Spy in the cab 20220

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
21

Buzzer:
Well varied comments indeed and as the company I started and now run by my two sons they have in the last year fitted dash cams and ones that look down the sides of the truck and trailer and this gives a very good insight to any accidents and is invaluable for aiding insurance claims as has been said it is invariably the truck that gets the blame, right or wrong you have hard evidence.
In todays vehicles and we run Scania’s they are totally reliant on a computer but at the press of a button the lads in the office can tell where a truck is, how fast it is going, when it started moving anywhere within ten yards any where in Europe also it tells the office fridge temperatures and exactly what fuel passes through the engine of the truck so no free dinners by plussing at the pumps as in the old days.
Technology has moved the industry forward no doubt but there is one failure as you need a computer to fix any problems unlike years ago when the driver could usually make a temp fix to get home.
One last thing of note as drivers were mentioned earlier, after having Sunday lunch my son was catching up with business on a laptop and mentioned that he had an influx of enquiries for driver positions something which has not happened in some time and apparently this is because of coronavirus as a lot of container drivers and others have no work as trade drops off especially from China, food for thought, Buzzer

Yes, especially where you are located. This is supposed to be the first week of lack of containers arriving from China, over 20 vessels have been cancelled to the UK, potentially approx. 300,000 containers not coming. It will finish some hauliers solely reliant on container work. Plus it will impact general haulage as well, with the lack of loads caused by re-distributing what the containers bring in. The panic buying has had a positive impact on our fridge work however, since Thursday last week we’re up 25 to 30% on chilled and frozen load totals.

22

The topic of telematic driver surveillance and in particular the issue of camera’s that point at the driver and continually record footage has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Regardless of their legality and legitimacy it’s interesting to note that these increasingly more sophisticated telematic systems are being developed by their manufacturers due to demand placed by operators onto an ageing workforce that has little resistance to accepting them in the workplace.

If a telematic system can be developed, installed and monitored by an operator to identify braking, accelerating, cornering, tick over, fuel consumption, lane wandering, speeding, road positioning, accident fault analysis, the content of a drivers personal phone calls, the content of a drivers in cab muses, inadvertent cussing and swearing, singing, nose picking, drinking, eating etc then why doesn’t the same system accommodate a Fitbit to measure an ageing drivers heart rate, blood pressure, cholesterol, morbid obesity, alcohol, drugs, breathing difficulties and signs of attention deficit that may identify early onset Alzheimer’s or dementia. The possibilities are seemingly endless. How many drivers collapse at the wheel or at a customer’s premises? How many drivers die in layby’s due to a lack of medical attention?

To date the road transport industry has only had itself to answer to regarding the development of these telematic systems which so far only measure factors that are important to attributing blame or maintaining the operator’s ‘O’ licence and not the driver’s welfare.

Sooner or later the general public will learn just how sophisticated these current, and relatively cheap, systems are. When they do it’ll be the victims and potential victims of poor driver health and welfare who’ll demand better protection.

The DVSA are rolling out the ‘Earned Recognition’ programme that will allow regulators to remotely access an operators records. Can you imagine if Professor Chris Whitty the DVLA Chief Medical Officer invited drivers to do the same rather than face a five yearly medical? Between the age of 55 and retirement a driver usually has two medicals to pass yet look at the instance of critical health issues drivers develop during this decade? The number of drivers in this age bracket today are the majority of LGV drivers on the roads.

Road transport, regardless of its colourful heritage hasn’t been kind to its workforce. As mobile workers drivers haven’t ever been afforded a minimum level of welfare requirements when away from base. Say what you like but they’re expected to doss down like tramps. They live hard and not surprisingly die early. Whether a camera catches the moment they expire will be something that social media like YouTube will decide to air or not. Maybe grandad’s ex-employer will get around to sending the grieving family an email link to some driver facing camera footage of him drifting off the motorway during a heart attack and hitting the parapet of a bridge. When you’ve seen one, you’ve seen them all.

23

As a mere driver, i have another point of view about driver facing cameras.

