brought in 4 on 4 off because they thought that was the way to go on a 48 hr week, and works so well that its still in use today with more firms bringing it in.
I would say road transport is a lot more flexible at managing drivers hours than the rail network is, if needs be.

172

Carryfast:

weeto:

Carryfast:
The fact that any such ‘proposal’ has so far remained just that suggests that ( unsurprisingly ) it won’t work in practice.However the idea of a return to domestic regs but with a max 12 hour day/60 hour week limit probably would.

The original proposal didnt need to be implemented, because between 1997 and 2007 some muppet invented POA which did away with having to ammend the EU drivers hours, which basicly meant nothing changed = drivers screwed over…

In which case as I said the Union would do better by getting back to its 1979 position by taking a Euro sceptic stance and going for a modified version of domestic regs with a more realistic max 12 hour day/60 hour week.

Yeah we can go for that, ring unite up and get them to sort it, @ a rate of £10phr 40hrs and £15ph for 20 hrs, and if any one is on more than that now, tough your getting a wage cut, greedy gits.

173

Who wants to work 60 hours? Not me

174

Unions…

Worked for coal
Worked for rail
Worked for steel
Worked for ship building
Worked for car manufacturing
Worked for for all the working class eh?

Loving the references to “working class”, can Carryfast please describe “working class” in 2015?
Is it by wage?
Is it by job?
Is it by location?

As a teen of the early eighties in Yorkshire I have my own experiences and views of Unions, things that that would be deemed as terrorist these days, things done to innocent wives and children that would deserve being lifed off in prison by any decent human.
If you want to be with the union then good on you, it’s a free choice, well…apart from you having to pay for someone else to tell you how to think.
At my work place the union staff treat their job with immense disrespect, along with other staff. They cut corners and only do the bare minimum because they are “union” and therefore think they can do what they want without fear of the sack.
The union is there to make sure that they can do what they like no matter, even if that means fellow workers in the same role doing more.
Thankfully it also means they are on a worse deal thanks to the idiot that represents them, they don’t have the brains or the foresight to do things for them selves because the “union” does it for them, after all, the union saves their jobs so it must be right?

I hope the unions continue, sorts the chaff from the wheat, keeps the spineless under control of the selfish and lets the rest of us continue to develop, move and earn more.
I make no apologies if I have offended, and yes, I expect the insults as per Internet standard. However, the bottom line is this…
I don’t pay someone every month to tell me what to think
I don’t live in fear of my job due to someone else’s deluded opinions on my “rights”
I do earn more than the union secured for its staff, under a longer contract…for doing the same job
But best of all, it’s great fun reading all the posts about “class rights” and industry this that and the other, all ignoring the fact we now live in Europe, not England.
So until the Unions take control of European employment law, immigration, minimum wage, freedom of movement and so much more then the are increasingly pointless and desperate to survive
Unions and their members are only in it for themselves, not the good of everyne else, all this “drivers should stick together” is rubbish, it’s not a nationalised industry, therefore it has no standard, it’s free to do what it wants in regards to getting the job done, if drivers from another counrty want to work for less they will, nothing to do with the company, that’s Europe, wake up ffs.
You want to stick together across the country then go down the mines, or build a ship…the unions will look after you…

175

weeto:

Carryfast:

weeto:
Only way you could get a wage fit for a proffesional driver working a 40 hr or less week is to do what the train drivers did, and strike for it.

The fact is the logistics of train movements allows for such hours while still remaining workable.But road transport won’t.

youve already said a 4 on 4 off system would work, prior to 2007 quite a few firms brought in 4 on 4 off because they thought that was the way to go on a 48 hr week, and works so well that its still in use today with more firms bringing it in.

I said that 4 on 4 off is probably the most realistic way to make a 48 hour max week limit work.However it obviously won’t realistically work in the case of a tramping type operation.

It is also obviously a more labour intensive and higher labour cost operation than one which takes more advantage of the existing EU hours regs let alone one that maxes them out.In which case as I said the 4 on 4 off idea is obviously ( very ) susceptible to replacement by tramping type operations especially using cheap imported east Euro labour,let alone a flagged out east Euro cabotage operation,at least in the case of trunking type work.

However the fact is whichever option is used realistically,if any significant max week limit isn’t going to be wrecked by under cutting in whatever form,it would need to be made as an hours regs limit not just a union agreement based one and there’s no way of doing that without leaving the EU. :bulb:

176

kemaro:
Who wants to work 60 hours? Not me

That is obviously a max possible ‘allowed’ not a target.In which case existing EU hours regs ‘allow’ for more than that even before using any reduced daily/weekly rests.

