So if a driver who has the grandfather rights until sept this year doesn’t take his DCPC by then cannot drive commercially until they do the 35hrs presumably , Which could be taken at any time in the 5yrs following upto 2019, ? So those training companies who start to charge extortionate fees in the run up to 2014 could be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term, as people remember sh*t like that
ND888 BIGJ:
Dont see why you dont treble your rates shep everybody has been aware they need to get qualified for around 5 years.
I know what you are saying but it isn’t quite as simple as that. I started driving 16 months ago - had entirely desk job before that. I have had 16 months to do it. Now ok - that is plenty of time, and I didn’t get organised, my bad. But also consider that driving is only an occasional part of my job, not my entire working week, and hence fitting it in will be fun. It is actually questionable whether I need CPC as I believe I am exempt (I only drive AV equipment to events and then operate it and drive back) but my TM is adamant everyone needs it to keep things simple and Mr Plod / Vosa will not want to discuss exemptions on the roadside.
But if bloke from a different job sector and a pre-97 license starts driving commercially today, he now has 5 months to do 35 hours. I still think that the “grandad rights” on this are a curse not a blessing and should be ditched after September. The intent was surely that established drivers could do a course every month or two and slowly build up the hours, not put brand new drivers through 5 years worth of training in 5 months (which decreases every day that passes)
Ok, rant over!
th2013:
Daz1970:
IMO it should have been mandatory for existing drivers to do a minimum of one module per year…then most if not all the forthcoming panic would have been alleviated!!!
As I said…just my opinion.100% agree
No doubt lots of the im not doing it it will be cancaled mob are sweating now
GasGas:
If you and the company you drive for a 100% squeaky-clean and you never have an accident, then yes you may well get away with it for years.I have known more than one person earn a living as a driver without even having a licence…although this is increasingly difficult as the police can now check statements such as "I sent my licence off last week when I moved house,’ or “I was driving an ERF last week and it caught fire and all my documents were destroyed.” It was always the ERF bit that made that last one believable (“I didn’t have time to get my bag as the cab was melting!”)
But where the smelly stuff hits the fan is when a driver gets caught without a card, perhaps after a no fault accident…you can bet all his colleagues will then come under scrutiny, the fleet may find its insurance is suspended, and the drivers and the TM will get summoned before the Traffic Commissioner, who at very least is likely to suspend the company’s O licence until all the drivers are fully trained and call the TM’s good repute and professional competence into question. All this is, of course, on top of whatever fines get imposed for the original offence.
The only way to have ensured compliance, without deploying disproportionate resources on enforcement, was through the insurance issue.
Despite persistent badgering from the authorities, insurance companies (who understand, as private businesses, it’s not in their commercial interest to do so) have refused to make any unequivocal statement they will withdraw cover.
They can’t, in any case, as many of their customers will be exempt.
GasGas:
That’s what the Irish Govt did: seven hours a year, every year, so none of this nonsense about it not happening…everyone had to accept that it was happening like it or not, and you had to participate from year one. Harsh, but fair.
Fair? Naw.
They’re all done in a classroom/powerpoint to repetitive RSA book. No opportunity to do something handy like an ADR course.
C+D licence holders wishing to cover both have to do 6 modules, 42hrs. Money grabbing bawjaws.
Those behind, had to play catch up anyway and do modules back to back. RSA making the rules up as they go along.
Gold-plating of EU rules is nonsense. Fair is when every member state does the same.
tommy t:
So if a driver who has the grandfather rights until sept this year doesn’t take his DCPC by then cannot drive commercially until they do the 35hrs presumably , Which could be taken at any time in the 5yrs following upto 2019, ? So those training companies who start to charge extortionate fees in the run up to 2014 could be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term, as people remember sh*t like that
A lot of them will go out of business with the way it’s currently structured.
I doubt it will be abolished completely unless UKIP got into power but I still think there is a good chance it will be reformed enormously and many people, like fitters and mechanics, will find they’ve lost 5 days of leave and £500 unnecessarily.