I’ve been doing this job for well over 40 years now, no one has ever complained about my work, no one has needed to monitor or watch me because i take a pride in my work and do my best out there.
I didn’t tell the companies to employ half wits who can’t manage a wagon for a few weeks without smashing it up or flipping the thing on its side or any one of the things they manage to do now regularly.
I refuse and will continue to refuse to be pigeon holed as equally as hopeless as these sorry articles there are sadly so many of out there now, and don’t insult me by telling me its for my benefit.
If the company have dropped a clanger and employed idiots that need to be watched 24/7 that’s nothing to do with me, you employed them i didn’t.

We don’t have a driver facing cameras, because i work for a proper company that has union recognition and the union (i am a member and active) will simply not accept driver facing cameras.
It is not the case that companies can just fit these things willy nilly, yes some do but its always where the union if there is one is not recognised, there are stages to go through including discussions, impact assessments and negotiations, and i know of one company who fitted these things one weekend and not a lorry left the yard and the cameras were removed.

Yes i’m fortunate that the work i do is specialised and the equipment and vehicles are expensive and easily damaged, so its not a case for me that some bullish boss can just replace us all in an instant with whatever licence holders they can drag in off the street and plonk bums on seats, you’d think employers would have twigged by now that the reason for the accidents and damage is mainly because their policy for years has been any old bum on the seat, and look exactly where its got the industry, a dumbed down deskilled industry.

When you deskill a job like ours you allow people to enter the industry who shouldn’t ever be allowed within 50 ft of a wagon…come on, we see them every day and we work with them.
I’ll tell you when the big change started, it was automatic gearboxes, this change allowed all sorts of clowns to get behind the wheel, people who wouldn’t manage get an old Foden or Scammell out the gate, now this may not worry you but look where we are now, we got ABS and EBS and they’re still smashing the tackle up, so we’re at the next stage, automatic emergency braking and lane departure warnings (the next generation of lorries will interfere with the steering when the vehicle doesn’t like the LDW going off, what could possibly go wrong :unamused: ), and still they’re smashing each other up the arse or driving ■■■■■■ up and stopping for a kip in the inside lane or rolling the whole outfit on a straight road.

Now let me ask you who is to blame for all of this?
Employers will say the driver, but that isn’t actually true, because all you employers here have and had good competent skilled drivers on your staff and almost to a man or woman you failed to appreciate them, you alone are responsible for the dumbing down, dumbing down is not the answer because it allows the next worse layer of incompetents to sit behind the wheel of your wagons and steer.
You wanted cheap steering wheel attendants and that amazingly enough is what you’ve ended up with.

And that ladies and gentlemen is why companies are putting driver facing cameras in.
You can fit twenty cameras around the vehicle (protects me, great), you can spy on the vehicle and monitor its movements to your hearts content, but you will not be pointing a driver facing camera at me.

edit.
The other issue with this spyware, is that your are dissuading those good new potential drivers from the industry as well as alienating your better existing drivers.

24

Juddian:
As a mere driver, i have another point of view about driver facing cameras.

I’ve been doing this job for well over 40 years now, no one has ever complained about my work, no one has needed to monitor or watch me because i take a pride in my work and do my best out there.
I didn’t tell the companies to employ half wits who can’t manage a wagon for a few weeks without smashing it up or flipping the thing on its side or any one of the things they manage to do now regularly.
I refuse and will continue to refuse to be pigeon holed as equally as hopeless as these sorry articles there are sadly so many of out there now, and don’t insult me by telling me its for my benefit.
If the company have dropped a clanger and employed idiots that need to be watched 24/7 that’s nothing to do with me, you employed them i didn’t.

We don’t have a driver facing cameras, because i work for a proper company that has union recognition and the union (i am a member and active) will simply not accept driver facing cameras.
It is not the case that companies can just fit these things willy nilly, yes some do but its always where the union if there is one is not recognised, there are stages to go through including discussions, impact assessments and negotiations, and i know of one company who fitted these things one weekend and not a lorry left the yard and the cameras were removed.

Yes i’m fortunate that the work i do is specialised and the equipment and vehicles are expensive and easily damaged, so its not a case for me that some bullish boss can just replace us all in an instant with whatever licence holders they can drag in off the street and plonk bums on seats, you’d think employers would have twigged by now that the reason for the accidents and damage is mainly because their policy for years has been any old bum on the seat, and look exactly where its got the industry, a dumbed down deskilled industry.

