Agreed. A selfless decision to share information that might help other drivers was hijacked and turned into a series of unfounded personal attacks. Which inhibits mature discussion of a serious point.
Wheel Nut:
No attitude, a sensible discussion was spoiled yet again. Does it matter where Peter comes from, or his wife.
We all have access to “EC” Documentaries and Documents. We can all have an opinion.What’s it matter where you live? What you have done? And whether your spouse is English, Welsh or Thai?
I think, maybe, you’re on my side , but not quite sure 
I most definitely am!
wanderingstar:
I most definitely am!
Merci !!!
De rien mon ami 
Wheel Nut:
No attitude, a sensible discussion was spoiled yet again. Does it matter where Peter comes from, or his wife.
We all have access to “EC” Documentaries and Documents. We can all have an opinion.What’s it matter where you live? What you have done? And whether your spouse is English, Welsh or Thai?
Well Malcolm, I don’t live in Melbourne, Derby or Yorkshire and so wouldn’t presume to meddle in their business? Macron and Merkel and their predecessors have shown how anti-British they are down the years. This is a truck drivers forum. I don’t think there’s much for us to talk about because as it stands we have zilch in the way of facts/agreements. The people you want to have a sensible discussion are the political leaders but what are we getting from them? Nonsense and posturing, threats and while this is going on there are a lot of people caught in the middle with their futures undecided but the politicians always forget them, casualties of war, collateral damage while those ■■■■■■■■■ continue to pick up their mega salaries and expenses, which is what it’s all about at the end of the day.
Let me state this for absolute clarity, I think the politicians on all sides have behaved disgracefully, as usual, when it comes to those who are in limbo under the present situation. If they were genuinely concerned about people, REAL PEOPLE, they would have resolved the issue of whether or not EU nationals in the UK could stay and vice versa as a matter of urgency. To their eternal shame, they haven’t, I doubt they feel shame. We don’t need this layer of gravy train riders and the sooner we offload them the better.
TiredAndEmotional:
Wheel Nut:
No attitude, a sensible discussion was spoiled yet again. Does it matter where Peter comes from, or his wife.
We all have access to “EC” Documentaries and Documents. We can all have an opinion.What’s it matter where you live? What you have done? And whether your spouse is English, Welsh or Thai?
Well Malcolm, I don’t live in Melbourne, Derby or Yorkshire and so wouldn’t presume to meddle in their business? Macron and Merkel and their predecessors have shown how anti-British they are down the years. This is a truck drivers forum. I don’t think there’s much for us to talk about because as it stands we have zilch in the way of facts/agreements. The people you want to have a sensible discussion are the political leaders but what are we getting from them? Nonsense and posturing, threats and while this is going on there are a lot of people caught in the middle with their futures undecided but the politicians always forget them, casualties of war, collateral damage while those [zb] continue to pick up their mega salaries and expenses, which is what it’s all about at the end of the day.
Let me state this for absolute clarity, I think the politicians on all sides have behaved disgracefully, as usual, when it comes to those who are in limbo under the present situation. If they were genuinely concerned about people, REAL PEOPLE, they would have resolved the issue of whether or not EU nationals in the UK could stay and vice versa as a matter of urgency. To their eternal shame, they haven’t, I doubt they feel shame. We don’t need this layer of gravy train riders and the sooner we offload them the better.
I’ve got lots to agree with in your post, and some things to dispute.
Since it seems to be an issue I’ll say firstly that I’m UK based but work mostly in France. The company I work for is also UK based but has strong French links. Brexit is affecting us. Licencing changes will affect us.
Politicians. I largely agree that they behave like a shower of short sighted fools. They talk (sometimes) of a long term goal but their actions rarely match their words. When they enter politics many of them do so from noble convictions but time soon wears down even the better ones. The need to be reelected every few years, the need to match impossible promises of lower taxes and better services! It’s said we get the politicians we deserve? What have we done to deserve this lot? (All parties included) Well I’ve got a few opinions on that, but I’ll spare you that.
Now to ask you, why do you say Macron and Merkel are anti UK?
Are they upset about the UK leaving the EU? Yes, and because it’s affecting them they’re speaking about that. They’ve said its our decision and our right to leave, but since it affects them they’ve every right to comment. Maybe summat else makes you say they’re anti UK? I’m sure you’ll let me know. And I’m very sure you’ll do it as well tempered as you always do. [emoji3]
I’ve said before I think Brexit is a bad idea for the UK and for Europe as a whole. I won’t rehearse all the arguments I’ve used again in full. I’ll just point up that I can see ways the UK will loose out and the EU will loose out. I’ve seen only wishful thinking and vague ideas of “opportunities out there”. Ever heard of those two birds in the bush? In this case we’re giving up summat that works (less than perfectly) for something that we can’t even see!