So many difficult, and largely unsatisfactorily answered, questions surround it. Like, with those driver that haven’t, or refuse, to do it. Will employment law class it as fair dismissal?
tommy t:
So if a driver who has the grandfather rights until sept this year doesn’t take his DCPC by then cannot drive commercially until they do the 35hrs presumably , Which could be taken at any time in the 5yrs following upto 2019, ? So those training companies who start to charge extortionate fees in the run up to 2014 could be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term, as people remember sh*t like that
The way i understand it is grandfather right expire come september this year so the right to drive commercially expires sept 2014 not 2019 as you stated above ■■?
th2013:
ND888 BIGJ:
Dont see why you dont treble your rates shep everybody has been aware they need to get qualified for around 5 years.I know what you are saying but it isn’t quite as simple as that. I started driving 16 months ago - had entirely desk job before that. I have had 16 months to do it. Now ok - that is plenty of time, and I didn’t get organised, my bad. But also consider that driving is only an occasional part of my job, not my entire working week, and hence fitting it in will be fun. It is actually questionable whether I need CPC as I believe I am exempt (I only drive AV equipment to events and then operate it and drive back) but my TM is adamant everyone needs it to keep things simple and Mr Plod / Vosa will not want to discuss exemptions on the roadside.
But if bloke from a different job sector and a pre-97 license starts driving commercially today, he now has 5 months to do 35 hours. I still think that the “grandad rights” on this are a curse not a blessing and should be ditched after September. The intent was surely that established drivers could do a course every month or two and slowly build up the hours, not put brand new drivers through 5 years worth of training in 5 months (which decreases every day that passes)
Ok, rant over!
If you spend less than half your working hours, a year, behind the wheel of a 3.5t vehicle. Then I think you are almost certainly exempt. VOSAs continued failure to officially accept exemptions, and with one embarassing back pedal under their belt already, will just end up creating a great sense of unfairness and ill-feeling that was completely unnecessary if the implementation had been better handled.
ND888 BIGJ:
tommy t:
So if a driver who has the grandfather rights until sept this year doesn’t take his DCPC by then cannot drive commercially until they do the 35hrs presumably , Which could be taken at any time in the 5yrs following upto 2019, ? So those training companies who start to charge extortionate fees in the run up to 2014 could be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term, as people remember sh*t like thatThe way i understand it is grandfather right expire come september this year so the right to drive commercially expires sept 2014 not 2019 as you stated above ■■?
It’s unclear what the grandfather rights scenario is with someone who holds a licence but has not driven vocationally at all since they got it. Come 2019 are they going to have to sit through 70 hours before they can get behind the wheel? I suppose they could sit through ten days of the exact same course quite legitimately for that genuine Groundhog Day feeling.
Own Account Driver:
It’s unclear what the grandfather rights scenario is with someone who holds a licence but has not driven vocationally at all since they got it. Come 2019 are they going to have to sit through 70 hours before they can get behind the wheel? I suppose they could sit through ten days of the exact same course quite legitimately for that genuine Groundhog Day feeling.
My understanding is that the system has given them a ghost DQC date and therefore they are never allowed to do Mods 2 and 4, but they would simply have to take 35 hours asap before they can drive commerically.
Own Account Driver:
If you spend less than half your working hours, a year, behind the wheel of a 3.5t vehicle. Then I think you are almost certainly exempt.
I drive 18t rigid and will sometimes do artic now, certainly less than half working hours (though I don’t think that bit makes any odds).
The exemption that I believe covers me is this one
I take (lots) of AV equipment, worst case is an outside broadcast artic to an event, and operate as a video engineer or camera operator when there, and drive back (EU regs permitting). I am pretty sure this is exempt, driving isn’t my main job, being a video engineer is. The trucks only carry things I need when I am there.
The reasons my boss wants me to have CPC are:
-we don’t have time for arguments en route to events
-we sometimes drive in Europe and trying to argue these exemptions in a different country could be fun (though I think not an issue until 2016 due to delayed requirement in Germany and Holland)
I can see the logic behind it, and I will do it anyway, but it is still a bit annoying!
Own Account Driver:
ND888 BIGJ:
tommy t:
So if a driver who has the grandfather rights until sept this year doesn’t take his DCPC by then cannot drive commercially until they do the 35hrs presumably , Which could be taken at any time in the 5yrs following upto 2019, ? So those training companies who start to charge extortionate fees in the run up to 2014 could be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term, as people remember sh*t like thatThe way i understand it is grandfather right expire come september this year so the right to drive commercially expires sept 2014 not 2019 as you stated above ■■?
It’s unclear what the grandfather rights scenario is with someone who holds a licence but has not driven vocationally at all since they got it. Come 2019 are they going to have to sit through 70 hours before they can get behind the wheel? I suppose they could sit through ten days of the exact same course quite legitimately for that genuine Groundhog Day feeling.
