I’ve got spoiled in that for the last number of years i’ve usually had one tractor and one trailer allocated to me, so you learn intimately how that vehicle will respond, if i had to drive a different lorry and different trailer type every day then i’d be every bit as bad as our newbies feeling their feet for the first time.
With maneuvering you never stop learning, or making ■■■■■ ups.
Waiting to hear if Bald Bloke’s trainee passed 
, and BB’s subsequent invitation to join the training team 
Franglais:
kcrussell25:
I am coming to the end of my 3rd week and the reversing is getting better, still not good though. I had 2 weeks with another driver and on my own this week. That was really helpful.How long did it take you guys to get good?
I spent 3 days trying to use mirrors like in test situation before sticking head out of the window which helps me no end
I`ll promise to let you know when I get good.
3 decades so far, and still room for improvement.
Thanks! I just want to get so I can get on the bay with just a shunt or 2 rather than 6! As much as anything so im not holding everyone else up
Juddian:
I’ve got spoiled in that for the last number of years i’ve usually had one tractor and one trailer allocated to me, so you learn intimately how that vehicle will respond, if i had to drive a different lorry and different trailer type every day then i’d be every bit as bad as our newbies feeling their feet for the first time.
With maneuvering you never stop learning, or making ■■■■■ ups.Waiting to hear if Bald Bloke’s trainee passed
He had his test/assessment last Monday but I’ve been on holiday for the last 9 days but back in Wednesday so I’ll try and find out for you. As for joining the training team I don’t mind helping out occasionally but that’s definitely as far as it’ll go and I can’t wait to get back out on my own again
bald bloke:
Juddian:
I’ve got spoiled in that for the last number of years i’ve usually had one tractor and one trailer allocated to me, so you learn intimately how that vehicle will respond, if i had to drive a different lorry and different trailer type every day then i’d be every bit as bad as our newbies feeling their feet for the first time.
With maneuvering you never stop learning, or making ■■■■■ ups.Waiting to hear if Bald Bloke’s trainee passed
He had his test/assessment last Monday but I’ve been on holiday for the last 9 days but back in Wednesday so I’ll try and find out for you. As for joining the training team I don’t mind helping out occasionally but that’s definitely as far as it’ll go and I can’t wait to get back out on my own again
Toppo, we’re all hoping for the best for the lad and for you , and also hoping the company reap their just rewards for putting some time money and effort into bringing their people on, not just in actual on the road results, but also it should help long term staff retention where people feel valued and generally appreciate if they have a good number.
Like you i wouldn’t want to be a full time trainer, i’d go bloody mad sitting beside someone displaying brakes to slow gears to go cobblers in a lorry, or not allowing the engine to warm up or cool down before and after working it hard 
Juddian:
bald bloke:
Juddian:
I’ve got spoiled in that for the last number of years i’ve usually had one tractor and one trailer allocated to me, so you learn intimately how that vehicle will respond, if i had to drive a different lorry and different trailer type every day then i’d be every bit as bad as our newbies feeling their feet for the first time.
With maneuvering you never stop learning, or making ■■■■■ ups.Waiting to hear if Bald Bloke’s trainee passed
He had his test/assessment last Monday but I’ve been on holiday for the last 9 days but back in Wednesday so I’ll try and find out for you. As for joining the training team I don’t mind helping out occasionally but that’s definitely as far as it’ll go and I can’t wait to get back out on my own again
Toppo, we’re all hoping for the best for the lad and for you
Like you i wouldn’t want to be a full time trainer, i’d go bloody mad sitting beside someone displaying brakes to slow gears to go cobblers in a lorry, or not allowing the engine to warm up or cool down before and after working it hard
It’ll be interesting to see how the young lady from the warehouse got on too as she was also a newbie and she was out with a driver on the afternoon shift. I know a couple of new drivers from the warehouse have had few knocks in their first few months but the company do seem very tolerant with them.
Juddian:
bald bloke:
Juddian:
I’ve got spoiled in that for the last number of years i’ve usually had one tractor and one trailer allocated to me, so you learn intimately how that vehicle will respond, if i had to drive a different lorry and different trailer type every day then i’d be every bit as bad as our newbies feeling their feet for the first time.