177

Unions will not work en mass in tackling falling wages within UK road transport. The whole thing is too fragmented; falling like water through fingers.

Unionism historically works in capitalism when you hold some cards to the effect there is no one else to turn to. For example in rail, you cannot just magic train drivers over night. Back in the day when the current legacy rail conditions were formed and enshrined, rail was a single entity. A lot of the rail union ASLEF/RMT legacy lives on. But with privatisation, those terms are being eroded; Sunday working being one area of scope.

In road transport if even every single driver were in the same union:- within five minutes you could find more drivers willing for a start and break. There’s thousands of hauliers working, some under cabotage from foreign lands. Trying to ring fence and bring to ransom such a fluid machine does not work.

I work for an Icelandic owned company. It’s divided down the middle. The union men are icelandic and enjoy some of the finest terms in the industry. Then there’s the mercenaries such as myself. Contractors, forced to such conditions by circumstance and redundancy. The native union is protected and given currency to trade with. Iocal law dictates a certain amount of employees are Icelandic. There are only so many Icelanders who are qualified or capable of leaving the North Atlantic trawler fleet and train as air crew. The few that do join the union and bingo. You have your bargaining chip.

The emotional idea of unions bringing the transport millipede to its knees in the UK is shear fiction. You’re dealing with a road haulage industry of the past if you think that is possible and such thinking would not include a good understanding of capitalism. Do I like it? No. But understanding the reality is the first rule of forming any realistic plan.

The main detractor to any group union plan would be unifying drivers. For every 1 driver you could persuade to join such a crusade there would be 5 who would cite an opportunity and under cut to get work. There is no collective understanding anymore in road haulage unlike the “old days”.

A good indicator to me of the internal fragmentation was the thread I recently started on take home pay. In the air transport forums this idea was collectively lapped up almost with no argues/big long theoretical self indulgent ideas. That industry is in the throws of degrading terms. Yet on trucknet it failed like a lead zeppelin - people coming out with alsorts of ideas why even discussing that was a crap idea.

If road transport drivers can’t even collectively jump on board basic discussions about pay without arguing internally, taking on the industry machine as a unified group is a distant project.

178

Norfolkinclue1:
Unions…

Worked for coal
Worked for rail
Worked for steel
Worked for ship building
Worked for car manufacturing
Worked for for all the working class eh?

Loving the references to “working class”, can Carryfast please describe “working class” in 2015?
Is it by wage?
Is it by job?
Is it by location?

As a teen of the early eighties in Yorkshire I have my own experiences and views of Unions, things that that would be deemed as terrorist these days, things done to innocent wives and children that would deserve being lifed off in prison by any decent human.
If you want to be with the union then good on you, it’s a free choice, well…apart from you having to pay for someone else to tell you how to think.
At my work place the union staff treat their job with immense disrespect, along with other staff. They cut corners and only do the bare minimum because they are “union” and therefore think they can do what they want without fear of the sack.
The union is there to make sure that they can do what they like no matter, even if that means fellow workers in the same role doing more.
Thankfully it also means they are on a worse deal thanks to the idiot that represents them, they don’t have the brains or the foresight to do things for them selves because the “union” does it for them, after all, the union saves their jobs so it must be right?

I hope the unions continue, sorts the chaff from the wheat, keeps the spineless under control of the selfish and lets the rest of us continue to develop, move and earn more.
I make no apologies if I have offended, and yes, I expect the insults as per Internet standard. However, the bottom line is this…
I don’t pay someone every month to tell me what to think
I don’t live in fear of my job due to someone else’s deluded opinions on my “rights”
I do earn more than the union secured for its staff, under a longer contract…for doing the same job
But best of all, it’s great fun reading all the posts about “class rights” and industry this that and the other, all ignoring the fact we now live in Europe, not England.
So until the Unions take control of European employment law, immigration, minimum wage, freedom of movement and so much more then the are increasingly pointless and desperate to survive
Unions and their members are only in it for themselves, not the good of everyne else, all this “drivers should stick together” is rubbish, it’s not a nationalised industry, therefore it has no standard, it’s free to do what it wants in regards to getting the job done, if drivers from another counrty want to work for less they will, nothing to do with the company, that’s Europe, wake up ffs.
You want to stick together across the country then go down the mines, or build a ship…the unions will look after you…

In the sense that the unions,especially the road transport unions,are supportive of a government position which is contradictory to the interests of those who work in the industry,I’d agree with you.