I’m gonna try for an hour’s more kip now. I fancy pain au raisan in the morning, I’ll save my brioche for later. I’m not so greedy as to expect it all.
[emoji6]
Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
I hope no one has access to the “allegedly” 2 nuclear buttons, it seems the ballistics are aimed at the wrong target [emoji457] and whoopee I have got a stalker [emoji102]
Read the thread again before firing off loose ordnance
Dont be so worried lads its looking like northern Ireland will throw a big spanner in the works its impossible to see how they can get anything agreed
It might even bring the whole lot to its knees
Wheel Nut:
I hope no one has access to the “allegedly” 2 nuclear buttons, it seems the ballistics are aimed at the wrong target [emoji457] and whoopee I have got a stalker [emoji102]
Read the thread again before firing off loose ordnance
You’ve got paranoia 
At last a diagnosis, [emoji14]
Franglais:
Economics is a non zero sum game. International trade can, should and does increase wealth for all trading countries. It doesn’t always do it equally or “fairly”, it’s true.Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
Having been listening and reading stuff about the disparity between the richest and poorest nations, all involved in International trade, I would strongly disagree with that statement, the richest nations and the multi global corporations that emanate from those countries bleed money out of the poorest countries in the World, at a rate many times greater than all the Government and NGO aid that goes the other way.
And organisations such as the WTO, IMF and World Bank exacerbate the problem, as they are very much set up to favour the richest nations.
muckles:
Having been listening and reading stuff about the disparity between the richest and poorest nations, all involved in International trade, I would strongly disagree with that statement, the richest nations and the multi global corporations that emanate from those countries bleed money out of the poorest countries in the World, at a rate many times greater than all the Government and NGO aid that goes the other way.
And organisations such as the WTO, IMF and World Bank exacerbate the problem, as they are very much set up to favour the richest nations.
Another angle is that the aid is a bribe to the leaders of the poor countries to enable the exploitation of their populations. Corruption always plays a big role in the brokenness of these nations.
Franglais:
Politicians. I largely agree that they behave like a shower of short sighted fools. They talk (sometimes) of a long term goal but their actions rarely match their words. When they enter politics many of them do so from noble convictions but time soon wears down even the better ones.Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
The political model that most democratic countries sign up to require those that want high office to have financial backing and influential friends and the bigger the political entity, the more money and influential establishment friends you need to get power and the more the ordinary people lose influence in the seats of power.
I wonder in these days of mass communications whether it would be possible for everybody to represent themselves, instead of electing a representative, who has their own agenda for wanting power.
wanderingstar:
muckles:
Having been listening and reading stuff about the disparity between the richest and poorest nations, all involved in International trade, I would strongly disagree with that statement, the richest nations and the multi global corporations that emanate from those countries bleed money out of the poorest countries in the World, at a rate many times greater than all the Government and NGO aid that goes the other way.
And organisations such as the WTO, IMF and World Bank exacerbate the problem, as they are very much set up to favour the richest nations.Another angle is that the aid is a bribe to the leaders of the poor countries to enable the exploitation of their populations. Corruption always plays a big role in the brokenness of these nations.
Agreed, corruption and debt, aid and loans have been used as the leverage to privatise services in poor countries, so those services are then taken over by multi nationals with the profits leaving the country and ending up with the richest people in the richest countries of the World, with a little cut for the cooperation of local politician.
muckles:
I wonder in these days of mass communications whether it would be possible for everybody to represent themselves, instead of electing a representative, who has their own agenda for wanting power.
I think a direct democracy could have some advantages over a representative democracy, but either system is/would be fraught with problems under universal suffrage, the core problem being the influenceability of the average voter. I would personally distribute political power meritocratically, rather than granting it just by the default of being a national of maturity age. Democracy combined with unregulated capitalism combined with international free trade is a combination that can only head in one direction - the direction it’s heading in!
muckles:
Franglais:
Economics is a non zero sum game. International trade can, should and does increase wealth for all trading countries. It doesn’t always do it equally or “fairly”, it’s true.Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
Having been listening and reading stuff about the disparity between the richest and poorest nations, all involved in International trade, I would strongly disagree with that statement, the richest nations and the multi global corporations that emanate from those countries bleed money out of the poorest countries in the World, at a rate many times greater than all the Government and NGO aid that goes the other way.
