del trotter:
Trucker-Millward:
How’s he breaking law by getting drivers who are self employed to work for him?Why would I walk a away when he’s going to train me up and get me qualified (PDP) and finally get my foot in the door of the Petroluem industry. Lol
You won’t fit the HMRC definition of self-employed therefore you open yourself up to a whole of misery tax wise, tell him to either employ you or jog on.
Ok thanks for your input.
Rjan:
Trucker-Millward:
How’s he breaking law by getting drivers who are self employed to work for him?Why would I walk a away when he’s going to train me up and get me qualified (PDP) and finally get my foot in the door of the Petroluem industry. Lol
Haha when was the last time you opened the Yellow Pages, hired a tradesman, and then you trained him up with the appropriate qualifications?
As others have said, you’re not really self-employed, you’re a casual (and depending on your actual pattern of work and the understandings that are in place between you and the employer, you may actually be a full-time employee). And both a casual and a regular employee can work for more than one employer (it’s almost implicit in being a casual that you will work for more than one employer, unless you’re independently wealthy or a pauper).
If you’re in any doubt about your status in the relationship, just ask yourself, “who’s boss” and “who does as they’re told”? Who has authority? We already know what the answer is.
It’s just an odds game whether the taxman comes back to you for the money and a penalty, although if you’re a gambling man then at the moment it’s probably better odds than the bookies offer - although the tide does seem to be turning.
Consider that cash-in-hand work still exists, but nobody even pretends that it’s legal or legitimate, and the problem with bogus “self-employment” is that when you claim to be self-employed, you receive bank transfers, have to keep records for 6 years, and you make yourself known to the taxman as a self-employed earner, whereas at least cash-in-hand work is completely under the table (so that 6 or 12 months down the line, nobody can prove you ever did any work or received any taxable earnings).
Ok thanks
Trucker-Millward:
del trotter:
Trucker-Millward:
How’s he breaking law by getting drivers who are self employed to work for him?Why would I walk a away when he’s going to train me up and get me qualified (PDP) and finally get my foot in the door of the Petroluem industry. Lol
You won’t fit the HMRC definition of self-employed therefore you open yourself up to a whole of misery tax wise, tell him to either employ you or jog on.
Ok thanks for your input.
Edited my post to include the HMRC definition,with what is proposing you ain’t going to meet their definition.
del trotter:
Can you create conditions to favour self employment?
If you want to substantiate a classification of a worker as self employed, we strongly recommend that you have drawn up and enforce a suitable contract defining the services provided. In line with the tests referred to above, you will need to give particular consideration to the following points:
Risk and Reward
One of the main requirements is that self employed workers bear some element of risk in the arrangement. Whenever possible this is best demonstrated where work is undertaken on the basis of a �price for the Job�. Ideally the price, scope, and timing of the work should be agreed, and evidenced in writing, before the job commences.Control
Self employed workers should exercise a significant degree of independent control over how they organise and carryout their work
Workmanship
Within reason, the more freedom the worker has in the detail of the way the work is carried out the better. You must also make it clear that the worker will have to put right any faulty work at his or her own expense.
Substitution
One of the strongest tests of self employment is the right to substitute a worker who is equally capable of carrying out the work.
Insurance
All self employed workers should hold public liability insurance and preferably professional indemnity insurance
Provision of equipment
Where practical, the worker should supply at least some of the important equipment or tools. Of course, the extent to which equipment is required depends upon the nature of the work.Workers who invoice for labour and materials are more likely to be viewed as Self-employed."
Just to add interpretation to this, “control” has always been king amongst the tests of employment - and what this means is “who has authority?”.
A relationship of authority, of master and servant, is something that is often easier to perceive than to describe in general terms.
Such a relationship may have no physical manifestation at all, in the sense that an experienced worker may not need to be given any actual direction, but represents a tacit understanding between two parties about who is really in charge - the reserved “right of control”, as it is described in case law.
If the employer stipulates a substitution clause or an insurance requirement in a contract, that can also just as easily be a manifestation of their control and authority, and a frippery of a sham contract, as opposed to the genuine trappings of an independent businessman.
If the supposed hirer is clearly in a far better organisational position than the supposed subcontractor to provide a substitute for the subcontractor’s own personal service - and that will often be the case where a hiring organisation has a workforce of tens or hundreds of one-man-band subcontractors who are not associates of one another, but can all be used interchangeably (and in varying amounts) by the hirer to cover the available work - then such a substitution clause really loses it’s character as being an indicia of an independent business on the part of each “subcontractor”.