It seems perfectly clear if you hold C1 or D1 and you got it automatically when you passed a car test then even if you hav’nt used it commercially you cant drive commercially after september 2014 unless you have done 35hrs DCPC training. You still get to keep C1 but can only use it privately ie horse box doing a house move ect ect
Maybe ROG can clarify this
th2013:
Own Account Driver:
It’s unclear what the grandfather rights scenario is with someone who holds a licence but has not driven vocationally at all since they got it. Come 2019 are they going to have to sit through 70 hours before they can get behind the wheel? I suppose they could sit through ten days of the exact same course quite legitimately for that genuine Groundhog Day feeling.My understanding is that the system has given them a ghost DQC date and therefore they are never allowed to do Mods 2 and 4, but they would simply have to take 35 hours asap before they can drive commerically.
Own Account Driver:
If you spend less than half your working hours, a year, behind the wheel of a 3.5t vehicle. Then I think you are almost certainly exempt.I drive 18t rigid and will sometimes do artic now, certainly less than half working hours (though I don’t think that bit makes any odds).
The exemption that I believe covers me is this one
Check if you need Driver CPC to drive a lorry, bus or coach - GOV.UK
I take (lots) of AV equipment, worst case is an outside broadcast artic to an event, and operate as a video engineer or camera operator when there, and drive back (EU regs permitting). I am pretty sure this is exempt, driving isn’t my main job, being a video engineer is. The trucks only carry things I need when I am there.The reasons my boss wants me to have CPC are:
-we don’t have time for arguments en route to events
-we sometimes drive in Europe and trying to argue these exemptions in a different country could be fun (though I think not an issue until 2016 due to delayed requirement in Germany and Holland)I can see the logic behind it, and I will do it anyway, but it is still a bit annoying!
The issue I was thinking of is once 2014 has gone then if you do the training after that, under grandfather’s rights you should be covered until 2019.
You are definitely exempt and appear to be exactly one of the activities they are aimed at. With the exemption the starting point to all of them is driving not being the principal activity before looking at the rest of the exemption. It doesn’t specify driving what vehicle. So, I presume, if the rest of your work time was driving a 3.5t van it’d be harder to argue exemption.
What is interesting with ‘driving not being the principal activity’ is it makes no specification over what timeframe this is. A lot of talk is about the working day but that is impractical really. I don’t think scaffolders are going to suddenly lose exemption simply because once in a blue moon they spend more of the day travelling than on site.
Own Account Driver:
th2013:
Own Account Driver:
It’s unclear what the grandfather rights scenario is with someone who holds a licence but has not driven vocationally at all since they got it. Come 2019 are they going to have to sit through 70 hours before they can get behind the wheel? I suppose they could sit through ten days of the exact same course quite legitimately for that genuine Groundhog Day feeling.My understanding is that the system has given them a ghost DQC date and therefore they are never allowed to do Mods 2 and 4, but they would simply have to take 35 hours asap before they can drive commerically.
Own Account Driver:
If you spend less than half your working hours, a year, behind the wheel of a 3.5t vehicle. Then I think you are almost certainly exempt.I drive 18t rigid and will sometimes do artic now, certainly less than half working hours (though I don’t think that bit makes any odds).
The exemption that I believe covers me is this one
Check if you need Driver CPC to drive a lorry, bus or coach - GOV.UK
I take (lots) of AV equipment, worst case is an outside broadcast artic to an event, and operate as a video engineer or camera operator when there, and drive back (EU regs permitting). I am pretty sure this is exempt, driving isn’t my main job, being a video engineer is. The trucks only carry things I need when I am there.The reasons my boss wants me to have CPC are:
-we don’t have time for arguments en route to events
-we sometimes drive in Europe and trying to argue these exemptions in a different country could be fun (though I think not an issue until 2016 due to delayed requirement in Germany and Holland)I can see the logic behind it, and I will do it anyway, but it is still a bit annoying!
The issue I was thinking of is once 2014 has gone then if you do the training after that, under grandfather’s rights you should be covered until 2019.
You are definitely exempt and appear to be exactly one of the activities they are aimed at. With the exemption the starting point to all of them is driving not being the principal activity before looking at the rest of the exemption. It doesn’t specify driving what vehicle. So, I presume, if the rest of your work time was driving a 3.5t van it’d be harder to argue exemption.
What is interesting with ‘driving not being the principal activity’ is it makes no specification over what timeframe this is. A lot of talk is about the working day but that is impractical really. I don’t think scaffolders are going to suddenly lose exemption simply because once in a blue moon they spend more of the day travelling than on site.