And organisations such as the WTO, IMF and World Bank exacerbate the problem, as they are very much set up to favour the richest nations.
I’m certainly not going to disagree with you in saying that international trade is biased towards making the rich, richer. It is.
But specifically in the EU Brexit arguments I would say that trade barriers would make us ALL poorer. And much as I’d like to be wrong, I’m convinced that’s the way we’re going.
A different sort of democracy in the future? Sounds good. But I wonder how many of us would really engage in such a system? Putting an X in a box every 4 years is too much for many. And do we really believe that some TV channels owners won’t be spinning lies to influence us all?
I’d like to imagine it could be a success but the cynic in me has too many doubts.
Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
wanderingstar:
muckles:
I wonder in these days of mass communications whether it would be possible for everybody to represent themselves, instead of electing a representative, who has their own agenda for wanting power.I think a direct democracy could have some advantages over a representative democracy, but either system is/would be fraught with problems under universal suffrage, the core problem being the influenceability of the average voter. I would personally distribute political power meritocratically, rather than granting it just by the default of being a national of maturity age. Democracy combined with unregulated capitalism combined with international free trade is a combination that can only head in one direction - the direction it’s heading in!
The problem with a meritocratic system is who decides who is worthy?
It requires some sort of establishment or elite class and they’ll only allow people who agree with their principles to vote and those that have the right to vote end up beholden to those who get them there, so no better than we have now, in fact even worse as those not considered worthy have no vote at all.
Democracy isn’t the problem, but in the last 20 to 30 years most of the electorate of the developed countries have had little realistic choice except for politicians who follow neo-liberal economic policies, with only slight variations.
muckles:
The problem with a meritocratic system is who decides who is worthy?
It requires some sort of establishment or elite class and they’ll only allow people who agree with their principles to vote and those that have the right to vote end up beholden to those who get them there, so no better than we have now, in fact even worse as those not considered worthy have no vote at all.
Legally defined, objective criteria, e.g. an IQ cut-off plus a state-funded qualification in philosophy/politics/economics. To have a system where the thickest, most uneducated person has power equal to that of a conscious, knowledgeable one is lunatic.
Franglais:
muckles:
Franglais:
Economics is a non zero sum game. International trade can, should and does increase wealth for all trading countries. It doesn’t always do it equally or “fairly”, it’s true.Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
Having been listening and reading stuff about the disparity between the richest and poorest nations, all involved in International trade, I would strongly disagree with that statement, the richest nations and the multi global corporations that emanate from those countries bleed money out of the poorest countries in the World, at a rate many times greater than all the Government and NGO aid that goes the other way.
And organisations such as the WTO, IMF and World Bank exacerbate the problem, as they are very much set up to favour the richest nations.I’m certainly not going to disagree with you in saying that international trade is biased towards making the rich, richer. It is.
But specifically in the EU Brexit arguments I would say that trade barriers would make us ALL poorer. And much as I’d like to be wrong, I’m convinced that’s the way we’re going.
A different sort of democracy in the future? Sounds good. But I wonder how many of us would really engage in such a system? Putting an X in a box every 4 years is too much for many. And do we really believe that some TV channels owners won’t be spinning lies to influence us all?
I’d like to imagine it could be a success but the cynic in me has too many doubts.Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
I’ve no doubt that leaving the EU will have a negative effect on UK trade, but I feel the issue of far bigger and long term. The institutions and economic system that the wealthiest rely on to make money while using more and more of the Worlds finite resources and while half the population of the World exist on less than $5 a day, must be dismantled. The EU is part of that problem as is the British government.
As for the idea of direct representation, I believe the anarchist political model has a similar idea. It’s only a musing and not a firm idea as of yet and no doubt has loads of holes in it. It needs some brain storming. 
But people being influenced, that’s no different than today, but when you actually have to vote directly for a media mogul to pay less tax and that is funded by budgets cuts for the NHS and you see the direct correlation and have nobody else to blame than yourself, then people might actually take more care over their decisions and with millions voting and with experience of understanding their decision matters, maybe the law of averages will mean that the results are better for the people, not just a few of the elite.
As I know you’ve read “23 things they don’t tell you about capitalism”, you remember what he said about the economists view of workers and the reality.