robroy:
Don’t back him into a corner ffs or we’ll be getting pages and pages about Thatcher, capitalism, the EU policies on economic markets and James [zb] Callaghan.
but in answer when I was O/D all mileage was plus VAT, the only way I reckon you could make an owner driver work is either flag out to Bulgaria or the likes (sure someone had a thread on here not too long ago), or go via someone like maritime where you buy the truck and they provide the work (no work no payment of the truck). expect long days, not a great deal jan/feb.
europleb:
Anyone starting a business where the customer tells you what he"s going to pay you wants their head examaning
In an ideal world i would agree, sadly we dont live in one and the customer will usulally get the job done for what hes willing to pay and not what the job should pay
europleb:
Anyone starting a business where the customer tells you what he"s going to pay you wants their head examaning
In an ideal world i would agree, sadly we dont live in one and the customer will usulally get the job done for what hes willing to pay and not what the job should pay
My point is my bathroom company quoted me £11,000 to install the spec and fittings that I wanted.it wasn’t a case of this is what I want and I’m paying £7500.the kebab shop sets his prices as does the fish mounger or window cleaner…until these issues are addressed you will always struggle to make any money in our industry
chaversdad:
In an ideal world i would agree, sadly we dont live in one and the customer will usulally get the job done for what hes willing to pay and not what the job should pay
My point is my bathroom company quoted me £11,000 to install the spec and fittings that I wanted.it wasn’t a case of this is what I want and I’m paying £7500.the kebab shop sets his prices as does the fish mounger or window cleaner…until these issues are addressed you will always struggle to make any money in our industry
The difference being that those examples are the final link in the retail/services chain.While most owner drivers are at the lower end of the sub contract scale.Just like farmers and the fishing industry doesn’t get the price for their products which the customer pays in the supermarket or fishmonger.Or for that matter possibly the bath room installation sub contractor.Especially when you factor the issue of cheap foreign competition into the equation.In which case the Brit bathroom installation subby is probably complaining jut as much about the competition driving down the price as the owner driver is.
Added to which is the issue of a regime which is deliberately making road transport less economically viable to shift freight from road to rail.Which is why the road fuel taxation issue is mostly the deal breaker in that regard.
I’ve never done traction work or pulled for another transport company, as they take their share first before you get yours…
I’m Belgian based, so different tax laws etc…
If you’re good at ‘Keeping your house in order’ & can deal with stressful situations, then go for it. You will also need to be able to start financially ( down payments for truck & trailer O’ licence etc…).
kr79:
Most business to business costs are excluding VAT be that as an owner driver subbing for a bigger haulier or a newsagent buying his stock at mackro
‘If’ that is guaranteed then that would make that + or - £1 per mile rate look ( a lot ) more viable bearing in mind that VAT is charged on both the cost + duty price in the case of fuel.
While making that inability to raise the start up capital even more of an unlucky break in my case.
Geoffo:
I’ve never done traction work or pulled for another transport company, as they take their share first before you get yours.
Going by the usual advertised rates where is the problem assuming fuel costs - VAT .While the aim of being an owner driver is to make a decent wage with the advantages of being your own guvnor and choosing type of work.Not make enough profit to start up a logistics empire.
kr79:
Most business to business costs are excluding VAT be that as an owner driver subbing for a bigger haulier or a newsagent buying his stock at mackro
‘If’ that is guaranteed then that would make that + or - £1 per mile rate look ( a lot ) more viable bearing in mind that VAT is charged on both the cost + duty price in the case of fuel.
While making that inability to raise the start up capital even more of an unlucky break in my case.
I still find it unbelievable you assumed the advertised rates included vat
kr79:
Most business to business costs are excluding VAT be that as an owner driver subbing for a bigger haulier or a newsagent buying his stock at mackro
‘If’ that is guaranteed then that would make that + or - £1 per mile rate look ( a lot ) more viable bearing in mind that VAT is charged on both the cost + duty price in the case of fuel.
While making that inability to raise the start up capital even more of an unlucky break in my case.
I still find it unbelievable you assumed the advertised rates included vat
To be fair ‘if’ it hadn’t have been for a half hearted attempt at establishing the costs v returns in the job,because at ‘that’ point in time my efforts were concentrated more on trying to find the required start up funds,I obviously ‘would’ have pushed the question further when dealing with prospective work providers, having raised the funds.Having said that I think that my pessimistic worse case view of the rates being offered could only have been considered a good thing bearing in mind the financial responsibilities.
