The permits we used previously predate the current form of the European Union. Who can say what form any new permit will take.? I am speculating of course, but I doubt any permit will favour our hauliers. It’s not likely when full EU member states have large haulage industries. What would Poland Hungary and other countries say if permits were freely and widely available to UK hauliers?
You may think I’m looking at the dark side of possibilities, I’m afraid some of you are still looking through rosey tints.
I sat through Jeremy Corbyns wishy washy attempt to attract new fans, much like he tried to get votes from the students about tuition fees.
We didn’t need IRFO permits for most of the continent, those we did mainly ended up as annual permits,
acd1202:
There is absolutely no mention of any permits in the EU paper other than the book, again you are confusing the EU with a country, it isn’t, and consequently loading between other states is not and never has been cabotage. The document is quite clear that cabotage will not be allowed either within the UK by EU hauliers or within any single EU state by UK hauliers, long since this was covered by the old Red book, there is no mention of its reintroduction. The permit is required for traffic to a third country for a trip involving the UK.
I do wish people would read thngs bofore passing comment.
Of course as you correctly say this paper is considering a “cliff edge” Brexit and negotiation may leave something looking totally different.
You are right in saying about cabotage, but I meant if no agreement is reached, brits will fall back to WTO rules and have to make agreements with different countries in the EU, in stead of getting a agreement with all of the EU, so I assume they will get different permits for different countries.
Tomorrow i will check what Turkish, Russian and/or Albanian trucks need.
There have been loads and loads and loads of comments in past posts of how and why cabotage is happening in the UK and how it’s destroying the industry for UK hauliers. Well now the chickens are coming home to roost, the rules are coming that will stop a UK haulier going to deliver in F,B,D,NL etc. and not be allowed to load in that country to deliver within the EU27 but can ONLY load to return to the UK or come home EMPTY!
Now, this will be reciprocal, a foreign truck from the EU27 will come to deliver to the UK and will ONLY be allowed to load goods to return to the EU27, not where he loaded but to any member state within the EU. They will not be allowed to deliver, let’s say in Luton, run up to Birmingham for a load to go to Manchester, tip and run to Liverpool collect a load for somewhere else within the UK then run to somewhere else to load and return home to where he came from, within the EU!
Surely for all the whingers on here and in the UK in general, who keep shouting and moaning about the “EE companies that are coming here with cheap diesel, then working within our borders, stealing work on the CHEAP, putting pressure on UK hauliers”, this will be beneficial for the UK? They come in, deliver, get a load, then FO from whence they came!!!
acd1202:
There is absolutely no mention of any permits in the EU paper other than the book, again you are confusing the EU with a country, it isn’t, and consequently loading between other states is not and never has been cabotage. The document is quite clear that cabotage will not be allowed either within the UK by EU hauliers or within any single EU state by UK hauliers, long since this was covered by the old Red book, there is no mention of its reintroduction. The permit is required for traffic to a third country for a trip involving the UK.
I do wish people would read thngs bofore passing comment.
Of course as you correctly say this paper is considering a “cliff edge” Brexit and negotiation may leave something looking totally different.
You are right in saying about cabotage, but I meant if no agreement is reached, brits will fall back to WTO rules and have to make agreements with different countries in the EU, in stead of getting a agreement with all of the EU, so I assume they will get different permits for different countries.
Tomorrow i will check what Turkish, Russian and/or Albanian trucks need.
As I understand it the countries in the EU cant make seperate deals outside it. That’s one of the reasons we’re leaving: so we can make a better deal with, say the USA than the EU as a block can make.
The countries in the EU can’t make seperate deals with us. We must deal with them as a block.
And they do have a lot if cheap hauliers looking for work. How many permits will we offered?
Of course we could refuse to allow EU trucks to load here. So with trucks running loaded only one way all the time, rates would almost double and so exports and imports would all fall etc etc.
I doubt it’ll get that bad. That’d be awful for everyone. But I doubt it’ll be a blessing for UK hauliers.
The happy medium here is for UK domestic drivers to “lapse” DCPC once we’ve left the EU, whilst those haulage yards running trucks across the channel - keep on with it. Same applies the other way around as well.
The “restrictions on immigration” that we all want to see - does NOT involve banning EU-Born incoming workers but involves instead banning “Migrants” that are “no speke English, No Job, No Papers” types from anywhere BUT Europe.
Winseer:
The happy medium here is for UK domestic drivers to “lapse” DCPC once we’ve left the EU, whilst those haulage yards running trucks across the channel - keep on with it. Same applies the other way around as well.
The “restrictions on immigration” that we all want to see - does NOT involve banning EU-Born incoming workers but involves instead banning “Migrants” that are “no speke English, No Job, No Papers” types from anywhere BUT Europe.
