AndrewG:
switchlogic:
muckles:
AndrewG:
It was a hypothetical example of running out of fuel versus running the batteries flat but you missed that .
Driving in Europe i know exactly how many Tesla chargers there are. It may be happening and you very obviously are all for it and short distance/local work there may be a market for it but with massive battery weight for long haul heavy weight trucks it’ll never happen…‘till the cows come home’. Long haul you could actually add hours onto a journey time, i can do 3000km without refuelling, Thats around another 4hrs charging time possibly going into another days driving or…possibly going into another week if running hrs to the max.
But you can’t do 3000kms in a day, so you have to stop somewhere either for daily rest or for a break or while your truck is being loaded and unloaded, it quite likely with the correct infrastructure in place at one of these points you’ll be able to recharge your truck each day without adding time to your day.
He clearly does 3,000km in one hit without stopping… 
Youve missed my point again 
Of course i have to stop, but for breaks only! I dont have to recharge/ refuel which is very obviously something thats going to crop up many times with electric. As for the infrastructure, which RDC’s for instance do you actually know that has the drivers welfare/ his haulage company close to their heart? Do you honestly believe these RDC’s and various other tipping points are going to allow truck charging on their premises while they wait/tip?? Of course not, they want the goods and for the driver to get out of their yard as soon as.
As for long haul, company i sub for is expanding and Norway will soon be on the list, beats me where you get this idea that trucks will only go as far as their own border?? Maybe on the relative little island that is the UK but certainly not the rest of Europe. Long haul across the continent is still a massive industry and its not shrinking anytime soon.
I have the feeling you have the impression im a sort of tech dinosaur, far from it. My Villa is virtually self powered, 26 solar roof panels and another 36 ground floor panels in its own compound charge big capacity li ion batteries that power everything from the blinds/ garage door/ car turntable/ LED lighting plus heat all the hot water you’ll ever need. Most of the time everythings up to capacity and its throwing it back into the grid. Everythings energy A+++ rated and as green as is possible with the current technology, im all for saving the planet/whale and for ever else needs rescuing but my own view on electric trucks isnt a positive one thats all…
Oh… nearly forgot…
I think youre making one good point, Andrew, and missing one. Too heavy ? Quite possibly, as it seems Tesla have said nowt, and if it was a light truck, theyd surely be shouting about it.
Refuelling? If the first units are sold to own account users itll be easy to set charging points on loading bays at depots. And at half an hour to charge for 700km, how many depots tip and load quicker than that? If and when they roll out, and need charging on service areas, plug em in and wander off for your coffee or whatever. No need to stand there with a dripping black hose in your hand. Again 30 mins after 700km ain`t too bad is it?
Refuelling/charging I don`t see as a problem.
Weight seems to be the problem.
Carryfast:
Franglais:
Carryfast:
You do understand the difference between mechanical type KERS v electrical.Or obviously not.So as I said why no demand for existing mechanical KERS type technology that’s compatible with ICE powered vehicles ?.
As I said a load of gullible people rushing like turkeys voting for Christmas based on comparing the apples of untaxed electricity costs and possibly energy recovery advantages.Which electric needs to even get close to the costs of the oranges of the taxed fuel used by ICE powered vehicles.Also customers obviously having over looked the fact that KERS can be similarly applied to ICE powered vehicles.Or probably more like the costs of the technology outweigh the real world fuel consumption benefits it provides in it certainly not more than halving the fuel consumption ?.
Which then leaves the weight penalty and cost of the battery technology not to mention being tied to the vehicle supplier for fuelling requirements and obvious eventual implications of that captive market regarding costs.On that note 2 kwh per mile still sounds like a joke to me with or without KERS.Then you can obviously add road fuel tax and the costs of the batteries to the 15p per kwh at present prices,even if that 2 kwh per mile figure was achievable in the real world.