As for advertised rates there are plenty of trade transactions in other industries like building/construction being stated as + VAT for the avoidance of any doubt.
My god there’s some ■■■■■■■■ being spouted on here!
VAT registration is a must, regardless of turnover, you pay VAT on almost everything and it’s refundable on business to business transactions, why would you pay an extra 20% that you don’t need to? VAT doesn’t even figure in any calculations you should be making when doing your calculations, you work it all out nett as that’s what you earn and that’s what you pay out when all is said and done. If you only invoice a foreign company where no VAT is charged you will get a cheque of the VAT man, but all that does is restore your outgoings to nett VAT status, you never lose or make money from the deal, unless you’re doing something illegal.
Opinions are useless unless backed up by facts and experience, there’s a saying I’m fond of that says opinions are like arse holes, everyone has one… and we all know what comes out of an arse hole don’t we…
Should you or shouldn’t you become an owner operator?
That all depends, first is it possible to get a lorry, get an O licence and satisfy all the requirements necessary to keep it, get work and get paid for doing it before you run out of money?
If you can, will you make enough money to survive in business and live to a standard you are comfortable with?
If you can, then do it, there are lots of different business models that will allow you to do that, everyone will tell you there ways are the best, but only you can decide which is right for you.
newmercman:
My god there’s some ■■■■■■■■ being spouted on here!
VAT registration is a must, regardless of turnover, you pay VAT on almost everything and it’s refundable on business to business transactions, why would you pay an extra 20% that you don’t need to? VAT doesn’t even figure in any calculations you should be making when doing your calculations, you work it all out nett as that’s what you earn and that’s what you pay out when all is said and done. If you only invoice a foreign company where no VAT is charged you will get a cheque of the VAT man, but all that does is restore your outgoings to nett VAT status, you never lose or make money from the deal, unless you’re doing something illegal.
VAT on costs like fuel is only refundable at each stage that it’s passed on up the line to the eventual end customer.
Assuming that link is broken anywhere in the chain at any stage by someone saying that they’ll discount the price ‘by the equivalent amount of’ the VAT charge then that obviously feeds back down the chain.Which in this case obviously potentially affects the rate being offered v fuel costs etc equation.
IE it’s possible and legal for a rate to be offered on the basis of it being ‘the equivalent of’ and ‘effectively’ ‘inclusive’ of VAT as opposed to + VAT.Thereby making the rate v fuel cost equation ‘effectively’ a case of the rate being offered - the full pump price as opposed to the pump price - VAT.In just the same way that I can go into a shop as a retail end user customer and be given a ‘discount’ which ‘cancels out’ the exact amount of the VAT levied on the product.IE the taxman still gets his VAT but the poor supplier/sub contractor at the bottom of the chain gets hit with a 20% haircut on the ‘nett’ figure.
On that note,as I said, ‘if’ I was an owner driver I’d have preferred to see the rate offered being stated as + VAT for the removal of all doubt.That issue being the only reason for my confusion regards rates v fuel costs.
The rate is always plus VAT, fuel is invoiced at nett plus VAT. This is the problem with people with no business experience giving business advice.
Every single post like this goes the same way and over comicates things, when the basics are covered by the last couple of paragraphs of my earlier post.
Arguing over the little things comes much later. Take a look back through Harry Monk’s owner operator thread, he and I are at totally different ends of the spectrum and as I stated, in my opinion his way is not the way I would do things, yet he’s still going out and earning a living, does that make me wrong? No, it doesn’t make HM right either, it just goes to show that there are many ways to skin a cat…
Anybody considering become an owner operator needs to concentrate on the basics first and VAT isn’t one of them.
welshgooner:
by newmercman » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:01 pm
The rate is always plus VAT, fuel is invoiced at nett plus VAT. This is the problem with people with no business experience giving business advice.
Spot On " newmercman "
Unless you are or have been an Owner Driver you can’t real give business advice,
you don’t learn this in a classroom you learn it in the real world on the job " Carryfast "
That’s fair enough being that,as I’ve said,I never went any further than a quick over view of rates being offered.While having to clear the start up capital hurdle first which stopped me unfortunately.
Having said that,as I said,I ‘would have’ preferred it and probably would have requested that any rate figure being offered actually stated + VAT for the removal of all doubt.Being that in terms of fuel costs at least it arguably makes the difference between the job being economically viable or not.
Although as fuel costs stand,even with the VAT rebate,the fuel cost v potential revenue equation is still critical at close enough to half the revenue to cause a financial headache to even establised operations let alone a new start.Which was my main point.