Contrast that with the Ready Mixed Concrete case, where a group of owner-drivers cooperated amongst themselves to actually organise and employ a relief driver (at far lower rate of pay than they themselves were receiving as owner-drivers) to cover their work in their absence. It is not just the actuality of the substitution which was decisive in this case, but the fact that the owner-drivers could demonstrate that there was an organisation in place to provide that substitution - they had a man on the payroll on standby and ready to be substituted, and that was effected through an actual business association and financial links with each other (and not coordinated by the hirer). It was more than a driver just saying “well, I can ask my mate Bob if he’ll cover me if I’m off sick” - it’s saying “other drivers and I have a man, Bob, on our payroll to cover our inevitable sickness and holiday”.
As an aside, the danger for a hirer that actually did coordinate such an arrangement, is that by putting drivers in touch with each other as in the Ready Mixed case, they’d put in place the skeleton of a workplace union and foster solidarity.
And there is case law that minor equipment and low-value tools (or equipment that tends to be personal to a worker, like PPE, rather than “capital equipment”) are not inconsistent with employment either. So a clause which requires a “self-employed contractor” to provide their own gloves and hi-vis, will be ineffective in rebutting employee status.
I went to a legal briefing not long ago, and the very clear definition of being self employed was to have your own truck.
The way HMRC work is to focus on one industry, and sooner or later, it will be self employed truck drivers. Who aren’t really self employed as well.
By going self employed you are giving up rights such as, pension, holidays averaged out, SSP minimum (possibly more depending on your contract), security of work and employee rights. For a course.
Stay on the books with DHL. I say that as an employer.
Trucker-Millward:
robroy:
As said, just you crack on then mate.Yeah I will crack on but obviously iv come on here to ask about going self employed.
There’s a really explanation of what’s involved, how to do it, etc on the ‘return loads’ website
You need to read the article in Truckstop News issue 335 13th June.
BIG article on SE/Ltd drivers working for haulage companies driving THEIR trucks.
“Loophole” is closing and HMRC are coming and BIG tax bills back dated a few yrs are coming too!!!
“Public enquiry” On going and HMRC will have their pound of flesh as it’s NOT your decision if your SE/Ltd company driving another man’s truck,
your simply a PAYE employee!!!
Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
Most of the advice you are being offered here is good advice.
In short, provided you register as self employed and complete a self assessment and then declare all of your earnings - HMRC WILL NOT hunt you down for unpaid taxes.
However, if all of the work you do is through one customer and said customer is providing all the kit - then said customer is considered an employer by HMRC… if they get on to this they will take action against HIM - NOT you.
For your part, just play a straight hand and you’ll be ok.
FWIW, my wife is a Chartered Accountant.
Beyond this, there are much better ways of dealing with these issues, but to be fair your current level of understanding would make that difficult for me to help given the time constraints etc.
You might want to consider contacting a local accountant for better advice than you’re likely to get here.
I was self employed for years working for 2-3 different hauliers on a casual basis, no different to agency work really, just better money, it suits some people and I would imagine that a lot of the negative comments on here are from people who have only worked full time and never known any other way of doing things.
At the end of the day you’re getting paid to do a job, ok, it might be a grey area in the eyes of the taxman, but self employed people still pay tax and NI, and if I was a small business owner with small margins then I too would be put off employing people full time with all the rules and red tape etc, so if it works both ways then fine, crack on.
I never used an accountant, just kept good records of everything, kept receipts for what I could reasonably call expenses and did my own tax returns each year. Had to register first though, and that’s where they might stop you, as the comments above state, they’ve really tightened up on things in the last few years.
There is no requirement to register “first”. You will need to “Register” within 12 months of starting work as a self employed person / sole trader.
The best advice is to speak to a local “Chartered Accountant”… it will save you money.
GORDON 50:
I was self employed for years working for 2-3 different hauliers on a casual basis, no different to agency work really, just better money, it suits some people and I would imagine that a lot of the negative comments on here are from people who have only worked full time and never known any other way of doing things.
At the end of the day you’re getting paid to do a job, ok, it might be a grey area in the eyes of the taxman, but self employed people still pay tax and NI, and if I was a small business owner with small margins then I too would be put off employing people full time with all the rules and red tape etc, so if it works both ways then fine, crack on.
I never used an accountant, just kept good records of everything, kept receipts for what I could reasonably call expenses and did my own tax returns each year. Had to register first though, and that’s where they might stop you, as the comments above state, they’ve really tightened up on things in the last few years.
Thanks very useful!
Jingle Jon:
Most of the advice you are being offered here is good advice. Ignore Rob… he’s a gopping, bald ■■■■ having a mid-life spectacle crisis and believes he’s a mafia Don.In short, provided you register as self employed and complete a self assessment and then declare all of your earnings - HMRC WILL NOT hunt you down for unpaid taxes.
However, if all of the work you do is through one customer and said customer is providing all the kit - then said customer is considered an employer by HMRC… if they get on to this they will take action against HIM - NOT you.
For your part, just play a straight hand and you’ll be ok.