KERS to be applicable to truck sized vehicles is pretty much a non starter. As you correctly say there is no demand for it because of its size weight considerations. To Battery energy (electric) storage would seem the way to go. As you say there are serious problems with battery weights and costs. Totally agree with you there. But if a vehicle already has a battery system why wouldnt you use regen?
If the vehicle supplier guarantees a price for energy costs, and you can make a profit using that price, whats not to like? If Tesla promise a price for electricity a company can make a plan. Who is guaranteeing the price of diesel for tomorrow? Let alone longer... Tax on electricity? Well no one knows whats in the next budget. (even Hammond?!) Could be zero tax on diesel and 1,000% tax on electricity? You can`t really make sweeping statements inferring some unknown tax at some unknown future point and retain credibility can you? We are where we are, and can only make guesses about the future. Especially concerning taxes!
Let’s get this right you’re moaning about the relatively small size and weight penalty of adding a mechanical KERS system to the drive line of conventional vehicles.But suddenly a bleedin great big mega expense battery pack etc is ok in the case of EV’s.
As for the fuel tax issue it’s obvious that they aren’t going to forego road fuel duty in the case of EV charging.Which is why no one is talking about the ability to fast charge or even charge an EV using a home charging system although smart metering is another obvious part of that agenda.With the added issue in this case of the charging network being dependent on the EV supplier and therefore a monopoly situation.What could possibly go wrong.
As it stands there’s probably no way that anyone is going to run a truck on the basis of 2 kwh per mile nor at the present of 15p per kwh priceelectricity to charge it.
While we do know that 9 mpg equates to around 5 kwh per mile at a cost of around 10p per kwh including relevant fuel taxes and without the addition of KERS.Which would obviously improve on those figures.On that note anyone jumping headlong into the expensive EV blind alley needs to at least do the maths first.
Solar energy is the game changer for these Semi trucks, Saudi Arabia has just tendered under 2 cents/kw and I read somewhere that Mexico has tendered lower figures than that 
that must be what Tesla are basing their figures on as they’re also a big player in the solar energy business. finance.yahoo.com/news/middle-e … 00210.html
lancpudn:
Carryfast:
As it stands there’s probably no way that anyone is going to run a truck on the basis of 2 kwh per mile nor at the present of 15p per kwh priceelectricity to charge it.
Solar energy is the game changer for these Semi trucks, Saudi Arabia has just tendered under 2 cents/kw and I read somewhere that Mexico has tendered lower figures than that that must be what Tesla are basing their figures on as they’re also a big player in the solar energy business. finance.yahoo.com/news/middle-e … 00210.html
It cost about 9p a litre to fill up in Saudi Arabia, by the time it gets to us it costs about £1.20/litre, most of that is tax, do you really think the Government isn’t going to increase taxes on Electrical vehicle charging to cover the loss of revenue from petrol and diesel?
AndieHyde:
So, on the subject of electric trucks, if I may draw your attention to another subject I am passionate about, dirtbikes.
These are available right now.
dirtrider.com/2017-ktm-free … impression
In short, they are not powerful enough,expensive, heavy and don’t have enough range.
I am not suggesting they will not get better, human nature demands improvement but right now.
It’s not a thing.
In 2010 they started the TT Zero on the IOM, in the first year the winning bike did it in just over 23 minutes at an average speed of 96mph,
this year the winning bike did it in 19 minutes at an average speed of 117mph.
The Formula E single seat series started in 2012 and it required the drivers to change cars mid race as they wouldn’t do the race distance, as of next year the cars will be able to complete a full race.
And as many car manufactures are now into it with some freedom to develop the cars, things will push on even faster, Porsche dropped it LMP1 racing to do it and Mercedes dropped out of DTM, so they have big budgets to invest on development.
AndrewG:
switchlogic:
muckles:
AndrewG:
It was a hypothetical example of running out of fuel versus running the batteries flat but you missed that .
