ok 
That’s superb, bma. Not only do we have the means of specifying the best machinery, we have our own resident styling guru. I reckon your impression is dead right- the few Leylands that were built without the LAD cab (furniture vans etc.) still had the front-end detail exactly as you have drawn it. If only the British manufacturers of the era had had the foresight to market such a vehicle…
[zb]
anorak:
That’s superb, bma. Not only do we have the means of specifying the best machinery, we have our own resident styling guru. I reckon your impression is dead right- the few Leylands that were built without the LAD cab (furniture vans etc.) still had the front-end detail exactly as you have drawn it. If only the British manufacturers of the era had had the foresight to market such a vehicle…
Hey up [ZB], take a look at the “Belgian” AECs, tell me, are they not “better” than any theoretic lorry?? And does not bma`s SISU look really handsome, (is that a derivative of M Berliets “Relax” cab??
Now as I sit here in the office, all the Maize done, most of the ground too wet to get the spuds out, (and the great British Housewife will care little for the fact that “her” shrink wrapped spuds will have come from,…where ever, only that they are cheap!!
So my mind, (with the aid of a little Bollinger to provide lubrication), turns to reflect upon…
The fact that in the 1950s,Leyland, (including Albion), were selling around 27000 heavy units anually. An order of 1000chassis was common, South America, Africa, Ceylon, Cuba, (was it 600plus Buses)? Let alone the volumes from “our” Colonies!
It was not all vehicles…why for many years did the Scania Vabis 11.1 litre share manywith the Leyland11.1 litre 680? Pegaso…do some of you remember the Pegaso axle, current on Seddon Atkinson of 1986…of course it was familiar…it was an Albion design from the 60s!! Then of course Leyland "rescued " DAF, long in the deep mire with Hercules Petrols, and our own “Polly” Perkins… Sold our dear Cloggie friends the licences for the 0.350, 0.375, and of course the 0.680. Then there was Belgiums Brossel, and engines for Finlands SISU, (one of the worlds least recognised marques, but superb engineers.
Let alone all the UK builders who “lusted” to fit a Leyland into their offerings…Rutland, TVW, Dodge, Bedford, and let us not forget just how many 0.350/375s crossed the Atlantic to give the US operator economy of purpose!!
So, then there was the disasterous Standard Triumph acquisition, and the ugly, unloved and wanted “light” Leylands. And, “destination disaster”, Leyland s acquisition of ACV, (AEC, Crossley, Maudsley and Thornycroft),Van Heul/Kromhout et al.
The combined ACV/Leyland should have dominated the world markets…it was a collosus…with great products, but it did not work!!
Was the fault at senior level, Donald Stokes, Stanley Markland at Leyland, or Sir William Black, andJim Slater at AEC, or perhaps it was lower down the mansgement chain, (where real “brand rivalry” flourishes)!! For I can remember, from personal experience how “middle managers” really destroyed the "easy " way to go forward in the Saviem Berliet merger, for no other reason than, to preserve “their world”.
But back to Leyland AEC, lets look at Europe, as well as the larger world.
My hunting ground, la belle France, then there was Hotchkiss, struggling financially, yet Leyland “hooked up” with them, despite their precarious situation, tried to produce a Leyland Hotchkiss, (fitted with a Pelpel cabin). Yet up in Seine was a viable AEC tie up with Willeme, whose products, sold through over 500 points in France, the Benelux and Spain, even down to North Africa,were in effect AEC drivelines in a French vehicle…lets not forget that BMCs rigids were sold badged as Willeme. Yet this tie up was allowed to founder!!
Willeme, desperate for a joint venture, and remember a strong player in their domestic market,were denied any financial support from the new group, gasped…tried again…the door was closed…so expired… and why this was going on, …unsurprisingly Hotchkiss went to bankrupcey…what a b…up, thats Europes potential gone, and in effect the end of British influence in the European Lorry market!!
"But weve got South America sir! Even more of a ■■■■ up, Now ACV, firmly established as an assembler in Argentina, where they assembled BMC cars, light commercials as well as Lorries and Buses. But Leyland, to protect itself from the "protectionist" attitudes creeping into Uraguay, Brazil, Chile, and Argentina, began to negotiate with its Importer the Family Pruden to establish a production plant, whilst closing ACVs plant! Then, …of course the Import Ban came about…but dear old Scania was already building in Brazil!!
