ROG:
How come all those in the know on this site as well as all the tachograph checking companies have correctly interpreted the law correctly yet CM has not
CM hasn’t interpreted it… the quote from the article is a quote from the man VOSA- the quote from the article is relating to the 30 minute rule is a quote from the driver who contacted CM asking the question.
How you get from CM quoting two individuals in an article to interpreting the law either way is a bit of a jump.
as for my self in this discussion I thought I made it clear that I am not arguing for either interpretation just adding to the discussion
If I and perhaps others have misread what CM is saying then I apologise
Not a problem Rog I can see where all this has come from, there is one line in the article that is not attributed to either person
The WTD states drivers must have a 30-minute break before or at the end of a six-hour working period.
Using the .Gov.UK website I quoted above and the man from VOSA’s answer then in 2011 when the article was written that sentence would have been correct, it still maybe seeing as we still discussing it all these years later - as I said until there is case law then we wont have a definitive answer. I would guess that the guidance issued by the DFT that supports your definition would be the one to work to.
But as we know with the recent “interpretation” of the weekend rest rules in cabs, what has been common and accepted practice even by enforcement bodies can be overturned by a judge scrutinising the actual wording of the legislation
I can’t agree that you need a 30 minute break before exceeding 6 hours working time, VOSA were saying you could have a 15 minute break for the 6 hour rule as far back as 2008, though it’s quite possible/probable that individual VOSA bods were not giving the same advice as was printed in their guides.
Article 7 (4) of the RT(WT)R states that “Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each” while article 5.2 of Regulation (EC) No 561/2006 says “Breaks may be subdivided into periods of at least 15 minutes each”.
The road transport working time regulations don’t define a break, but (EC) 561/2006 defines a break as “any period during which a driver may not carry out any driving or any other work and which is used exclusively for recuperation”, given this interpretation I would say that a break, whether it be 30 or 45 minutes, that’s sub-divided into periods of 15 minutes is a break that can be made up of smaller breaks of 15 minutes each.
Therefore the break required for the 6 hour rule, who’s length is not given, is 15 minutes which is the shortest break that will count for the WTD.
I agree though that like many regulations it would take a court case to be sure of the intended in interpretation.
I agree though that like many regulations it would take a court case to be sure of the intended in interpretation.
^ This.
I have a suspicion that if it ever does go to court then the DFT would have to rewrite the guidance. If the 15 minutes chunks had been defined in the legislation as breaks in their own right then we wouldn’t be having this discussion, but as it stands they are clearly defined as only part of a break not a complete break in themselves. It is a badly written bit of legislation.
PS… for anyone even further confused take note: I am not suggesting that either interpretation is right or wrong or promoting either above each other. I would take Rog and Tachographs advice and comply with the DFT guidance until such time it is updated or there is a court case
Like I said above if i know im only doing up to 6 hours work I take a 15 at some point mid morning, when I download my card at end of week I never get an infringement.Just a few boys at work swear I should be taking 30 minutes break!
ValleysTrucker:
Like I said above if i know im only doing up to 6 hours work I take a 15 at some point mid morning, when I download my card at end of week I never get an infringement.Just a few boys at work swear I should be taking 30 minutes break!
I was going to post that the legislation clearly states that the break after 6 hrs should be 15 mins, and indeed tacho software analysis backs this up, but then I re-read the actual wording in the link.
7.—(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
so if you work 299 mins you don’t need a break, and if you work 300 mins you don’t need a break as you haven’t worked more than 6hrs, however if you work 301 mins you will need a break
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
therefore you have exceded 6 hrs but are less than 9 hrs so you need 30 mins break
Héraultais:
I was going to post that the legislation clearly states that the break after 6 hrs should be 15 mins, and indeed tacho software analysis backs this up, but then I re-read the actual wording in the link.
7.—(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
so if you work 299 mins you don’t need a break, and if you work 300 mins you don’t need a break as you haven’t worked more than 6hrs, however if you work 301 mins you will need a break
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
therefore you have exceded 6 hrs but are less than 9 hrs so you need 30 mins break
Why have you missed the bit out that states breaks must be at least 15 mins
Héraultais:
I was going to post that the legislation clearly states that the break after 6 hrs should be 15 mins, and indeed tacho software analysis backs this up, but then I re-read the actual wording in the link.