Driving in Europe i know exactly how many Tesla chargers there are. It may be happening and you very obviously are all for it and short distance/local work there may be a market for it but with massive battery weight for long haul heavy weight trucks it’ll never happen…‘till the cows come home’. Long haul you could actually add hours onto a journey time, i can do 3000km without refuelling, Thats around another 4hrs charging time possibly going into another days driving or…possibly going into another week if running hrs to the max.
But you can’t do 3000kms in a day, so you have to stop somewhere either for daily rest or for a break or while your truck is being loaded and unloaded, it quite likely with the correct infrastructure in place at one of these points you’ll be able to recharge your truck each day without adding time to your day.
He clearly does 3,000km in one hit without stopping…
Youve missed my point again Of course i have to stop, but for breaks only! :
You only have breaks in 3000kms,
muckles:
lancpudn:
Carryfast:
As it stands there’s probably no way that anyone is going to run a truck on the basis of 2 kwh per mile nor at the present of 15p per kwh priceelectricity to charge it.
Solar energy is the game changer for these Semi trucks, Saudi Arabia has just tendered under 2 cents/kw and I read somewhere that Mexico has tendered lower figures than that that must be what Tesla are basing their figures on as they’re also a big player in the solar energy business. finance.yahoo.com/news/middle-e … 00210.html
It cost about 9p a litre to fill up in Saudi Arabia, by the time it gets to us it costs about £1.20/litre, most of that is tax, do you really think the Government isn’t going to increase taxes on Electrical vehicle charging to cover the loss of revenue from petrol and diesel?
Oh! I’m well aware of government taxation, they’d tax the bleedin’ air we breath if they could get away with it. I think there will have to be a seismic shift in taxation in the coming decade on how they will tax future energy needs.
lancpudn:
muckles:
lancpudn:
Carryfast:
As it stands there’s probably no way that anyone is going to run a truck on the basis of 2 kwh per mile nor at the present of 15p per kwh priceelectricity to charge it.
Solar energy is the game changer for these Semi trucks, Saudi Arabia has just tendered under 2 cents/kw and I read somewhere that Mexico has tendered lower figures than that that must be what Tesla are basing their figures on as they’re also a big player in the solar energy business. finance.yahoo.com/news/middle-e … 00210.html
It cost about 9p a litre to fill up in Saudi Arabia, by the time it gets to us it costs about £1.20/litre, most of that is tax, do you really think the Government isn’t going to increase taxes on Electrical vehicle charging to cover the loss of revenue from petrol and diesel?
Oh! I’m well aware of government taxation, they’d tax the bleedin’ air we breath if they could get away with it. I think there will have to be a seismic shift in taxation in the coming decade on how they will tax future energy needs.
So where would you suggest the Government gets the money it will lose from fossil fuel taxation?
So where would you suggest the Government gets the money it will lose from fossil fuel taxation?
[/quote]
Tough one! A blanket tax rise on electricity would be unfair as some people will not own electric vehicle transport, I dare say with a lot of the road network now ‘Smart motorway’ they can record journeys with ANPR and will introduce Tolls to recoup their tax loses !!!
lancpudn:
So where would you suggest the Government gets the money it will lose from fossil fuel taxation?
Tough one! A blanket tax rise on electricity would be unfair as some people will not own electric vehicle transport, I dare say with a lot of the road network now ‘Smart motorway’ they can record journeys with ANPR and will introduce Tolls to recoup their tax loses !!!
[/quote]
Yes it could be an option, but would still increase the running cost of the Electric trucks above what has been suggested. It is also a post pay system, so you have to get the money off people after they’ve used the service, where as fuel tax or tax on electricity is a pre pay system.
muckles:
lancpudn:
So where would you suggest the Government gets the money it will lose from fossil fuel taxation?
Tough one! A blanket tax rise on electricity would be unfair as some people will not own electric vehicle transport, I dare say with a lot of the road network now ‘Smart motorway’ they can record journeys with ANPR and will introduce Tolls to recoup their tax loses !!!