With maneuvering you never stop learning, or making ■■■■■ ups.Waiting to hear if Bald Bloke’s trainee passed
He had his test/assessment last Monday but I’ve been on holiday for the last 9 days but back in Wednesday so I’ll try and find out for you. As for joining the training team I don’t mind helping out occasionally but that’s definitely as far as it’ll go and I can’t wait to get back out on my own again
Toppo, we’re all hoping for the best for the lad and for you
Like you i wouldn’t want to be a full time trainer, i’d go bloody mad sitting beside someone displaying brakes to slow gears to go cobblers in a lorry, or not allowing the engine to warm up or cool down before and after working it hard
So if you don’t mind me asking how do you drive? I’m not being funny I mean it as a serious question
Fair question mate.
I drive as IMHO a lorry should be driven, using the auxilliary brake (exhauster if it hasn’t been specced with a proper retarder/Jake, most vehicles in this country arn’t properly specced) as the main brake at the correct revs in the correct gear for maximum ■■■■■■, going down through the gears manually to keep the exhaust brake in the correct rev band…you’ll notice on many modern vehicles the green band on the rev counter alters to a much higher rev band once you engage the exhauster.
My philosophy is gears to slow brakes to stop, if i’ve timed things right i won’t have to to use the footbrake at all whilst slowing up, and hopefully will be able to resume progress at a junction without ever coming to rest, if i have to stop then then plan is to only use the footbrake to bring the vehicle to a final halt, i use the exhauster as the primary brake and the footbrake to assist.
If you ever have a vehicle with a proper retarder or Jacob Brake then you’ll find the ■■■■■■ effort from the device to be around 2 to 4 times more effective than a normal exhauster, if you’ve driven a modern Volvo with the 3 stage retarder then you’ll know the sort of effort available by the better devices.
This driving isn’t taught any longer, though the vehicle makers continue to spend serious money providing auxilliary braking, so who’s right?
The reasons for driving like this are many.
Keeps the primary brakes cool for when needed in earnest, this is especially important in hilly areas.
Prevents wear by using the engine and gears as they were designed instead of wearing out brakes for no good reason.
Saves fuel, you will be starting your approach to a junction doing this long before you would by using brakes alone, you might be slowing up for half a mile on the level like this if fully loaded, whilst BTSGTG man will be on power till 200 yards away then braking hard without planning anything.
Driving like this encourages you to look and plan much further ahead than otherwise, it becomes a pride thing where you get annoyed with yourself if you have to brake before you would expect to.
Encourages you to leave a much longer braking space in front on motorways and the open road, because when matey in front brakes you will be slowing on the auxilliary as usual.
Saves tyre wear, only the drive axle tyres will be taking the slowing friction and because the approach is longer there won’t be so much friction anyway.
Your wheels will stay clean, that black ingrained staining all around the steering wheels especially won’t be there, you won’t see many vehicles without brake dust ingrained on the steering wheels, but when you do see one note how its being driven.
One minor point, i have two or three regular MSA stops i use on my regular journeys, Leigh Delamere is one, because i can use the turns into the lorry park for final braking, i can stop the lorry completely without once touching the brakes, that means i can then a feel round all the wheels for early warning signs of binding brakes or hot wheel bearings.
Last but not least its a professional way to drive a lorry, its is after all a lorry not a big car despite the moves to try and make it so, and the vehicle and the forces involved in controlling it should be given the respect it deserves.
There’s probably things i’ve missed out, you’ll find if you want to try this that it leads onto using manual override increasingly in your driving.
Hope that makes sense, it won’t be endorsed probably by the trainers and i know if a certain poster on the main forum sees this they’ll be along with personal comments as he often does (s’ok doesn’t bother me he’s on ignore but sometimes others quote him so i see he’s still addicted), but you did ask, bet you wish you hadn’t bothered now 
and i’ve tried to answer your very fair question fully.
edit.
just be aware of any vehicle with a decent ‘‘automatic’’ retarder, such as the Volvo mentioned, in winter on icy roads especially but on any slippery surface if driving in auto that sudden harsh ■■■■■■ through the drive wheels can be the cause of nasty problems, i came unstuck, literally, a few years ago driving a FM Volvo with empty trailer.