So the net result…nil, absolutely nil, the worlds strongest lorry builder committed suicide on the alter of the “British disease” Gross managerial incompetence!! And managed within two years to exclude itself from potentially the most viable long term markets available to anyone…ever!!
Apologies [ZB], I have, (with the aid of M Bollinger), managed to stray far from your excellent thread. No doubt some of you more skilled than I can conjour from yon either, images of a Hotchkiss/Pelpel Leyland, and Willeme Horizon AEC, and forgive me for my dissertation , (even as a precis), of the disaster that became Leyland, “never have so many lost so much to so few”, as I would put it today!
Do yo know Gentlemen, I really dislike the "old " British management structure, it ruined business, in all spheres, and it sent me away from these shores…but in old age Im back, and I still cannot lift my spuds.... its a “two bottle night tonight” Cheerio for now.
No need for apologies, any inside information on the workings of the 1950s/'60s manufacturers is of great value, to this or any other discussion. The later history is well documented in books, magazines and forums like this, but stuff from the earlier period is hard to come by. Sales volumes of the different manufacturers in the different markets, over the years, tell the best story of all, but try finding such information now! For example, what was Leyland, AEC and Foden’s share of the French, Belgium and Netherlands markets, from 1955 to 1960? Data like that would provide fodder for endless hours of argument.
Is this the Bernard model you mentioned earlier?
Sorry [ZB], thats the first Charbonix cab, but it does have air suspension. No, I was back on the Pelpel, “conventional” layout, Le Seigneur de la Route, truly the" Lord" ( I must learn to get the best from this machine), then I could post my photographs! Cheerio for now.
Have you managed to get your pommes de terre out, Saviem, or are they rotting in the ground like the British motor industry?
Evening all,[ZB], she is the girl, photographs never ever show how handsome they truly where. The rigids were spectacular, particularly with van bodywork.
I could kick myself now, the opportunities that I had to own one, (for next to nothing), but that is history. Those cabs stayed together ever so well, and the Twin stick/“Gardner” combination was superb…but velocity was modest!
ROF, no we cannot get a lot out, just sink in, it a`int good…invest in spuds…they are getting rare!!!
Cheerio for now.
Saviem:
Evening all,[ZB], she is the girl, photographs never ever show how handsome they truly where. The rigids were spectacular, particularly with van bodywork.I could kick myself now, the opportunities that I had to own one, (for next to nothing), but that is history. Those cabs stayed together ever so well, and the Twin stick/“Gardner” combination was superb…but velocity was modest!
Cheerio for now.
They can’t have been that slow for 1960. The 6LX had 150bhp at 1700rpm(?), whereas the more powerful engines relied on revs for the headline number: most of them had about 200bhp at around 2200rpm. Not much difference in torque (hence power) at the lower engine speeds. The most powerful Scania Vabis had 165bhp at 2200, until 1961, when it got a chuff puffer. Also, did Bernard, Kromhout et al not squeeze a bit more go out of them? I imagine that, compared to the 240bhp machines from about 1965, a 6LX would be left behind, though.
Evening all, [ZB], the thing is, if you can maintain a steady average, at a reasonable gulping of the go go juice, then you are not far behind the “racers”, (who have probably only spent time in an indifferent gastronomic establishment, to their future ill health)!! and you have made a profit on the job!! Why else should you be in business??
Now my Bernard, gave from memory about 120hp, (Bernard Gardners were always “keener” on bhp), but was quiet and easy to drive on the governor, (the big difference I found with Bernard built Gardners was the “soft” throttle), the quiet cab, and the delightfully easy gearchange, (far less interlectually challenging than Mr Fodens 12speed)!! But I loved, loved that gearbox!!
And that configuration , with the long nose,was well balanced, and more relaxing to drive than a “cabover”. As one of my French friends told me, “the driver of a Bernard, he was never unhappy, he had status, and he drove the best lorry in the whole world”!! Eat your heart out PACCAR!!
So I will stick with my choice, and forever regret my loss in not acquiring one when I could have!!