We hve a cpl of office staff and mechanics who do a school run once in a blue moon it takes less than 1hr but to save any confusion our company policy is if you have a license then you do the DCPC paid for by the compant of coarse
The issue of grandfather rights is simple.
On 10th September 2014 there is no longer any dcpc rights.
If you haven’t done 35 hrs you cant drive.
The rights expire on 2359 hrs 9th sept.
If you have done 28 hours sleeping on the 9th and your final 7 hours is booked on the 10th you dont get a dqc you get to resit 28 hours as the training clock resets.to zero
So come 10th September we all start our next 35 hours of dcpc training.
ND888 BIGJ:
Own Account Driver:
ND888 BIGJ:
tommy t:
So if a driver who has the grandfather rights until sept this year doesn’t take his DCPC by then cannot drive commercially until they do the 35hrs presumably , Which could be taken at any time in the 5yrs following upto 2019, ? So those training companies who start to charge extortionate fees in the run up to 2014 could be shooting themselves in the foot in the long term, as people remember sh*t like thatThe way i understand it is grandfather right expire come september this year so the right to drive commercially expires sept 2014 not 2019 as you stated above ■■?
It’s unclear what the grandfather rights scenario is with someone who holds a licence but has not driven vocationally at all since they got it. Come 2019 are they going to have to sit through 70 hours before they can get behind the wheel? I suppose they could sit through ten days of the exact same course quite legitimately for that genuine Groundhog Day feeling.
It seems perfectly clear if you hold C1 or D1 and you got it automatically when you passed a car test then even if you hav’nt used it commercially you cant drive commercially after september 2014 unless you have done 35hrs DCPC training. You still get to keep C1 but can only use it privately ie horse box doing a house move ect ect
Maybe ROG can clarify this
Yes but if you complete after sept, and let’s say ‘claim’ you have not driven commercially beforehand are you covered until 2019?
bertiebus:
The issue of grandfather rights is simple.
On 10th September 2014 there is no longer any dcpc rights.If you haven’t done 35 hrs you cant drive.
The rights expire on 2359 hrs 9th sept.
If you have done 28 hours sleeping on the 9th and your final 7 hours is booked on the 10th you dont get a dqc you get to resit 28 hours as the training clock resets.to zeroSo come 10th September we all start our next 35 hours of dcpc training.
Yes, this was my thinking but, it means, anyone who hasn’t already started might as well book after the 10th and be covered until 2019. Even in the, extremely unlikely, event of getting pulled in the tiny intervening period the saving in time and money is much more than the cost of a fixed penalty.
ND888 BIGJ:
Own Account Driver:
th2013:
Own Account Driver:
It’s unclear what the grandfather rights scenario is with someone who holds a licence but has not driven vocationally at all since they got it. Come 2019 are they going to have to sit through 70 hours before they can get behind the wheel? I suppose they could sit through ten days of the exact same course quite legitimately for that genuine Groundhog Day feeling.My understanding is that the system has given them a ghost DQC date and therefore they are never allowed to do Mods 2 and 4, but they would simply have to take 35 hours asap before they can drive commerically.
Own Account Driver:
If you spend less than half your working hours, a year, behind the wheel of a 3.5t vehicle. Then I think you are almost certainly exempt.I drive 18t rigid and will sometimes do artic now, certainly less than half working hours (though I don’t think that bit makes any odds).
The exemption that I believe covers me is this one
Check if you need Driver CPC to drive a lorry, bus or coach - GOV.UK
I take (lots) of AV equipment, worst case is an outside broadcast artic to an event, and operate as a video engineer or camera operator when there, and drive back (EU regs permitting). I am pretty sure this is exempt, driving isn’t my main job, being a video engineer is. The trucks only carry things I need when I am there.The reasons my boss wants me to have CPC are:
-we don’t have time for arguments en route to events
-we sometimes drive in Europe and trying to argue these exemptions in a different country could be fun (though I think not an issue until 2016 due to delayed requirement in Germany and Holland)I can see the logic behind it, and I will do it anyway, but it is still a bit annoying!
The issue I was thinking of is once 2014 has gone then if you do the training after that, under grandfather’s rights you should be covered until 2019.
You are definitely exempt and appear to be exactly one of the activities they are aimed at. With the exemption the starting point to all of them is driving not being the principal activity before looking at the rest of the exemption. It doesn’t specify driving what vehicle. So, I presume, if the rest of your work time was driving a 3.5t van it’d be harder to argue exemption.