I’d just got in the bloody thing and going away down the industrial estate in auto, freezing cold morning, well unbeknown to me (hadn’t driven a Volvo for a while) the previous driver had left the retarder on position 3, maximum, and i hadn’t noticed, well as i approached the roundabout it was all black ice covered and yes the bloody lorry dropped about 3 gears and the retarder kicked in and all of a sudden i’ve got a locked drive axle going into an ice covered roundabout, oh bleeding wonderful 
.
Somehow i manged to straighten the thing up and got round the roundabout without hitting anything, and i still don’t know how.
So, check that bloody retarder is only on when you want it in adverse conditions.
Juddian:
Fair question mate.I drive as IMHO a lorry should be driven, using the auxilliary brake (exhauster if it hasn’t been specced with a proper retarder/Jake, most vehicles in this country arn’t properly specced) as the main brake at the correct revs in the correct gear for maximum ■■■■■■, going down through the gears manually to keep the exhaust brake in the correct rev band…you’ll notice on many modern vehicles the green band on the rev counter alters to a much higher rev band once you engage the exhauster.
My philosophy is gears to slow brakes to stop, if i’ve timed things right i won’t have to to use the footbrake at all whilst slowing up, and hopefully will be able to resume progress at a junction without ever coming to rest, if i have to stop then then plan is to only use the footbrake to bring the vehicle to a final halt, i use the exhauster as the primary brake and the footbrake to assist.
If you ever have a vehicle with a proper retarder or Jacob Brake then you’ll find the ■■■■■■ effort from the device to be around 2 to 4 times more effective than a normal exhauster, if you’ve driven a modern Volvo with the 3 stage retarder then you’ll know the sort of effort available by the better devices.
This driving isn’t taught any longer, though the vehicle makers continue to spend serious money providing auxilliary braking, so who’s right?
The reasons for driving like this are many.
Keeps the primary brakes cool for when needed in earnest, this is especially important in hilly areas.
Prevents wear by using the engine and gears as they were designed instead of wearing out brakes for no good reason.
Saves fuel, you will be starting your approach to a junction doing this long before you would by using brakes alone, you might be slowing up for half a mile on the level like this if fully loaded, whilst BTSGTG man will be on power till 200 yards away then braking hard without planning anything.
Driving like this encourages you to look and plan much further ahead than otherwise, it becomes a pride thing where you get annoyed with yourself if you have to brake before you would expect to.
Encourages you to leave a much longer braking space in front on motorways and the open road, because when matey in front brakes you will be slowing on the auxilliary as usual.
Saves tyre wear, only the drive axle tyres will be taking the slowing friction and because the approach is longer there won’t be so much friction anyway.
Your wheels will stay clean, that black ingrained staining all around the steering wheels especially won’t be there, you won’t see many vehicles without brake dust ingrained on the steering wheels, but when you do see one note how its being driven.
One minor point, i have two or three regular MSA stops i use on my regular journeys, Leigh Delamere is one, because i can use the turns into the lorry park for final braking, i can stop the lorry completely without once touching the brakes, that means i can then a feel round all the wheels for early warning signs of binding brakes or hot wheel bearings.Last but not least its a professional way to drive a lorry, its is after all a lorry not a big car despite the moves to try and make it so, and the vehicle and the forces involved in controlling it should be given the respect it deserves.
There’s probably things i’ve missed out, you’ll find if you want to try this that it leads onto using manual override increasingly in your driving.
Hope that makes sense, it won’t be endorsed probably by the trainers and i know if a certain poster on the main forum sees this they’ll be along with personal comments as he often does (s’ok doesn’t bother me he’s on ignore but sometimes others quote him so i see he’s still addicted), but you did ask, bet you wish you hadn’t bothered now
edit.
just be aware of any vehicle with a decent ‘‘automatic’’ retarder, such as the Volvo mentioned, in winter on icy roads especially but on any slippery surface if driving in auto that sudden harsh ■■■■■■ through the drive wheels can be the cause of nasty problems, i came unstuck, literally, a few years ago driving a FM Volvo with empty trailer.
