There was a big operation going on this morning at Blackwall on the southern end of the tunnel in the check point and they had the curtains open on every curtainsider in the check point.
bazza123:
G6Bob:
I’d need the VOSA man to help me with this lot, most of the boxes are below the bottom strap railWhat have you got in them boxes? Couldn’t most of that squeeze onto a couple of pallets? Seems a waste of space.
Yeah mate, a complete waste of space, and when I got to the other end trying to find space for 14 pallets was a nightmare, could easily have been condensed onto 4 maybe 5 pallets. I just put it down to warehouse having a laugh. The truck was full to the back doors with cages and pallets on the way back down, first time I’ve ever been heavier after tipping lol
shep532:
As for those that say “How do you secure a pallet when the straps will damage it” … simple - you can’t. it hasn’t been packed for transport in that kind of vehicle. Stick it a box and VOSA won’t be interested (unless it gets out). The issue is that we try to carry a multitude of different items in curtains when they really aren’t suitable. if you wouldn’t take it on a flat bed then it’s no good in a curtain. The sooner people get that idea in their heads the better.
What you’re basically saying here is that curtainsiders aren’t suitable for mixed palletised freight, such as that carried safely and without drama or incident by, ooh, 90% of night trunkers. And at least six large pallet networks, all indirectly employing hundreds of drivers, all move such freight on apparently unsuitable vehicles night after night after night. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but it would seem to indicate that this sort of load is not automatically unsafe or insecure.
Rhythm Thief:
shep532:
As for those that say “How do you secure a pallet when the straps will damage it” … simple - you can’t. it hasn’t been packed for transport in that kind of vehicle. Stick it a box and VOSA won’t be interested (unless it gets out). The issue is that we try to carry a multitude of different items in curtains when they really aren’t suitable. if you wouldn’t take it on a flat bed then it’s no good in a curtain. The sooner people get that idea in their heads the better.What you’re basically saying here is that curtainsiders aren’t suitable for mixed palletised freight, such as that carried safely and without drama or incident by, ooh, 90% of night trunkers. And at least six large pallet networks, all indirectly employing hundreds of drivers, all move such freight on apparently unsuitable vehicles night after night after night. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but it would seem to indicate that this sort of load is not automatically unsafe or insecure.
you have to remember the curtains are for one thing and one thing only … to protect the load from the weather …
its basically an easy sheet flatbed the only difference is over time drivers have become complacent " I cant see it its safe " Been there done it and yes although it says LOAD bearing I have still seen a 5 ton metal press slide through the curtain and also a few ton of flat steel sprawled across 2 lanes of the m27…
But a five tonne metal press or two tonnes of sheet steel is an obvious candidate for strapping down properly. I’m not talking about stuff like that … I wouldn’t move a trailer across the yard without strapping that sort of thing down. What I’m on about is the sort of stuff that most night trunkers move night after night after night, with not a ratchet strap in sight and with no sniff of an incident. Pallets of aerosol cans or jars of jam, well wrapped in shrink wrap and properly stacked. Pallets with boxes of crisps on, or unwieldy stacks of cat toys, all of which I shifted last night. How can that stuff possibly require strapping with a ratchet strap in any sane world?
Rhythm Thief:
shep532:
As for those that say “How do you secure a pallet when the straps will damage it” … simple - you can’t. it hasn’t been packed for transport in that kind of vehicle. Stick it a box and VOSA won’t be interested (unless it gets out). The issue is that we try to carry a multitude of different items in curtains when they really aren’t suitable. if you wouldn’t take it on a flat bed then it’s no good in a curtain. The sooner people get that idea in their heads the better.What you’re basically saying here is that curtainsiders aren’t suitable for mixed palletised freight, such as that carried safely and without drama or incident by, ooh, 90% of night trunkers. And at least six large pallet networks, all indirectly employing hundreds of drivers, all move such freight on apparently unsuitable vehicles night after night after night. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, but it would seem to indicate that this sort of load is not automatically unsafe or insecure.