When you deskill a job like ours you allow people to enter the industry who shouldn’t ever be allowed within 50 ft of a wagon…come on, we see them every day and we work with them.
I’ll tell you when the big change started, it was automatic gearboxes, this change allowed all sorts of clowns to get behind the wheel, people who wouldn’t manage get an old Foden or Scammell out the gate, now this may not worry you but look where we are now, we got ABS and EBS and they’re still smashing the tackle up, so we’re at the next stage, automatic emergency braking and lane departure warnings (the next generation of lorries will interfere with the steering when the vehicle doesn’t like the LDW going off, what could possibly go wrong :unamused: ), and still they’re smashing each other up the arse or driving ■■■■■■ up and stopping for a kip in the inside lane or rolling the whole outfit on a straight road.

Now let me ask you who is to blame for all of this?
Employers will say the driver, but that isn’t actually true, because all you employers here have and had good competent skilled drivers on your staff and almost to a man or woman you failed to appreciate them, you alone are responsible for the dumbing down, dumbing down is not the answer because it allows the next worse layer of incompetents to sit behind the wheel of your wagons and steer.
You wanted cheap steering wheel attendants and that amazingly enough is what you’ve ended up with.

And that ladies and gentlemen is why companies are putting driver facing cameras in.
You can fit twenty cameras around the vehicle (protects me, great), you can spy on the vehicle and monitor its movements to your hearts content, but you will not be pointing a driver facing camera at me.

edit.
The other issue with this spyware, is that your are dissuading those good new potential drivers from the industry as well as alienating your better existing drivers.

+1,well said Juddian

25

joeshell:

Juddian:
As a mere driver, i have another point of view about driver facing cameras.

I’ve been doing this job for well over 40 years now, no one has ever complained about my work, no one has needed to monitor or watch me because i take a pride in my work and do my best out there.
I didn’t tell the companies to employ half wits who can’t manage a wagon for a few weeks without smashing it up or flipping the thing on its side or any one of the things they manage to do now regularly.
I refuse and will continue to refuse to be pigeon holed as equally as hopeless as these sorry articles there are sadly so many of out there now, and don’t insult me by telling me its for my benefit.
If the company have dropped a clanger and employed idiots that need to be watched 24/7 that’s nothing to do with me, you employed them i didn’t.

We don’t have a driver facing cameras, because i work for a proper company that has union recognition and the union (i am a member and active) will simply not accept driver facing cameras.
It is not the case that companies can just fit these things willy nilly, yes some do but its always where the union if there is one is not recognised, there are stages to go through including discussions, impact assessments and negotiations, and i know of one company who fitted these things one weekend and not a lorry left the yard and the cameras were removed.

Yes i’m fortunate that the work i do is specialised and the equipment and vehicles are expensive and easily damaged, so its not a case for me that some bullish boss can just replace us all in an instant with whatever licence holders they can drag in off the street and plonk bums on seats, you’d think employers would have twigged by now that the reason for the accidents and damage is mainly because their policy for years has been any old bum on the seat, and look exactly where its got the industry, a dumbed down deskilled industry.

When you deskill a job like ours you allow people to enter the industry who shouldn’t ever be allowed within 50 ft of a wagon…come on, we see them every day and we work with them.
I’ll tell you when the big change started, it was automatic gearboxes, this change allowed all sorts of clowns to get behind the wheel, people who wouldn’t manage get an old Foden or Scammell out the gate, now this may not worry you but look where we are now, we got ABS and EBS and they’re still smashing the tackle up, so we’re at the next stage, automatic emergency braking and lane departure warnings (the next generation of lorries will interfere with the steering when the vehicle doesn’t like the LDW going off, what could possibly go wrong :unamused: ), and still they’re smashing each other up the arse or driving ■■■■■■ up and stopping for a kip in the inside lane or rolling the whole outfit on a straight road.