I’d just got in the bloody thing and going away down the industrial estate in auto, freezing cold morning, well unbeknown to me (hadn’t driven a Volvo for a while) the previous driver had left the retarder on position 3, maximum, and i hadn’t noticed, well as i approached the roundabout it was all black ice covered and yes the bloody lorry dropped about 3 gears and the retarder kicked in and all of a sudden i’ve got a locked drive axle going into an ice covered roundabout, oh bleeding wonderful
Somehow i manged to straighten the thing up and got round the roundabout without hitting anything, and i still don’t know how.
So, check that bloody retarder is only on when you want it in adverse conditions.
I mainly drive a Mercedes Actros 62/13 plates. They have an exhaust brake with 3 positions. The green band doesn’t move but I have been told that it doesn’t count against me when the brake is applied and its out of the green band. As part of my induction I was taken out and taught how to use it and planning etc. They use Isotrack for driving styles and a big part of it is the coasting and exhaust brake to assist this. It does change down on its own but do you suggest I should try it to help it along. I often change it up from 11 to 12 to help with the cruise in top gear so do know where the switch is 
As you state I generally remove cruise about 1/2 a mile from a roundabout and coast up to it, gradients allowing. I will admit that it feels slow when the traffic is wizzing past and I feel like I am blocking the road. However this is how they want it doing so I will do so (they also pay a bonus if achieve the targets!)
Your comment about winter is noted! Thank you for the reply
kcrussell25:
Juddian:
I mainly drive a Mercedes Actros 62/13 plates. They have an exhaust brake with 3 positions. The green band doesn’t move but I have been told that it doesn’t count against me when the brake is applied and its out of the green band. As part of my induction I was taken out and taught how to use it and planning etc. They use Isotrack for driving styles and a big part of it is the coasting and exhaust brake to assist this. It does change down on its own but do you suggest I should try it to help it along. I often change it up from 11 to 12 to help with the cruise in top gear so do know where the switch is
As you state I generally remove cruise about 1/2 a mile from a roundabout and coast up to it, gradients allowing. I will admit that it feels slow when the traffic is wizzing past and I feel like I am blocking the road. However this is how they want it doing so I will do so (they also pay a bonus if achieve the targets!)
Your comment about winter is noted! Thank you for the reply
Sounds to me like you’re already doing the job pretty good yerself
Wasn’t trying to be patronising about the winter comment though re-reading it might have sounded like that, it was just mentioning how easy it can be to get caught out
Should you try a bit of manual to assist exhaust braking?
Well i always try to learn my vehicles back to front and inside out, all their good and bad points when its convenient to me, ie i drive all autos (apart from Volvo cos superb box, latest Scanny i haven’t yet driven so my jury is out on that) in manual anyway following my bloody auto Scanny of the time stalling out on me in its incompetence in auto and i spat me dummy out big time .
I reckon its always better to learn your vehicle and everything it can and can’t do when conditions are good and when no driver input is needed, better that than trying to fathom things like air dump valves and manual override when you’re slithering along in 4" of snow just trying to keep the sod on the tarmac.
My tuppence for what its worth is try using manual to up the revs under auxilliary braking and see if it helps, i haven’t driven a modern Merc save in the yard so i’m in no position to give an opinion on one, if its anything like previous auto Mercs i’ve driven its a bloody horrid gearbox, but have a play see what it does.
In theory your Isotrack should have been programmed to account for higher revs under auxilliary braking, but if a chump has done the input lazily that might not be the case, i had my in cab spy parameters altered on the office computer to account for this cos it wasn’t done proper in the first place by the shiny arses 
My philosophy is gears to slow brakes to stop, if i’ve timed things right i won’t have to to use the footbrake at all whilst slowing up, and hopefully will be able to resume progress at a junction without ever coming to rest, if i have to stop then then plan is to only use the footbrake to bring the vehicle to a final halt, i use the exhauster as the primary brake and the footbrake to assist.