Just because 90% of night trunkers are doing it this way it doesn’t make it the best way - just the easiest and cheapest. There are loads of curtainsided trailers made in Europe that could safely carry these kind of pallets by utilising containment. They have multiple movable bulkheads, side bars, loads of lashing points etc and can generally be configured to suit most loads. In the UK it seems we just buy basic bog standard lightweight curtainsiders.
I reckon its the difference between a free Tesco carrier bag and a ‘bag for life’ … the free one is great until you put too much or the wrong stuff inside. Of course a decent BOX would be even better.
I’ve done pallet network work running a DD trailer or two between the hub and our depot. Some of the pallets collected were completely unfit for travel and the weight/size/shape was ridiculous in some of them. In most cases with a decent driver there wasn’t a problem but we had a few with ‘not decent’ driving where pallets arrived back at the depot leaning on the curtains or sprawled across the deck. These presented safety issues for the warehouse staff unloading it - then further issues for onward delivery. A lot of the time the driver blamed another road user who pulled out or braked sharply etc … maybe a good driver wouldn’t have been caught out by these other road users - maybe they were just unlucky.
The issue isn’t just one of whether the load will get out onto the road, it is also the danger at the unloading point when pallets have shifted etc. One of the biggest concerns is the safety of unloaders or drivers when trying to sort a shifted load. These are the incidents you don’t usually hear about but are going on all the time. I suppose you could call them indirect results of an inadequately secured load. I for one have certainly had to climb up onto a trailer to try to sort something that had shifted - which puts me in danger. It would have been easier to stop it shifting before it shifted.
Also - how many hauliers are paying out for damaged stock? Stuff that shifted during transit?
Unfortunately we cannot change the way the Construction & Use regulations have been written and most curtain sided vehicles on the road are breaking the law. The latest idea with VOSA is to try to prevent incidents before they happen rather than wait for them to happen and then throw the book at those involved. Makes sense to me.
It seems VOSA have for some reason chosen 400kg as the upper limit for internal straps. So they have said a 400kg pallet can be CONTAINED by an internal strap AND the curtain - I don’t agree but there ya go. Therefore any pallet over 400kg will need RESTRAINING or alternatively CONTAINING with something stronger than a standard curtain and internal straps.
It doesn’t help that in Europe there is a minimum standard for body construction - BS EN 12642. In the UK a body can be made of balsa wood and tissue paper, there are no minimum standards
Its quite easy really. Those who continue as they always have will either be OK or get a £100 penalty and a PG9 if stopped. Those who ask whether or not VOSA can make you open the doors/curtains - no they can’t. They just issue a PG9 until you let them satisfy their requirements for checking your load. As somebody already said - VOSA have the final (expensive) word.
Rhythm Thief:
But a five tonne metal press or two tonnes of sheet steel is an obvious candidate for strapping down properly. I’m not talking about stuff like that … I wouldn’t move a trailer across the yard without strapping that sort of thing down. What I’m on about is the sort of stuff that most night trunkers move night after night after night, with not a ratchet strap in sight and with no sniff of an incident. Pallets of aerosol cans or jars of jam, well wrapped in shrink wrap and properly stacked. Pallets with boxes of crisps on, or unwieldy stacks of cat toys, all of which I shifted last night. How can that stuff possibly require strapping with a ratchet strap in any sane world?
I agree completely regarding your completely regarding your lightweight well stacked and wrapped pallets. A curtainsider with internal straps should contain those quite well but may not as it hasn’t been tested or built to a minimum standard.
Get a trailer built to BS EN 12642-XL and it’ll tell you what it can contain and in what circumstances.
I would hazard a guess most curtains running to the hubs are not built to a minimum standard which makes them a flat with weather protection.
Would you carry your load on a flat?
Rhythm Thief:
But a five tonne metal press or two tonnes of sheet steel is an obvious candidate for strapping down properly. I’m not talking about stuff like that … I wouldn’t move a trailer across the yard without strapping that sort of thing down. What I’m on about is the sort of stuff that most night trunkers move night after night after night, with not a ratchet strap in sight and with no sniff of an incident. Pallets of aerosol cans or jars of jam, well wrapped in shrink wrap and properly stacked. Pallets with boxes of crisps on, or unwieldy stacks of cat toys, all of which I shifted last night. How can that stuff possibly require strapping with a ratchet strap in any sane world?