Now let me ask you who is to blame for all of this?
Employers will say the driver, but that isn’t actually true, because all you employers here have and had good competent skilled drivers on your staff and almost to a man or woman you failed to appreciate them, you alone are responsible for the dumbing down, dumbing down is not the answer because it allows the next worse layer of incompetents to sit behind the wheel of your wagons and steer.
You wanted cheap steering wheel attendants and that amazingly enough is what you’ve ended up with.

And that ladies and gentlemen is why companies are putting driver facing cameras in.
You can fit twenty cameras around the vehicle (protects me, great), you can spy on the vehicle and monitor its movements to your hearts content, but you will not be pointing a driver facing camera at me.

edit.
The other issue with this spyware, is that your are dissuading those good new potential drivers from the industry as well as alienating your better existing drivers.

+1,well said Juddian

Spot on assessment.

26

ROTHDOG,very well written,i assume you are still driving, and with your experience, you will know transport men [drivers ] will never stick together as our free private enterprise companies will not recognize unions., HOWEVERin western AUSTRALIA[ -a very large company using subcontractors insisted that cabs pulling their trailers had a forward-facing camera,also a camera on the driver,also a camera looking in the sleeper most drivers objected to the camera on the sleeper,it went to arbitration as an invasion of the drivers privacy,and those cameras were removed,] qoute]thanks DIG.

I am thankful i am well out of it DBP

27

It’s not really a question of what individual drivers think about having a camera facing them anymore or why they’re being fitted. Like it or not they’re here to stay. The question now is what these telematic systems will look like in ten years-time and also what the public will demand of them. Who remembers Volvo Powertronic and Geartronic gearboxes? Here’s some of the literature Volvo published at the time:

Automatic - but with manual control
Both the Powertronic and the Geartronic had two important novelties compared with ‘old-fashioned’ traditional automatic gearboxes: they preserved modest fuel consumption and also allowed the driver to manually override the system, because an automatic gearbox can never compare with the skill of an experienced truck driver.

Most importantly

‘…allow the driver to manually override the system, because an automatic gearbox can never compare with the skill of an experienced truck driver.’

Eventually automatic gearboxes did just that. Just think what telematic and surveillance cameras will do in the same time.

Telematics are akin to another tachograph but harder to fiddle. When tachographs replaced log books some drivers said this is the end when for many it’d just started.

28

It will always matter what individual drivers think of driver facing cameras, because if the better drivers out there won’t accept them it means the companies insisting on these things are going to end up what they’ve presumably wanted, the borg, and the better drivers will find other employers who can see the wood for the trees, and eagerly cherry pick those remaining decent drivers these foolish suits are insulting by treating like the steering wheel operatives they can pull in off the street by the score, and then wonder why with all the electronic tat they were urged to buy by sharp suited sales bods half their fleet is at any time in the workshop/bodyshop and the rest of the fleet looks like it’s spent the last 6 years on landfill even if it’s 6 months old.

Now operating like a spoof version of Mi5 might seem a grand solution when a gaggle of pointy shoed cloned managers are having their daily conflab and patting each other on the back at how clever they are, but when the job involves a bit more than pointing a lorry down a motorway and backing onto a bay, they might find out the hard way that actually the job requires a bit more nous from their front line staff than they thought, those suits who have actually been at the front line and took a pride doing so would appreciate this of course and would know the difference between a driver and a steering wheel operative.

It isn’t a battle between management and drivers, though on some companies it has become this, the better companies who offer the very best terms and conditions are almost all unionised and almost all do not have driver facing cameras because simply put they don’t need them, they are to quote one of our posters Robroy ‘team companies’ who value their staff as people important to the business, whereas the other sort view their drivers as a necessary evil to be obtained as cheaply as possible regardless of competence and replaced by automation at the earliest possible opportunity, these latter well represented in the large logistics groups.

29

a few weeks ago,all our drivers were asked to read,and sign,the new Company regs. on Camera’s on the Company vehicles.there was a mention on driver facing camera’s and quite a few of us stated we are not happy about signing this document. Management assured us,that within our Company,(DHL),every depot was assessed,and we WOULD NOT be saddled with driver facing cam’s :smiley: as other’s have said,we are quite happy with all the outside facing cam’s.