7.—(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.
so if you work 299 mins you don’t need a break, and if you work 300 mins you don’t need a break as you haven’t worked more than 6hrs, however if you work 301 mins you will need a break
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
therefore you have exceded 6 hrs but are less than 9 hrs so you need 30 mins break
Why have you missed the bit out that states breaks must be at least 15 mins
I haven’t missed it out. To count as a break 15 mins is required, I don’t dispute that at all. I have always accepted as does the tacho software that 15 mins is required before working more than 6 hrs. However re-read what I wrote, then come back to me.
ROG:
Why have you missed the bit out that states breaks must be at least 15 mins
Because the legislation doesn’t say that- it says the 30 minute break can be broken down into 15 minute chunks , but does not say that those chunks are a break in themselves only “Part of a break” so if you go by the strict interpretation of the legislation as it is written if you take 15 minutes after 6 hours you have only taken part of a break not a break as defined.
The guidance says you can but the guidance is not the law, and a judge may interpret the law different to the guidance.
It only takes one bolshie union in Europe to go to court to ask for it to be clarified and I suspect that the guidance and a lot of software would have to be rewritten
7.—(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a Pie <~~ this tells you what you should eat after 6 hours
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a Pie Big enough to be cut into two pieces <~~~ This tells you the size of Pie to be eaten
(4) Each Pie may be made up of separate equal slices <~~~ This tells you that you don’t have to eat the pie in one mouth full - it doesn’t say you can save half the pie for later
If I work 6 hours and one minute then eat only half a Pie have I satisfied 7.1?
As it is written no, the legislation states I should have eaten a whole Pie
I have no argument that the guidance states that actually I can eat half the Pie and save the other half for later - but the guidance is not the law but how VOSA/DFT choose to interpret/act on the law.
The legislation states that a total of 30 mins is needed during a shift where the working time is between 6 and 9 hours - that is the only 30 min rule listed
It also states that a driver shall do no more than 6 hours working time without a break
It also states that breaks can be 15 mins
Absolutely nowhere does it state that 30 mins must be taken at or before 6 hours of work - had it done so then that would apply to any 6 hours of work during the shift and that would have meant the scenario below would have to be done
Shift where no more than 4 hours driving is done
work 6
break 30
work 6
break 30
work 2
The above is not how the legislation is written
Below is legal
work 6
break 15
work 6
break 15
work 2
break 15
work 15
ROG:
The legislation states that a total of 30 mins is needed during a shift where the working time is between 6 and 9 hours - that is the only 30 min rule listed
This is what the actual legislation says.
(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
I don’t see the word total in there.
Just to clarify, I do agree with you and only take 15 mins within a 6 hour period, but I am making the point of what is actually written in the legislation.
no it doesn’t, I am afraid, if it did then this whole discussion would be null and void
What is does CLEARLY state is a break is 30 minutes which can be broken down into 15 minutes chunks. until you have taken enough chunks (2x15 mins) you have not taken a break just part of a break
The legislation is quite clear the break is 30 minutes and a break (not part of a break) must be taken after 6 hours working.
Héraultais:
Just to clarify, I do agree with you and only take 15 mins within a 6 hour period, but I am making the point of what is actually written in the legislation.
Member States shall take the measures necessary to ensure that, without prejudice to the level of protection provided by Regulation (EEC) No 3820/85 or, failing that, by the AETR Agreement, persons performing mobile road transport activities, without prejudice to Article 2(1), in no circumstances work for more than six consecutive hours without a break. Working time shall be interrupted by a break of at least 30 minutes, if working hours total between six and nine hours, and of at least 45 minutes, if working hours total more than nine hours.
Breaks may be subdivided into periods of at least 15 minutes each.
Breaks may be subdivided into periods of at least 15 minutes each.
So the 15 minutes are constituent parts of a 30 minute break and not a break in their own right
I agree BUT where does it state that all the 30 mins must be taken at or before the 6 hour work point ?
so we agree that the 15 minute segments are not a break but are added together to make a 30 minute break - thank you
7.—(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break. 2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.
the legislation says you must take a break after 6 hours, the break is defined as a period of 30 minutes