I’m just pointing out what you said and I quote
Rhythm Thief wrote:The trailers I pull have a little badge on the curtains saying they’re load bearing up to the full max vehicle weight
.
so your making a distinct contradiction to your own reasoning .
I’m just stating your own contradiction.
I’m not arguing the fact that some low weight loads wouldn’t need much to restrain them.
Lets get away from the Ratchet Strap word and talk standard internal fitted restraint’s that aren’t ratchet type anyway.
nick2008:
Lets get away from the Ratchet Strap word and talk standard internal fitted restraint’s that aren’t ratchet type anyway.
Internal straps are only good for 400kg, above which you have to use other forms of restraints, ie ratchets.
shep532:
Get a trailer built to BS EN 12642-XL and it’ll tell you what it can contain and in what circumstances.
Most operators won’t buy certified trailers, they are more expensive. I am all for the UK accepting the EU standard and get rid of all the shoddy curtainsiders on the roads now, that would standardise the industry and would make it a lot easier for us drivers to have uniform equipment making securing loads that much easier, however I don’t see that happening.
SteveBarnsleytrucker:
You can refuse to open the curtains or back doors as far as I’m aware.
You sure can, just be ready for a GV9 and a stick of chalk because you are done for the day.
wheelnutt:
nick2008:
Lets get away from the Ratchet Strap word and talk standard internal fitted restraint’s that aren’t ratchet type anyway.Internal straps are only good for 400kg, above which you have to use other forms of restraints, ie ratchets.
but he’s (Rhythm Thief) is in general talking about 2 things
Normal loads that don’t need restraining ( anything an everything can move)
and the fact that loadbearing curtains will hold the weight of the max vehicle load in the vehicle…(which we know it wont well not all the time )
nick2008:
but he’s (Rhythm Thief) is in general talking about 2 things
Normal loads that don’t need restraining ( anything an everything can move)
and the fact that loadbearing curtains will hold the weight of the max vehicle load in the vehicle…(which we know it wont well not all the time )
I agree with you 100%
I’m aware of fines and prohibitions if the DVSA find an unsecured load, but do we really get 3 points on our licenses? I’ve not heard that one before.
ezydriver:
I’m aware of fines and prohibitions if the DVSA find an unsecured load, but do we really get 3 points on our licenses? I’ve not heard that one before.
gov.uk/penalty-points-endor … lty-points
scroll to
Construction and use offences
These codes must stay on a driving licence for 4 years from the date of the offence.
CU50 Causing or likely to cause danger by reason of load or passengers 3
This is pure insanity. I do 3 loads of bulk paper per night which is already an 11 hour shift, and it’s salaried, not hourly. Strapping 3 full loads would put 2-3 hours on to this. In 10 years of paper haulage I’ve never even had a pallet go over, yet alone burst through the curtains.
Time to look for a job on box trailers or tankers I think.
nick2008:
wheelnutt:
nick2008:
Lets get away from the Ratchet Strap word and talk standard internal fitted restraint’s that aren’t ratchet type anyway.Internal straps are only good for 400kg, above which you have to use other forms of restraints, ie ratchets.
but he’s (Rhythm Thief) is in general talking about 2 things
Normal loads that don’t need restraining ( anything an everything can move)
and the fact that loadbearing curtains will hold the weight of the max vehicle load in the vehicle…(which we know it wont well not all the time )
Actually, what I was saying is that the vast majority of us, night after night after night, carry unsecured pallets on “normal” curtainsiders and have done for years. Most of the people on here will have taken full loads in a curtainsider without strapping anything down, if not recently then certainly in the past. Some (like me) will even have shifted palletised freight on a flat with nothing but a sheet and a length of blue rope holding everything on. My point is, if this presents a genuine danger why is it that we’re not reading about shed loads and motorways blocked by pallets every single night?