30

It won’t be the drivers or the management who ultimately decide whether to have telematics and cameras. It’ll be the customers. When the customers get used to requesting these systems as part of their specification, then transport and logistics companies will be left with a choice whether to bid for that work or not. Just how long transport companies will hold out to protect the drivers who refuse to work with a camera pointing at them remains to be seen. They can be fitted inside a truck overnight. When you’re selling a company’s attributes in a spartan meeting room to a potential £5 million contract manager, the added security of a driver facing camera sounds nice over coffee and biscuits. A few drivers deciding they can’t accept the intrusion won’t stand in the way of deals like that.

You’ve all seen those ‘How’s this driver’s driving? Call 0800 etc’ stickers on the back of trailers. Soon there’ll be a sticker with a link to a web site where you can watch the driver’s driving and send comments directly to the transport manager all from the comfort of your own phone.

31

David H:
It won’t be the drivers or the management who ultimately decide whether to have telematics and cameras. It’ll be the customers. When the customers get used to requesting these systems as part of their specification, then transport and logistics companies will be left with a choice whether to bid for that work or not. Just how long transport companies will hold out to protect the drivers who refuse to work with a camera pointing at them remains to be seen. They can be fitted inside a truck overnight. When you’re selling a company’s attributes in a spartan meeting room to a potential £5 million contract manager, the added security of a driver facing camera sounds nice over coffee and biscuits. A few drivers deciding they can’t accept the intrusion won’t stand in the way of deals like that.

You’ve all seen those ‘How’s this driver’s driving? Call 0800 etc’ stickers on the back of trailers. Soon there’ll be a sticker with a link to a web site where you can watch the driver’s driving and send comments directly to the transport manager all from the comfort of your own phone.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
At last some common sense written by someone who knows how the modern transport industry works. All the “compliance” requirements ARE customer driven. If you don’t do it your company will not get the work with the major corporations, whether it is a shipping line for containers or Tesco deliveries to RDCs.

The telematics in place now to monitor certain driving style parameters do benefit the driver if they are open-minded enough to take on board the improvements in their driving recommended. We use 5 driving style parameters to reduce fuel consumption and if a driver achieves what is required a fuel bonus (bit of a misnomer it should be driving style bonus) is paid weekly. Graduated into four categories, drivers with the top awards get an extra £17 weekly after tax.

32

David H:
Soon there’ll be a sticker with a link to a web site where you can watch the driver’s driving and comments directly to the transport manager all from the comfort of your own phone.

Probably while they’re driving… oh the irony… :unamused:

33

I wholeheartedly agree with Gingerfold comments, however, any person not connected in any way to the workings of the transport industry would take the view that the industry is driven, all most governed, by the Blue chip companies, and giant supermarkets, dictating how transport companies run their trucks connected to theses companies.

Personally i remember when SAINSBURYS BASINGSTOKE starting making drivers/me and others go INSIDE THEIR warehouse when delivering a palleted load of mixed GERMAN SAUSAGE products from HERTA, all different coded numbers on the boxes,we /me, on your own no, chill warehouse clothes to break down each pallet to make pallets up of the same number.i knew then the end was near , and it was for me…the practise was agreed by the company to KEEP THE CONTRACT so in fact drivers my age are probably to blame,by doing as we were told. for the company being dictated to by the big companies…PS we were not unionized, it would have been different if we were…although i had lost faith in unions,it would have fought that ,ie working in a another companies whare house…

Extra driver aids , large mirrors , cameras,wifi convoys , satellite navigation, electronic driver cards .yes , all to get the blue-chip work, just thought what about the driver, not considered, nothing new there then…
i remember when the mirrors were the size of a budgies cage mirror as many of you will.dbp.

34

Let me get this right, at the moment its all protected footage sent to some ultra secure offshore site and only visible by highly polished shoes, serious data protection.

But, the supermarkets and shipping forwarders (big profits to be made off those contracts eh operators) will demand and get completely open CCTV access for members of the public to log on and view the driver, so they can ring and criticise whatever they like?

Best of luck filling your driving seats people, young switched on drivers at this very moment are busy filling in lorry licence applications so keen will they be to earn a fraction over national minimum wage to put themselves through this.
Good luck with that.