Yes it could be an option, but would still increase the running cost of the Electric trucks above what has been suggested. It is also a post pay system, so you have to get the money off people after they’ve used the service, where as fuel tax or tax on electricity is a pre pay system.
[/quote]
Automated satellite tracking of vehicles ? Running at rush hours costs more than off peak? Mileage dependent too? Different rates for loaded and empty vehicles? Less tax on a car with 4 passengers than one with just the driver?
And although I can see lots of problems at the moment, but start taxing jet fuel at the same rate as road fuel? “The polluter pays” doesnt seem to apply to the air industry does it? Guessing lots think "polluter pays" is a good idea, but wouldnt vote for dearer holidays!
lancpudn:
A blanket tax rise on electricity would be unfair as some people will not own electric vehicle transport, I dare say with a lot of the road network now ‘Smart motorway’ they can record journeys with ANPR and will introduce Tolls to recoup their tax loses !!!
How is it supposedly ‘fair’ to go on disproportionately taxing road users to provide services for others who pay nothing for them ?.Ironically a bit like the present situation of EV use being a similar tax dodge.So why not just put it all on income tax whether it’s petrol/diesel/or EV use ?.The result being the same either way in that electric is the worst possible option in terms of cost per kwh v fossil fuel in addition to the penalties involved in battery requirement.In which LPG fuelled ICE provides the best compromise and solution regarding supply,eco,and cost.At least until we can produce hydrogen more cost effectively.Again for ICE use.
Franglais:
muckles:
lancpudn:
Tough one! A blanket tax rise on electricity would be unfair as some people will not own electric vehicle transport, I dare say with a lot of the road network now ‘Smart motorway’ they can record journeys with ANPR and will introduce Tolls to recoup their tax loses !!!
Yes it could be an option, but would still increase the running cost of the Electric trucks above what has been suggested. It is also a post pay system, so you have to get the money off people after they’ve used the service, where as fuel tax or tax on electricity is a pre pay system.
Automated satellite tracking of vehicles ? Running at rush hours costs more than off peak? Mileage dependent too? Different rates for loaded and empty vehicles? Less tax on a car with 4 passengers than one with just the driver?
And although I can see lots of problems at the moment, but start taxing jet fuel at the same rate as road fuel? “The polluter pays” doesnt seem to apply to the air industry does it? Guessing lots think "polluter pays" is a good idea, but wouldnt vote for dearer holidays!
Road pricing was suggested a few years ago and dropped very quickly as very unpopular with voters, although like in other European countries I think it could happen for commercial vehicles.
Taxing the Aviation industry seems to be more of an international problem, than one of voters.
But despite Lancpudn’s zealot like enthusiasms for EV’s, it won’t produce the real change, we need to change the Economic system.
People say they want green policies that include EV’s, but think nothing of jetting off on holiday a couple of times a year.
They expect out of season fruit and veg to be in the shops and to be fresh, so it gets imported,
They say they want farm animals kept in high welfare standards, but then they buy cheap imported meat.
They want to buy cheap goods even though they are made half way across the World using cheap labour with working conditions that would be totally unacceptable in this country
and multi-national corporations close down smaller older factories and shift the entire production to a country that has lower costs and then exports the stuff back to the Countries that actually buy the goods.
Franglais:
“The polluter pays” doesnt seem to apply to the air industry does it? Guessing lots think "polluter pays" is a good idea, but wouldnt vote for dearer holidays!
If it’s all about polluter pays then by accepted definitions surely LPG let alone hydrogen fuelled ICE or EV road transport should pay less if any than air transport and diesel fuelled rail ?.
Which leaves the question of the definition of ‘pollution’ especially in the event of the potential risk of nuclear accidents including nuclear waste.In which case LPG fuelled ICE wins easily.