What is interesting with ‘driving not being the principal activity’ is it makes no specification over what timeframe this is. A lot of talk is about the working day but that is impractical really. I don’t think scaffolders are going to suddenly lose exemption simply because once in a blue moon they spend more of the day travelling than on site.
We hve a cpl of office staff and mechanics who do a school run once in a blue moon it takes less than 1hr but to save any confusion our company policy is if you have a license then you do the DCPC paid for by the compant of coarse
With the way it is phrased I don’t think they would be exempt even though driving is not their principal activity as they are behaving like a vocational driver. Although, anyone that was doing driving for a tiny portion of their working time I do think they would have an uphill struggle to prosecute.
If though, the mechanics were say collecting an urgently required part or the office worker was picking up a photocopier or something else related to their work (ie tools and materials used in the course of) then they would be exempt.
It is very sloppily worded as it makes no mention of the vehicle solely carrying tools or materials used in the course of their work. Which gives rise to the idea that mechanics are ok if they take their tools with them and presumably office workers if they take their pencil case.
Own Account Driver:
bertiebus:
The issue of grandfather rights is simple.
On 10th September 2014 there is no longer any dcpc rights.If you haven’t done 35 hrs you cant drive.
The rights expire on 2359 hrs 9th sept.
If you have done 28 hours sleeping on the 9th and your final 7 hours is booked on the 10th you dont get a dqc you get to resit 28 hours as the training clock resets.to zeroSo come 10th September we all start our next 35 hours of dcpc training.
Yes, this was my thinking but, it means, anyone who hasn’t already started might as well book after the 10th and be covered until 2019. Even in the, extremely unlikely, event of getting pulled in the tiny intervening period the saving in time and money is much more than the cost of a fixed penalty.
But if you book 5x7 hrs 5th-9th sept you still get your card covering you until 2019 anyway so cant see your logic in waiting until after 19th sept
ND888 BIGJ:
Own Account Driver:
bertiebus:
The issue of grandfather rights is simple.
On 10th September 2014 there is no longer any dcpc rights.If you haven’t done 35 hrs you cant drive.
The rights expire on 2359 hrs 9th sept.
If you have done 28 hours sleeping on the 9th and your final 7 hours is booked on the 10th you dont get a dqc you get to resit 28 hours as the training clock resets.to zeroSo come 10th September we all start our next 35 hours of dcpc training.
Yes, this was my thinking but, it means, anyone who hasn’t already started might as well book after the 10th and be covered until 2019. Even in the, extremely unlikely, event of getting pulled in the tiny intervening period the saving in time and money is much more than the cost of a fixed penalty.
But if you book 5x7 hrs 5th-9th sept you still get your card covering you until 2019 anyway so cant see your logic in waiting until after 19th sept
Yes, but as someone has also posted above, it was my understanding that any days accrued prior to the sept deadline would be lost if the entire 35 hours is not completed by then. Therefore, there seems to be no incentive to anyone who hasn’t started doing so now unless a training company can guarantee providing the whole lot.
Own Account Driver:
th2013:
ND888 BIGJ:
Dont see why you dont treble your rates shep everybody has been aware they need to get qualified for around 5 years.I know what you are saying but it isn’t quite as simple as that. I started driving 16 months ago - had entirely desk job before that. I have had 16 months to do it. Now ok - that is plenty of time, and I didn’t get organised, my bad. But also consider that driving is only an occasional part of my job, not my entire working week, and hence fitting it in will be fun. It is actually questionable whether I need CPC as I believe I am exempt (I only drive AV equipment to events and then operate it and drive back) but my TM is adamant everyone needs it to keep things simple and Mr Plod / Vosa will not want to discuss exemptions on the roadside.
But if bloke from a different job sector and a pre-97 license starts driving commercially today, he now has 5 months to do 35 hours. I still think that the “grandad rights” on this are a curse not a blessing and should be ditched after September. The intent was surely that established drivers could do a course every month or two and slowly build up the hours, not put brand new drivers through 5 years worth of training in 5 months (which decreases every day that passes)
Ok, rant over!
If you spend less than half your working hours, a year, behind the wheel of a 3.5t vehicle. Then I think you are almost certainly exempt. VOSAs continued failure to officially accept exemptions, and with one embarassing back pedal under their belt already, will just end up creating a great sense of unfairness and ill-feeling that was completely unnecessary if the implementation had been better handled.
If you drive a 3.5 tonne vehicle then you are exempt…it’s not an LGV