FWIW, my wife is a Chartered Accountant.
Thanks iv emailed a few local accountants.
Beyond this, there are much better ways of dealing with these issues, but to be fair your current level of understanding would make that difficult for me to help given the time constraints etc.
You might want to consider contacting a local accountant for better advice than you’re likely to get here.
Jingle Jon:
There is no requirement to register “first”. You will need to “Register” within 12 months of starting work as a self employed person / sole trader.The best advice is to speak to a local “Chartered Accountant”… it will save you money.
Thanks, iv emailed a few local accountants, awaiting replies
albion:
I went to a legal briefing not long ago, and the very clear definition of being self employed was to have your own truck.The way HMRC work is to focus on one industry, and sooner or later, it will be self employed truck drivers. Who aren’t really self employed as well.
By going self employed you are giving up rights such as, pension, holidays averaged out, SSP minimum (possibly more depending on your contract), security of work and employee rights. For a course.
The biggest dynamite for this industry is that he isn’t actually giving these rights up, except by his own forebearance on enforcing them. Any worker who can show that his self-employment was in fact bogus, is still entitled to employer pension contributions, holiday pay, and may (in cases where the worker can show they were actually a regular employee with continuous service) even be able to set up a claim for other rights like unfair dismissal or redundancy pay. These rights can’t be contracted out or waived in a way that prevents them arising. That’s what’s these recent “gig economy” cases have been about.
Interesting to note that other common law countries (in this case Australia) have held that the “sham” in bogus self-employment contracts can extent to the identity of the parties themselves (such as where an intermediary like an agency or other limited company is introduced between the true employer and the worker): eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2015/HCA/45
Rjan:
The biggest dynamite for this industry…45
Yes… and what HMRC are saying is their actions to rectify true employment status is about protecting both employees and tax money.
Regardless of the agreement between the OP and the company, HMRC have it within their means to recover over long periods. An agreement between OP and the company does not alter the law of the land… so he must cover himself and pay his taxes and let the company take whatever comes their way.
Big Truck:
You need to read the article in Truckstop News issue 335 13th June.
BIG article on SE/Ltd drivers working for haulage companies driving THEIR trucks.
“Loophole” is closing and HMRC are coming and BIG tax bills back dated a few yrs are coming too!!!“Public enquiry” On going and HMRC will have their pound of flesh as it’s NOT your decision if your SE/Ltd company driving another man’s truck,
your simply a PAYE employee!!!Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
Tosh!
No matter how many people that are self employed with just been a driver they could get away with it for ever or get found out very easily
If you work for only one company you are not self employed and you can not claim the perks that goes with self employed . and it will all catch up with you down the road and waiting there is a big big bill
If he can afford to pay you self employed money he can well afford to pay a wage
Honestscott76:
Big Truck:
You need to read the article in Truckstop News issue 335 13th June.
BIG article on SE/Ltd drivers working for haulage companies driving THEIR trucks.
“Loophole” is closing and HMRC are coming and BIG tax bills back dated a few yrs are coming too!!!“Public enquiry” On going and HMRC will have their pound of flesh as it’s NOT your decision if your SE/Ltd company driving another man’s truck,
your simply a PAYE employee!!!Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
Tosh!
So your saying the article in Truckstop News is a load of lies then!!!
Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
Be prepared to be ■■■■■■ over in the future. Self Employed drivers are being cracked down on because they and their employer are breaking the law.
If you dont own your own truck or hold your own operators licence, as far as Im concerned you are NOT self employed as you are using employer equipment, employer operating licence and I bet you wont be paying for your own diesel.
It is a huge fiddle propogated by agencies and scumbag hauliers who dont want to pay holiday, sick pay, NI, tax and employment rights.
More fool you mate. It will bite you in the arse as you have zero commitments from any company. They can drop you in a heartbeat.
Big Truck:
Honestscott76:
Big Truck:
You need to read the article in Truckstop News issue 335 13th June.
BIG article on SE/Ltd drivers working for haulage companies driving THEIR trucks.
“Loophole” is closing and HMRC are coming and BIG tax bills back dated a few yrs are coming too!!!“Public enquiry” On going and HMRC will have their pound of flesh as it’s NOT your decision if your SE/Ltd company driving another man’s truck,
your simply a PAYE employee!!!Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
Tosh!
So your saying the article in Truckstop News is a load of lies then!!!
Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk
The rules at the moment allow this and are written into law. HMRC are NOT able to change the law, neither can they backdate laws IF they are changed in the future. There’s been discussion about similar issues for some time - however simply changing the law will have a huge knock-on effect that will seriously damage a wide range of businesses.
As for the truth or accuracy of an article… irrelevant what publishers pint… they are at liberty to report as they see fit. FWIW… Tosh… not the same as liars - is it?