Make no mistake the same old pro rail anti road use bs will clearly still apply regardless of the type of fuel that road transport uses.
muckles:
Road pricing was suggested a few years ago and dropped very quickly as very unpopular with voters, although like in other European countries I think it could happen for commercial vehicles.
Taxing the Aviation industry seems to be more of an international problem, than one of voters.
But despite Lancpudn’s zealot like enthusiasms for EV’s, it won’t produce the real change, we need to change the Economic system.
People say they want green policies that include EV’s, but think nothing of jetting off on holiday a couple of times a year.
They expect out of season fruit and veg to be in the shops and to be fresh, so it gets imported,
They say they want farm animals kept in high welfare standards, but then they buy cheap imported meat.
They want to buy cheap goods even though they are made half way across the World using cheap labour with working conditions that would be totally unacceptable in this country
and multi-national corporations close down smaller older factories and shift the entire production to a country that has lower costs and then exports the stuff back to the Countries that actually buy the goods.
Yep all true.
People WANT schools, hospitals and roads. They VOTE for tax cuts.
Change the Economic System? Maybe we could learn from Zimbabwe ■■ Come the revolution !
muckles:
Road pricing was suggested a few years ago and dropped very quickly as very unpopular with voters, although like in other European countries I think it could happen for commercial vehicles.
Taxing the Aviation industry seems to be more of an international problem, than one of voters.
But despite Lancpudn’s zealot like enthusiasms for EV’s, it won’t produce the real change, we need to change the Economic system.
People say they want green policies that include EV’s, but think nothing of jetting off on holiday a couple of times a year.
They expect out of season fruit and veg to be in the shops and to be fresh, so it gets imported,
They say they want farm animals kept in high welfare standards, but then they buy cheap imported meat.
They want to buy cheap goods even though they are made half way across the World using cheap labour with working conditions that would be totally unacceptable in this country
and multi-national corporations close down smaller older factories and shift the entire production to a country that has lower costs and then exports the stuff back to the Countries that actually buy the goods.
Taxing the aviation industry is more about the fact that it would harm a massive sector of our own economy.From the aerospace industry to air transport operations like BA.IE it would be no problem to tax aviation fuel supplied here and to pull out of any agreements not allowing the taxing of aviation fuel left in aircraft tanks supplied from outside the country.Bearing in mind that aircraft are severely limited in the amounts of fuel they can land with safely anyway.
Make no mistake the whole agenda is all about political pecking orders of the preferred control freak transport options and self interest based on an irrational soviet type command viewpoint,in which road transport has always been seen as the one they least like and hit the most.Because it’s perceived as being all about the freedom of the open road for those who use it and therefore the antithesis of the control freaks’ thinking.Which explains why if they can’t tax it’s users off the road they’ll automate them out of existence.Together with a few scammers trying to make a few bob out of gullible road users who thing that EV’s are a way out of that. 
muckles:
Franglais:
muckles:
lancpudn:
Tough one! A blanket tax rise on electricity would be unfair as some people will not own electric vehicle transport, I dare say with a lot of the road network now ‘Smart motorway’ they can record journeys with ANPR and will introduce Tolls to recoup their tax loses !!!
Yes it could be an option, but would still increase the running cost of the Electric trucks above what has been suggested. It is also a post pay system, so you have to get the money off people after they’ve used the service, where as fuel tax or tax on electricity is a pre pay system.
Automated satellite tracking of vehicles ? Running at rush hours costs more than off peak? Mileage dependent too? Different rates for loaded and empty vehicles? Less tax on a car with 4 passengers than one with just the driver?
And although I can see lots of problems at the moment, but start taxing jet fuel at the same rate as road fuel? “The polluter pays” doesnt seem to apply to the air industry does it? Guessing lots think "polluter pays" is a good idea, but wouldnt vote for dearer holidays!
Road pricing was suggested a few years ago and dropped very quickly as very unpopular with voters, although like in other European countries I think it could happen for commercial vehicles.