However in the sense that without strong unions the working class ( which would generally include the average truck driver as opposed to a well paid banker ) wouldn’t be where it was in the 1930’s,in real terms,and as such isn’t now heading back there,that post is bs.Although ironically if that doesn’t prove the union’s stupidity in supporting the Labour Party’s EU agenda nothing does.

179

Freight Dog:
Unions will not work en mass in tackling falling wages within UK road transport. The whole thing is too fragmented; falling like water through fingers.

Unionism historically works in capitalism when you hold some cards to the effect there is no one else to turn to. For example in rail, you cannot just magic train drivers over night. Back in the day when the current legacy rail conditions were formed and enshrined, rail was a single entity. A lot of the rail union ASLEF/RMT legacy lives on. But with privatisation, those terms are being eroded; Sunday working being one area of scope.

In road transport if even every single driver were in the same union:- within five minutes you could find more drivers willing for a start and break. There’s thousands of hauliers working, some under cabotage from foreign lands. Trying to ring fence and bring to ransom such a fluid machine does not work.

I work for an Icelandic owned company. It’s divided down the middle. The union men are icelandic and enjoy some of the finest terms in the industry. Then there’s the mercenaries such as myself. Contractors, forced to such conditions by circumstance and redundancy. The native union is protected and given currency to trade with. Iocal law dictates a certain amount of employees are Icelandic. There are only so many Icelanders who are qualified or capable of leaving the North Atlantic trawler fleet and train as air crew. The few that do join the union and bingo. You have your bargaining chip.

The emotional idea of unions bringing the transport millipede to its knees in the UK is shear fiction. You’re dealing with a road haulage industry of the past if you think that is possible and such thinking would not include a good understanding of capitalism.

Do I like it? No. But understanding the reality is the first rule of forming any realistic plan.

Capitalism doesn’t get much more Capitalist than 1960’s USA and unions don’t get much stronger than the Teamsters of that time in that place.Make no mistake weak downtrodden workers being exploited by the few at the top is a defining feature of Communism not Capitalism. :bulb:

180

Carryfast:

Freight Dog:
Unions will not work en mass in tackling falling wages within UK road transport. The whole thing is too fragmented; falling like water through fingers.

Unionism historically works in capitalism when you hold some cards to the effect there is no one else to turn to. For example in rail, you cannot just magic train drivers over night. Back in the day when the current legacy rail conditions were formed and enshrined, rail was a single entity. A lot of the rail union ASLEF/RMT legacy lives on. But with privatisation, those terms are being eroded; Sunday working being one area of scope.

In road transport if even every single driver were in the same union:- within five minutes you could find more drivers willing for a start and break. There’s thousands of hauliers working, some under cabotage from foreign lands. Trying to ring fence and bring to ransom such a fluid machine does not work.

I work for an Icelandic owned company. It’s divided down the middle. The union men are icelandic and enjoy some of the finest terms in the industry. Then there’s the mercenaries such as myself. Contractors, forced to such conditions by circumstance and redundancy. The native union is protected and given currency to trade with. Iocal law dictates a certain amount of employees are Icelandic. There are only so many Icelanders who are qualified or capable of leaving the North Atlantic trawler fleet and train as air crew. The few that do join the union and bingo. You have your bargaining chip.

The emotional idea of unions bringing the transport millipede to its knees in the UK is shear fiction. You’re dealing with a road haulage industry of the past if you think that is possible and such thinking would not include a good understanding of capitalism.

Do I like it? No. But understanding the reality is the first rule of forming any realistic plan.

Capitalism doesn’t get much more Capitalist than 1960’s USA and unions don’t get much stronger than the Teamsters of that time in that place.Make no mistake weak downtrodden workers being exploited by the few at the top is a defining feature of Communism not Capitalism. :bulb:

No it is not. That is the reality of the capitist society that is today. Just because you have to adapt and understand the nature of what you’re dealing with doesn’t mean you live under communism.

I do not care much for long protracted social political discussions unless for the fun of it. If you’re trying to achieve something, shelve the grand political rhetoric, understand not only the modern situation you’re in but also, perceive where it is going. Then talk turkey.

Rambling on about historical politics is great and I’ve spent many a night at the diesel club or club 13 in Bangladesh with Icelandic’s finest on a lay over but we weren’t trying to discuss how to rectify failing terms in an industry.