Bon Routes mes Amis, Cheerio for now.
if i cant take aLBS76 from 63 i get this LV75 sportswagon 
The cab on bma’s dream machine is mounted lower than all of the other LV75s I have seen, suggesting it was built independently, possibly on a B71 chassis- so it could be pre-1958. I found this photo of one in a show. Is that an L71 in the background?
The beauty of the LV was that the cab subframe and mechanical parts were all done before the coachbuilder got his hands on it, leaving him the freedom to concentrate on the upper structure of the cab (I guess this was similar to the system the British assemblers used, although the cabs on 1950s GB wagons seemed to be designed to hurt the driver as much as possible!). Given a competent sheet metalworker- and a joiner, if wood was your material of choice- you could do anything you wanted, safe in the knowledge that the engineering underneath was proven. You just needed someone to do the styling sketches, and produce working drawings for the skilled people in the workshop. Over to you, bma…
hej anorak, it,s nightingtime for my ,so had to do qick one. so this is a finish motor WILKE ,based on VOLVO VIKING, build befor the bubble was avlibule ,only few were done ,couse when bubble came this was useless 
,not my ultimate tractor,so what about the 76 can i have it ,pleace ,cheers benkku
240 Gardner:
How does this one look?
Export Leyland Artic by colinfpickett, on Flickr
Evening all, you know Chris, when I see pictures like that, and remember the positive comments that I used to hear, all favourable and allof them about…
“our” products, in France, Belgium,Holland and Switzerland, and remember the history, (my ramblings on page 1 of this thread), just makes me b… mad at the school of British management that allowed such a debacle to happen.
I shall away to reflect upon such points, with the aid of a little Bollinger, (and wonder how much a new pair of spectacles will cost me, as I have (for the third time this month), crushed them irrepairably)!! And I cannot see what bIm doing …Cheerio for now!
Blimey, that Leyland is more or less what I ordered, and bma drew (what’s wrong with an LV75? Surely the one in my avatar would be a match for anything else of the era, especially if it had the 1961 205bhp engine?) If you allow for the fact that my dream 8 cyl Gardner would not have been available in 1960 (apologies for stretching the bounds of commonsense), then that Leyland is bang on spec. The cab looks to have much more space inside than an LAD. One can only speculate that it was more comfortable than the Leyland cab, but there must have been a reason for the Dutch to go to the trouble. Top research, 240 G. If you have a look at the one in the background of the photo, does it appear to have a different cab- one which looks even more like bma’s drawing?
Saviem:
Evening all, you know Chris, when I see pictures like that, and remember the positive comments that I used to hear, all favourable and allof them about…“our” products, in France, Belgium,Holland and Switzerland, and remember the history, (my ramblings on page 1 of this thread), just makes me b… mad at the school of British management that allowed such a debacle to happen.
I shall away to reflect upon such points, with the aid of a little Bollinger, (and wonder how much a new pair of spectacles will cost me, as I have (for the third time this month), crushed them irrepairably)!! And I cannot see what bIm doing …Cheerio for now!
There must have been sound commercial reasons for the entire British commercial vehicle industry to neglect the Continental market in the 1950s and '60s. Import duty could have been avoided by assembling the things locally, like Scania Vabis did in Zwolle. Was it just reluctance to spend the money on developing a big cab, or expanding the dealer network?
An AEC with the Sleeper type mk5 cab that asain transport had on there mammoth major drawbar for me.
bma.finland:
ok
I’ll take it, in green please! What a great image bma. It reminds me of either a Commer or a Karrier cab (high bulkhead and smaller windscreen) and when I was a little lad I used to think that they were American (don’t know why, maybe it was their latter association with the Dodge name)
kr79:
An AEC with the Sleeper type mk5 cab that asain transport had on there mammoth major drawbar for me.
The impression I get from what I have read, is that it was horrible. One of the drivers blamed its noise for his loss of hearing. I wonder if the Bollekens-cabbed export AECs were better? A swift perusal of Pat Kennett’s book reveals that AEC had numerous affiliations in Europe in the early 1960s, yet none of these is documented in detail anywhere, at least as far as I can see. Given that several posters have selected AEC as their best European chassis of that period, it would be interesting to find out how they compared to the other makes, when fitted with Continental coachwork.
in scandinavia we like boneted in to 70 ,s a sleepercab SISU whit leyland 680 -59
first to go to europe ,tru haparanda( no ferry,s then)