Jesus wept.

35

Juddian:
Let me get this right, at the moment its all protected footage sent to some ultra secure offshore site and only visible by highly polished shoes, serious data protection.

But, the supermarkets and shipping forwarders (big profits to be made off those contracts eh operators) will demand and get completely open CCTV access for members of the public to log on and view the driver, so they can ring and criticise whatever they like?

Best of luck filling your driving seats people, young switched on drivers at this very moment are busy filling in lorry licence applications so keen will they be to earn a fraction over national minimum wage to put themselves through this.
Good luck with that.

Jesus wept.

No you’ve got it completely wrong. You won’t engage in reasoned debate so good bye.

36

^^ and that attitude is exactly why the industry is in the state it’s in.

37

Gingerfold, if you feel that way you are best sitting back in your office chair,by your posts and what you have qouted[camrea incidents are forward to you] you are wearing two many hats!!
Driving a truck long-distance for 2/3 weeks away at one time, a drivers outlook or reasoning you get after years of being a driver…you maybe own a company and employ drivers or you are a transport manager .reasoning and debate has never been on the driver’s side since 1967 when i started, we had unions to do that for us[allthough i was disillusioned by them in 1980] they need to get recruiting…

Maybe insurance assessors are on the site which they are perfectly intitled to be.

38

THANK YOU ALL i think this has died a death, however i have just one thing to say[ if the cap fits wear it] .there are an awful lot of men on this site who contribute ,yes perfectly their right , a free world, however, they have never ever been in a cab and driven thousands of miles for one trip,driven and worked 15+HOURS AND THE REST got ZB -about at borders, cooked their food for the whole trip, the whole package, also did it trip after trip for years, as that what drivers did AND DO so when you nondrivers, pointy shoes, office bods, contribute and make comments on what drivers should do, and put uP with just so the company gets the work, you would be100% ZB- without drivers, so consider them,look after their interests, they are your assets!!!,wind your necks IN.DBP.

39

peggydeckboy:
Gingerfold, if you feel that way you are best sitting back in your office chair,by your posts and what you have qouted[camrea incidents are forward to you] you are wearing two many hats!!
Driving a truck long-distance for 2/3 weeks away at one time, a drivers outlook or reasoning you get after years of being a driver…you maybe own a company and employ drivers or you are a transport manager .reasoning and debate has never been on the driver’s side since 1967 when i started, we had unions to do that for us[allthough i was disillusioned by them in 1980] they need to get recruiting…

Maybe insurance assessors are on the site which they are perfectly intitled to be.

+1

40

I’m only glad that I didn’t have cameras facing me when I was truck driving! Been finished almost eighteen years now, but thinking back to those days some of the things I did would not have gone down well nowadays. Grabbing a sandwich (or even a cuppa!) while moving slowly in traffic queues, trying to follow an A-Z held in one hand while driving in places like Manchester etc, spending an age on a mobile phone sorting my work out while travelling at 40 to 50+ mph on an A road or Motorway. Now that I can sit in my chair and reflect, in hindsight all of those things were stupid and I was probably very fortunate that no disasters occoured? If a camera had been on me I wouldn’t have done any of those and would have been a safer driver for it.

I remember back in the late 70’s/early 80’s when Tilcon had their own driver assessor who would visit annually from Harrogate to ride with the lads and report back on them. The Late Pete ‘Captain’ Gallimore had him one day against his wishes, Pete was one of the best drivers around and was a tutor for motorcycle riders in his spare time, but he didn’t really want to be assessed! Anyway they set off, the assessor told him to ‘just drive as normal’ so when he launched the Gardner engined Foden S80 up the A52 Derby Hill out of Ashbourne at a heady 10 mph out came the snap box and flask! :open_mouth: “I allways reckon to sup a cuppa and eat a sarnie up here” he said, the assessor was not impressed!! :laughing: The rest of the trip didn’t go too well for the assessor either, and he didn’t come again, but that’s a story for another day. :wink:

I can see both good and bad reasons for cameras but I reckon they will probably come as a factory fitment in years to come? :confused:

Pete.