Taxing the Aviation industry seems to be more of an international problem, than one of voters.
But despite Lancpudn’s zealot like enthusiasms for EV’s, it won’t produce the real change, we need to change the Economic system.
People say they want green policies that include EV’s, but think nothing of jetting off on holiday a couple of times a year.
They expect out of season fruit and veg to be in the shops and to be fresh, so it gets imported,
They say they want farm animals kept in high welfare standards, but then they buy cheap imported meat.
They want to buy cheap goods even though they are made half way across the World using cheap labour with working conditions that would be totally unacceptable in this country
and multi-national corporations close down smaller older factories and shift the entire production to a country that has lower costs and then exports the stuff back to the Countries that actually buy the goods.
I wouldn’t quite say Zealot but I do like the new tech that goes into these EV vehicles (mostly cars) and I do read a lot about it. Yep it will be a hot potato for any government to address the coming changes that’s for sure…Maybe the government of the day when the time comes will bring out a Dr Beeching character to sort it out like they did the steam trains in 1967!
I can see a lot of you are still hung up on batteries that need charging up from an external device.
With the leaps and bounds being made in battery technology within the next 5 years self charging batteries will appear common place, using a combination of light sensitivity and static electricity to charge a battery will make the need for stand alone chargers redundant.
Can you guess a good generator of static electricity, yep the vehicle itself.
Sure we’ve all had that leccy shock when exciting a vehicle or remember those antistatic strips hung from the back of cars.
Well boys and girls there will come a time when batteries will charge themselves up.
In fact in 10 years time the technology on this Tesla truck will look positively prehistoric.
Just guessin…
AndrewG:
Youve missed my point again Of course i have to stop, but for breaks only! I dont have to recharge/ refuel which is very obviously something thats going to crop up many times with electric.
.
As for long haul, company i sub for is expanding and Norway will soon be on the list, beats me where you get this idea that trucks will only go as far as their own border?? Maybe on the relative little island that is the UK but certainly not the rest of Europe.
For someone who accuses others of missing the point you do so all the time yourself. Why can’t you charge it during a break? Plug it in, go for dinner, return and hey presto you’ve 100% battery. But again as I said this isn’t being marketed at long haul as it DOESN’T HAVE A SLEEPER.
I didn’t say long haul international doesn’t exist, I do it myself, but just that 1. AGAIN, this isn’t a sleeper and 2. AGAIN even excluding long haul there’s a huge market for truck Like this & 3. Most trucks don’t cross borders, that’s just a fact
The moment your company can get the goods to Norway and wherever else cheaper than they do now they’ll take it
Dipper_Dave:
I can see a lot of you are still hung up on batteries that need charging up from an external device.
With the leaps and bounds being made in battery technology within the next 5 years self charging batteries will appear common place, using a combination of light sensitivity and static electricity to charge a battery will make the need for stand alone chargers redundant.
Can you guess a good generator of static electricity, yep the vehicle itself.
Sure we’ve all had that leccy shock when exciting a vehicle or remember those antistatic strips hung from the back of cars.
Well boys and girls there will come a time when batteries will charge themselves up.
In fact in 10 years time the technology on this Tesla truck will look positively prehistoric.
Just guessin…
Im glad to see youre still giving this problem the benefit of your thoughts Dipper.
Wasnt it you who came up with the concept of fitting windmill generators to the exterior of trucks to generate electricity as they move through the air? Having a roof mounted generator was genius, but getting Stobbies to road test it, may have been an error? Can you view this link please mate? They seem to have a good ecological idea here, but we need someone with your vision to adapt it for road use. [damninteresting.com/retired ... -aircraft/](https://www.damninteresting.com/retired/the-gravity-powered-aircraft/) Reckon you can do anything with that? Wouldnt having helium tanks on trucks counteract against the weight of the batteries they`re carrying somehow?