Winseer, have you actually read the pdf ■■
We’re not talking about lapsing DCPC’s for UK drivers and carrying on working in England without having the qualification. This post was directed at UK drivers going to, or working within the EU! UK owner drivers going to Europe. It was about the problems that they may find with their licences, their driver CPC’s and operator CPC’s, that the way it is at the moment, won’t be allowed after 03/2019.
And it certainly had SFA about immigration!!!
> That system does not permit > cabotage operations, i.e. operations by foreign carriers within a single State. This > means, in particular, that United Kingdom hauliers will no longer be able to > perform cabotage operations within any of the EU-27 Member States.
Precisely! Within any of the EU27, not between any of the 27. Between any of the 27 is not cabotage it is a multi country trip and will require the vehicle to have the new version of an ECMT book, inside a member state eg Munich to Cologne is cabotage and will be outlawed. Again it comes to the fact that the EU is not a country.
acd1202:
There is absolutely no mention of any permits in the EU paper other than the book, again you are confusing the EU with a country, it isn’t, and consequently loading between other states is not and never has been cabotage. The document is quite clear that cabotage will not be allowed either within the UK by EU hauliers or within any single EU state by UK hauliers, long since this was covered by the old Red book, there is no mention of its reintroduction. The permit is required for traffic to a third country for a trip involving the UK.
I do wish people would read thngs bofore passing comment.
Of course as you correctly say this paper is considering a “cliff edge” Brexit and negotiation may leave something looking totally different.
You are right in saying about cabotage, but I meant if no agreement is reached, brits will fall back to WTO rules and have to make agreements with different countries in the EU, in stead of getting a agreement with all of the EU, so I assume they will get different permits for different countries.
Tomorrow i will check what Turkish, Russian and/or Albanian trucks need.
As I understand it the countries in the EU cant make seperate deals outside it. That’s one of the reasons we’re leaving: so we can make a better deal with, say the USA than the EU as a block can make.
The countries in the EU can’t make seperate deals with us. We must deal with them as a block.
And they do have a lot if cheap hauliers looking for work. How many permits will we offered?
Of course we could refuse to allow EU trucks to load here. So with trucks running loaded only one way all the time, rates would almost double and so exports and imports would all fall etc etc.
I doubt it’ll get that bad. That’d be awful for everyone. But I doubt it’ll be a blessing for UK hauliers.
Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
With due respect Franglais, that isn’t how permits work. In a situation where a haulier needs a permit to load in a country he would have needed the permit to enter in the first place, so only hauliers with the correct permits take on the original load; however I see no mention of single country permits being suggested, indeed they would be illegal under single market rules. The problem arises when a third country comes into the equation, then we come to this new multi trip permit. The result is that only those hauliers who are setup with the necessary can do the work, this coupled to a possible restriction on permit numbers, although it’s in nobody’s interest to artificially restrict trade in this way, can only result in upwards pressure in rates, the haulier who is on his toes and bags these permits early can only win by it.
The problem occurs when a change of plan unexpectedly requires a permit. In 1998 I had taken a load from UK to Poland, we had a reciprocal agreement with Poland and didn’t need permits, I always returned empty to Leuna to reload since at that time tanker loads ex Poland were very rare, however on tipping I was offered a reload to Holland, I accepted forgetting that neither the Dutch nor Germans had such an agreement and so a permit was necessary, getting through Stettin proved interesting, Maybe the bottom line to this is that where there’s a will, there’s a way; there is always some unattended trainee ready for his bed at 3 am who’s ripe for duping.
> That system does not permit > cabotage operations, i.e. operations by foreign carriers within a single State. This > means, in particular, that United Kingdom hauliers will no longer be able to > perform cabotage operations within any of the EU-27 Member States.
Precisely! Within any of the EU27, not between any of the 27. Between any of the 27 is not cabotage it is a multi country trip and will require the vehicle to have the new version of an ECMT book, inside a member state eg Munich to Cologne is cabotage and will be outlawed. Again it comes to the fact that the EU is not a country.
^^^^
This
Re the dcpc though, its going to prove a very expensive process if its not going to be recognised in the eu (and vice versa). Ferry trailers could increase which could benefit uk hauliers but along with added complications with paperwork/invoicing…
pierrot 14:
There have been loads and loads and loads of comments in past posts of how and why cabotage is happening in the UK and how it’s destroying the industry for UK hauliers. Well now the chickens are coming home to roost, the rules are coming that will stop a UK haulier going to deliver in F,B,D,NL etc. and not be allowed to load in that country to deliver within the EU27 but can ONLY load to return to the UK or come home EMPTY!