I totally agree with this. I was a coach operator as well as instructing in the 70’s. The coach I drove all the time needed brake adjustment just once a year - and that was only to show willing.
Our training vehicles are all set up to make maximum use of the retarder. My strong emphasis is on using the momentum of the vehicle and I have a hatred of the right foot coming off the loud pedal and straight onto the brake. The first part of slowing a vehicle is to release the loud pedal and let the truck roll. Then, as said, it’s a simple matter of using the brake just to steady the truck to a halt.
This is a method that I find easy having practiced it for above 40 years with heavy vehicles. I continue to train new drivers to do this - sometimes finding a quiet bit of level road and lifting of the loud pedal at 30 mph and taking note of how long it takes to slow to 5 or even 10mph. Many experienced drivers could learn a lot by practicing this.
Done properly, the approach to roundabouts and junctions can often be handled without using the brake at all. Clearly, downhill is a different matter.
The driving test examiners are extremely happy to see this on test - as they should be. Sadly, the standards of instruction have dropped to the level of over simplified “brakes to slow, gears to go”. This is a travesty but that’s another subject.
Pete
Thankyou Peter, i’m pleased you teach this sort of thing, and even more pleased the examiners still like to see good use of momentum.
What is never stressed enough is that all the time the engine is on overrun, whether exhauster/retarder is being used or not there is no fuel being used at all, all the ground covered like this is free
Thankyou Peter, i’m pleased you teach this sort of thing, and even more pleased the examiners still like to see good use of momentum.
What is never stressed enough is that all the time the engine is on overrun, whether exhauster/retarder is being used or not there is no fuel being used at all, all the ground covered like this is free
That rather depends on who is teaching surely? I will mention the fact but I don’t make a big deal out of it. I don’t want the candidate to think I was that concerned about my fuel consumption - cos I’m truthfully not. But folks need to understand the principle so that it makes sense when faced with analysis devices.
Pete
Juddian:
Thankyou Peter, i’m pleased you teach this sort of thing, and even more pleased the examiners still like to see good use of momentum.What is never stressed enough is that all the time the engine is on overrun, whether exhauster/retarder is being used or not there is no fuel being used at all, all the ground covered like this is free
There is an extra point to this very good point. When you’re using the exhauster, the cylinders are overpressured compared to just rolling on the overrun, which helps keep their temp up for more efficient combustion when you do feed the power back in. I bet it’s a tiny difference, but it’s nice to know anyway!
I think the Mercs have a yellow/amber band instead of the usual blue. The yellow/amber band is where the exhauster is most effective, and that 3 stage they have is a good one. Similar to the XF I’m in now, when you’ve got the exhauster on, even if you’re in eco mode, you can still downshift when you want to… which for me means as soon as it gets to 1600, knock it down again.
Juddian - good point about approaching roundabouts etc. I’ve not noticed the gigantic delay that the arsetronic box is supposed to have, maybe it’s because I tend to arrive at the line already in 4th/5th and usually if I can pull straight out it’s only a case of tickling the gas and keeping her rolling. Or if I have to stop, it’ll have changed before I need to go anyway. One thing I do find the box does is want to start 1 gear higher than I want to, so I almost always knock it down a cog as soon as I’ve come to rest.
slowlane:
Juddian:
Thankyou Peter, i’m pleased you teach this sort of thing, and even more pleased the examiners still like to see good use of momentum.What is never stressed enough is that all the time the engine is on overrun, whether exhauster/retarder is being used or not there is no fuel being used at all, all the ground covered like this is free
There is an extra point to this very good point. When you’re using the exhauster, the cylinders are overpressured compared to just rolling on the overrun, which helps keep their temp up for more efficient combustion when you do feed the power back in. I bet it’s a tiny difference, but it’s nice to know anyway!
I think the Mercs have a yellow/amber band instead of the usual blue. The yellow/amber band is where the exhauster is most effective, and that 3 stage they have is a good one. Similar to the XF I’m in now, when you’ve got the exhauster on, even if you’re in eco mode, you can still downshift when you want to… which for me means as soon as it gets to 1600, knock it down again.