I don’t believe road safety is served by instructing drivers to blindly strap everything without reference to whether it actually needs restraining or not. I cross strap stuff that’s likely to fall over if it’s unrestrained, I throw a ratchet strap over stuff like bundles of steel rods or machinery and when I open the curtains I undo all the buckles first then stand out of the way at the front of the trailer when I undo the tension on the ratchet, just in case anything falls off.
Shep532 made the point that:
I’ve done pallet network work running a DD trailer or two between the hub and our depot. Some of the pallets collected were completely unfit for travel and the weight/size/shape was ridiculous in some of them. In most cases with a decent driver there wasn’t a problem but we had a few with ‘not decent’ driving where pallets arrived back at the depot leaning on the curtains or sprawled across the deck. These presented safety issues for the warehouse staff unloading it - then further issues for onward delivery. A lot of the time the driver blamed another road user who pulled out or braked sharply etc … maybe a good driver wouldn’t have been caught out by these other road users - maybe they were just unlucky.
and I think that’s spot on. I also think that the “strap everything” mentality is gradually eroding driving skills as many people seem to think that once stuff is strapped on, they can drive how they like. Ultimately, I think that if I’m responsible enough to be held responsible for load security, then I’m responsible enough to decide what is and isn’t secure, just as we always used to be. That’s how it should be, instead of having DVSA operators stand by and watch a driver destroying 26 pallets of bleach with ratchet straps.
I recently passed my TM cpc and they made a big noise about internal security of loads. Has to be strong enough to restrain 100% in a forward movement and 50% sideways.
We all know what the speed limits are in various places but most of us choose at some point to ignore them - I certainly do when out on the bike. However - in doing so I also know the consequences when/if I get caught. Having attended two speed awareness courses so far I have been lucky.
I do not agree with some speed limits but being a generally law abiding ‘roll over and do as they say’ type chap I play along.
Load security is no different. We can all choose to play along or not and because of threads like this we all know the consequences if we don’t and we get caught.
The problem is that with speed limits, in most cases we can identify when and where we can bend the rules and if we are observant we can slow down and evade detection (that’s what it’s all about isn’t it?). With an unsecured load■■? Well you’re not gonna be able to stop and secure it when you see VOSA on the horizon so surely it’s better to be prepared?
Also - as pointed out already by others, ultimately in just the wrong circumstances it just could be prison time if your load wasn’t secured. (is it 14 years for death by dangerous driving?)
The ones I feel sorry for are those drivers I meet who are given no load securing equipment/advice/training etc at all. They will cop for a £100 GFP yet it is out of their hands. Those employers need dealing with. It’s one thing a driver using his wisdom/experience/skill/knowledge/ignorance to choose not to secure the load even though he has the means to … it’s another not to be given the basic equipment (including the right vehicle) in the first place.
In the last few weeks I came across an ADR driver carrying 24 (might have been 26) IBCs of acid in a standard curtain sided trailer with NOTHING securing the load. He had nothing. Some of the trailers had internals and some didn’t. This was standard practice in his company. Now that can’t be right can it? DIESEL DAVE - what does ADR reg’s say about securing a load■■?
In total agreement shep… as I have said if a driver has not been given adequate or correct equipment the employer should be given the harsher penalty even more so if it can be shown that the driver was pressured to commit the offence.
As for your other point…
cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sen … s_driving/
Nature of offence: Level 1
The most serious offences encompassing driving that involved a deliberate decision to ignore (or a flagrant disregard for) the rules of the road and an apparent disregard for the great danger being caused to othersStarting point: 8 years custody
Sentencing range: 7-14 years custodyNature of offence: Level 2
Driving that created a substantial risk of dangerStarting point: 5 years custody
Sentencing range: 4-7 years custodyNature of offence: Level 3
Driving that created a significant risk of danger[where the driving is markedly less culpable than for this level, reference should be made to the starting point and range for the most serious level of causing death by careless driving]
Starting point: 3 years custody
Sentencing range: 2-5 years custody