Now, this will be reciprocal, a foreign truck from the EU27 will come to deliver to the UK and will ONLY be allowed to load goods to return to the EU27, not where he loaded but to any member state within the EU. They will not be allowed to deliver, let’s say in Luton, run up to Birmingham for a load to go to Manchester, tip and run to Liverpool collect a load for somewhere else within the UK then run to somewhere else to load and return home to where he came from, within the EU!!!
Why?
Who is going to police it? Your local PCSO or HATO
We will be sat round the table in the drivers section of Watford Gap saying, “chaps, this just isn’t cricket!”
acd1202:
There is absolutely no mention of any permits in the EU paper other than the book, again you are confusing the EU with a country, it isn’t, and consequently loading between other states is not and never has been cabotage. The document is quite clear that cabotage will not be allowed either within the UK by EU hauliers or within any single EU state by UK hauliers, long since this was covered by the old Red book, there is no mention of its reintroduction. The permit is required for traffic to a third country for a trip involving the UK.
I do wish people would read thngs bofore passing comment.
Of course as you correctly say this paper is considering a “cliff edge” Brexit and negotiation may leave something looking totally different.
You are right in saying about cabotage, but I meant if no agreement is reached, brits will fall back to WTO rules and have to make agreements with different countries in the EU, in stead of getting a agreement with all of the EU, so I assume they will get different permits for different countries.
Tomorrow i will check what Turkish, Russian and/or Albanian trucks need.
As I understand it the countries in the EU cant make seperate deals outside it. That’s one of the reasons we’re leaving: so we can make a better deal with, say the USA than the EU as a block can make.
The countries in the EU can’t make seperate deals with us. We must deal with them as a block.
And they do have a lot if cheap hauliers looking for work. How many permits will we offered?
Of course we could refuse to allow EU trucks to load here. So with trucks running loaded only one way all the time, rates would almost double and so exports and imports would all fall etc etc.
I doubt it’ll get that bad. That’d be awful for everyone. But I doubt it’ll be a blessing for UK hauliers.
Sent from my GT-S7275R using Tapatalk
With due respect Franglais, that isn’t how permits work. In a situation where a haulier needs a permit to load in a country he would have needed the permit to enter in the first place, so only hauliers with the correct permits take on the original load; however I see no mention of single country permits being suggested, indeed they would be illegal under single market rules. The problem arises when a third country comes into the equation, then we come to this new multi trip permit. The result is that only those hauliers who are setup with the necessary can do the work, this coupled to a possible restriction on permit numbers, although it’s in nobody’s interest to artificially restrict trade in this way, can only result in upwards pressure in rates, the haulier who is on his toes and bags these permits early can only win by it.
The problem occurs when a change of plan unexpectedly requires a permit. In 1998 I had taken a load from UK to Poland, we had a reciprocal agreement with Poland and didn’t need permits, I always returned empty to Leuna to reload since at that time tanker loads ex Poland were very rare, however on tipping I was offered a reload to Holland, I accepted forgetting that neither the Dutch nor Germans had such an agreement and so a permit was necessary, getting through Stettin proved interesting, Maybe the bottom line to this is that where there’s a will, there’s a way; there is always some unattended trainee ready for his bed at 3 am who’s ripe for duping.
But in your example in 98, the EU in it’s current form didn’t exist. The type of different agreement Poland had with the UK and Germany then can’t exist now. Thats one the reasons we’re leaving, surely?
As for saying countries don’t do any thing that is financially bad for them? Well that’s ALL the Brexit arguments done ’ n ’ dusted then. [emoji3]
bald:
Have most of you actualy read this before commenting ?
This is a note stating that as the UK, with its withdrawal from the EU, when no agreement is reached before march 30th 209, becomes a third country and therefore should be treated as another third country, meaning you get the same rights in europe as for instance macedonia, albania, montenegro,…
It does state what british people will need if they want to work in europe. This is not different to what a lot of europeans had when they got letters from the governement, they have to leave the uk, or no longer have acces to help in the uk after 30.03.2019.
I read this not as scaremongering, but as a fact, everybody knew and agreed, when the UK triggerd brexit, it started the two year deadline.
I read this more as a sign that EU is prepairing for brexit ,making up guidelines for when no ageement is reached by march 2019, while Uk governement still doen’t know what kind of brexit it wants.
If you start about infighting, there is far more controverse in the UK than in the EU, the tories and labour themselves are split over hard or soft brexit.
“Undertakings established in the
Union that only have a transport manager resident in the United Kingdom can no
longer engage in the occupation of road transport operator within the EU-27.”
so a transport manager for a UK Co, operating in the EU will need to have an accommodation address in the EU.
Conor:
Expect even more scaremongering as the infighting in Brussels about who is paying for the black hole we leave as we walk out with 10% of the EU budget funding gets really heated up.
I’m not, and have never pretended to be a political animal, but that ^^^^^^ pretty much sums up what I perceive to be right at the heart of the matter. Every single thing else is merely political posturing or window dressing.