Juddian - good point about approaching roundabouts etc. I’ve not noticed the gigantic delay that the arsetronic box is supposed to have, maybe it’s because I tend to arrive at the line already in 4th/5th and usually if I can pull straight out it’s only a case of tickling the gas and keeping her rolling. Or if I have to stop, it’ll have changed before I need to go anyway. One thing I do find the box does is want to start 1 gear higher than I want to, so I almost always knock it down a cog as soon as I’ve come to rest.
We’ve all got our own way of doing things, and long may that continue to be the case.
Haven’t driven newer Dafs enough to discover being able to downshift whilst in eco if the exhauster is operating, thanks, handy to know that for the times i get stuck with one of the bloody things.
MANs still have a green band whilst exhausting, but it shifts up to the 2000/2200 band from its normal band circa 1200/1300 for normal driving…edit its 1200/1400 normal green.
Juddian:
kcrussell25:
Juddian:
I mainly drive a Mercedes Actros 62/13 plates. They have an exhaust brake with 3 positions. The green band doesn’t move but I have been told that it doesn’t count against me when the brake is applied and its out of the green band. As part of my induction I was taken out and taught how to use it and planning etc. They use Isotrack for driving styles and a big part of it is the coasting and exhaust brake to assist this. It does change down on its own but do you suggest I should try it to help it along. I often change it up from 11 to 12 to help with the cruise in top gear so do know where the switch is
As you state I generally remove cruise about 1/2 a mile from a roundabout and coast up to it, gradients allowing. I will admit that it feels slow when the traffic is wizzing past and I feel like I am blocking the road. However this is how they want it doing so I will do so (they also pay a bonus if achieve the targets!)
Your comment about winter is noted! Thank you for the reply
Sounds to me like you’re already doing the job pretty good yerself
Wasn’t trying to be patronising about the winter comment though re-reading it might have sounded like that, it was just mentioning how easy it can be to get caught outShould you try a bit of manual to assist exhaust braking?
Well i always try to learn my vehicles back to front and inside out, all their good and bad points when its convenient to me, ie i drive all autos (apart from Volvo cos superb box, latest Scanny i haven’t yet driven so my jury is out on that) in manual anyway following my bloody auto Scanny of the time stalling out on me in its incompetence in auto and i spat me dummy out big time
I reckon its always better to learn your vehicle and everything it can and can’t do when conditions are good and when no driver input is needed, better that than trying to fathom things like air dump valves and manual override when you’re slithering along in 4" of snow just trying to keep the sod on the tarmac.
My tuppence for what its worth is try using manual to up the revs under auxilliary braking and see if it helps, i haven’t driven a modern Merc save in the yard so i’m in no position to give an opinion on one, if its anything like previous auto Mercs i’ve driven its a bloody horrid gearbox, but have a play see what it does.
In theory your Isotrack should have been programmed to account for higher revs under auxilliary braking, but if a chump has done the input lazily that might not be the case, i had my in cab spy parameters altered on the office computer to account for this cos it wasn’t done proper in the first place by the shiny arses
No offense was taken about the winter comment. I had not considered it. Would rather do so now than like you sliding towards a roundabout.
I have played with the the manual gear change but think need a day or two to decide if its making a difference.
Regarding the gearbox, it seems very fond of neutral, particularly when I won’t to pull out at a roundabout but does do it on cruise sometimes too
That electric powershift manual if i had a quid for every time it dumped me in neutral in the middle of a roundabout i’d only be about 6 zeros behind Pete Smythe’s bank balance , and the automated manual in square Axors completely ruined an otherwise excellent lorry when fitted with the slapover 8, sounds like the autobox still a work in progress 
Keep up the good work mate
i’d only be about 6 zeros behind Pete Smythe’s bank balance
Don’t kid yourself. No hope haha!
Pete
As far as I know, grabbing neutral is what the box does if you’re asking for too much torque at the point it goes to change. Less right foot should stop that, providing the box is otherwise fine!
slowlane:
As far as I know, grabbing neutral is what the box does if you’re asking for too much torque at the point it goes to change. Less right foot should stop that, providing the box is otherwise fine!
Ill give that a try, thank you