The EU gravy train keeps on running…takes more than a sprinkling of snow to stop that!
pierrot 14:
Friend of mine just sent me this. It’s not your usual garbage from the broadsheets and tabloids, it’s actually from
the European Commission.
Have a read, it’s quite an eye opener as to what could be coming Britain’s way after Brexit , for those that will be driving in Europe and it will affect Owner Drivers too regarding their CPC’s, Franglais if you’re still on a UK licence have a read and any others that live here in Europe.
Whatever comes our way, comes our way. I’m ready and willing to take it on the chin. You’re in France apparently, the cheese eating surrender monkey place. You have no right to lecture people born and raised and resident here. You’ve made your choice, I voted for mine.
pierrot 14:
Friend of mine just sent me this. It’s not your usual garbage from the broadsheets and tabloids, it’s actually from
the European Commission.
Have a read, it’s quite an eye opener as to what could be coming Britain’s way after Brexit , for those that will be driving in Europe and it will affect Owner Drivers too regarding their CPC’s, Franglais if you’re still on a UK licence have a read and any others that live here in Europe.
Whatever comes our way, comes our way. I’m ready and willing to take it on the chin. You’re in France apparently, the cheese eating surrender monkey place. You have no right to lecture people born and raised and resident here. You’ve made your choice, I voted for mine.
Hi TiredAndEmotional, Could you point out please in the post you quoted from pierrot14 where he has lectured. I’ve read it thru a few times but all I can see is a simple sharing of information. What am I missing? Thanks.
acd1202:
With due respect Franglais, that isn’t how permits work. In a situation where a haulier needs a permit to load in a country he would have needed the permit to enter in the first place, so only hauliers with the correct permits take on the original load; however I see no mention of single country permits being suggested, indeed they would be illegal under single market rules. The problem arises when a third country comes into the equation, then we come to this new multi trip permit. The result is that only those hauliers who are setup with the necessary can do the work, this coupled to a possible restriction on permit numbers, although it’s in nobody’s interest to artificially restrict trade in this way, can only result in upwards pressure in rates, the haulier who is on his toes and bags these permits early can only win by it.
The problem occurs when a change of plan unexpectedly requires a permit. In 1998 I had taken a load from UK to Poland, we had a reciprocal agreement with Poland and didn’t need permits, I always returned empty to Leuna to reload since at that time tanker loads ex Poland were very rare, however on tipping I was offered a reload to Holland, I accepted forgetting that neither the Dutch nor Germans had such an agreement and so a permit was necessary, getting through Stettin proved interesting, Maybe the bottom line to this is that where there’s a will, there’s a way; there is always some unattended trainee ready for his bed at 3 am who’s ripe for duping.
You are right according permits, I just checked and a third country haulier needs a permit to do transport to and from the EU.
So let’s say a Turkish transport company has a load from Turkey to Belgium, he will need, besides his own Turkish permit a Belgium permit. If this haulier wants to reload in Germany for Turkey, he will need an additional German permit, as he can not load in Germany on his Belgian permit.
He is not allowed to do any transport between the different EU countries (This is what I meant but what I mistakenly called cabotage earlier).
Transit permits for the different EU countries are not necessary.
The number of permits for each country are limited, meaning Turkey has a certain number of german, belgian, french permits etc…
So if no agreement is reached before march 30 th 2019 deadline, the British will fall back to this scenario.
Optimum:
“Undertakings established in the
Union that only have a transport manager resident in the United Kingdom can no
longer engage in the occupation of road transport operator within the EU-27.”
so a transport manager for a UK Co, operating in the EU will need to have an accommodation address in the EU.
If I read this right, it concerns a EU haulier who only has a licensed English transport manager, will need a EU transport manager. (as his british license would no longer be valid for the EU)
For UK hauliers, as they no longer would be part of the union, there would be no change.
The UK haulier will still be able to operate in the EU, if he has all the permits.
pierrot 14:
Friend of mine just sent me this. It’s not your usual garbage from the broadsheets and tabloids, it’s actually from
the European Commission.
Have a read, it’s quite an eye opener as to what could be coming Britain’s way after Brexit , for those that will be driving in Europe and it will affect Owner Drivers too regarding their CPC’s, Franglais if you’re still on a UK licence have a read and any others that live here in Europe.
Whatever comes our way, comes our way. I’m ready and willing to take it on the chin. You’re in France apparently, the cheese eating surrender monkey place. You have no right to lecture people born and raised and resident here. You’ve made your choice, I voted for mine.
Hi TiredAndEmotional, Could you point out please in the post you quoted from pierrot14 where he has lectured. I’ve read it thru a few times but all I can see is a simple sharing of information. What am I missing? Thanks.
