Rolls-royce diesel engines (later perkins)

UK PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS FORUMS OLD TIME LORRIES, COMPANIES AND DRIVERS (INTERACT
41

Bewick:

bma.finland:
al lorries are individuals ,like women,s you have to learn and listen to get along whit them.we have to sxxxxa of same year and they are total different in brakes,chlutch ,shifting and to drive, all other same spec,thought one is L one G series

Are you sure the two sxxxa’s aren’t a Male and a female reindeer bma.,sounds like they could be to me so they will be very different !! hej benkku Dennis.

could be,thought neighter have the stucks standing up ,so :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: cheers benkku

42

gingerfold:
And another …“what if”…Paul Gardner had persuaded the rest of his family to buy the Shrewsbury engine factory when RR went bankrupt in the early 1970s.

Evening Gentlemen, excellent point gingerfold…what if??

You have more “intimate” knowlege of “corporate” Gardner than most of us, but am I correct in my recollection that at the time of Rolls financial failure Gardner were not exactly in a position to do , (even had they wanted to), due to their own internal affairs, anything about acquiring the Rolls diesel engine business?

Almost certainly the financial disaster at Rolls Royce caused major concern within Whitehall, continuity of the V8 & 12cylinder engine, and spares supply, must have been the driver in putting Vickers into the frame. Shrewsbury, for many years had ploughed a lonely furrow, in particular starved of development cash. Brian Leverton, Shrewsburys Engineering head operated a virtually self financing Development department.

I can remember Rolls engineers borowing Gardner piston and ring sets, from Gordon Cadwalladers comprehensive parts stock at Oswestry, (for even in those “pre Volvo” days, Russell, and Gordon held a parts stock at Morda that considerably exceeded any that a main dealer would hold)! for “evaluation”, (though why they did not buy a set, heaven knows, Gardner parts were always the cheapest in terms of capital cost by far! And Cadwalladers were not the only Shropshire operator to have visits from “the works”. Whatever financial constraints Rolls had, they certainly were involved in the “grass roots” market.

If you look at the performance characteristics of the Rolls engine, and its development into its ultimate form, as the Perkins Eagle, (designed by Rolls Royce), I suppose it was the first attempt by a British manufacturer to design a “contemporary” high torque rise diesel, to meet projected EEC standards in emissions, and give economic fuel useage to rival that of the acknowleged UK market leader in that area, Gardner.

Early examples had quality issues, of that there is no doubt, some could be attributed to poor quality component supply, coupled to poor bought in, component quality inspection control at Shrewsbury. But quality improved, enough to give a two year warranty, and under Perkins control, that increased to five years! And not backed by an insurance company, they took it on the chin, and underwrote it themselves. That the engines were economic cannot be denied, and they were always “driveable”, and responsive.

bma sums it up neatly,“lorries are like women”! gingerfold, and cav551s comments support this, they perform, in the main, how you have treated them, generally the later Rolls performed well, pretty well despite how you treated them!!!

But what if Gardner?? Just may be , Eagles produced by Gardner would still be around, as perhaps would Gardner, but sadly I expect Morrisons would still occupy the Sentinal works site, and manufacture would have moved, “up north”. I shall away to drown my sad thoughts with a (large) glass of Bollinger. And remember that distinctive exhaust note, and the sudden surge of power as the gradient bit. Cheerio for now

43

Saviem:
Evening Gentlemen, Rolls Diesels, an emotive brand! You either like them, or loath them!

Shrewsburys largest employer in 79, 3600 employees. Then in 79, due to a change in their clients national management, they lost the engine business for Irans tanks. 81, still Shrewsburys biggest employer, 2000 on the payroll. By 1984, when Vickers shareholders made 2million profit by selling Rolls Diesels to Massey Ferguson owned Perkins, for 17.4 million, it was still Shrewsburys biggest employer, 1300 on the payroll. Now the site is a Morrison Supermarket, and housing, it is not Shrewsburys biggest employer!! Sort of a British national trend is it not?

Is that the Lancaster Road Perkins that has closed? :open_mouth: I used to know a few people from there, all great blokes, inc. Dave who was (and almost certainly still is) THE truck engine expert. I recall another factory (which I think had Rolls Royce) on the sign on the road into the town centre but didn’t know much about that place.
Not been there for probably 12 years or so now so not up to speed, but I’ll be gutted if Lancaster Road has closed.

44

Yes Saviem, you are quite correct. Gardner would have struggled to finance the aquisition of RR Shrewsbury in 1973 (I think it was without checking).

45

The mention of the bouncy throttle on the 220’s jogged my memory regarding the few Rolls powered Guy’s we had, they were awful, about 45 mph flat out and if you hit a bump they would kangeroo with the throttle bouncing on and off by itself !
We had far more 280’s and they were absolutely cracking, no bouncy throttle and pulled like trains, the later Guy’s and Seddon’s came with the 265 but pulled the same and even looked the same, so I often wondered whether they were and if the bhp stated just simply used a different rating, anyone know?

46

Served my time working for a Rolls Royce agent between 76 and 80.An eternal problem was the injector sleeves.To roll the sleeves on a non tilt cab,Scammell ,ERF,Atki etc,really was a full days work,and we used to see a lot coming in for this repair.Having had a crusader myself I can definately say anything else was QUIETER to drive.Give me a 14 litre ■■■■■■■ any day

47

Trev_H:
The mention of the bouncy throttle on the 220’s jogged my memory regarding the few Rolls powered Guy’s we had, they were awful, about 45 mph flat out and if you hit a bump they would kangeroo with the throttle bouncing on and off by itself !
We had far more 280’s and they were absolutely cracking, no bouncy throttle and pulled like trains, the later Guy’s and Seddon’s came with the 265 but pulled the same and even looked the same, so I often wondered whether they were and if the bhp stated just simply used a different rating, anyone know?

Hi Trev. IIRC, the 265L was RR’s first attempt at a “high torque rise” engine, in the same vein as the Scania 141 and E290 ■■■■■■■■ I guess it had a bit more grunt than a 280, but a lower governed speed, hence the lower power rating. Unfortunately, I do not have the numbers to hand- does anyone have a spec. sheet for this engine?

48

Anorak forget all this guff on this thread the ■■■■■■■ thread and the gardner thread go to Wikipedia type in what you want and it will give you all you need straight from the horses mouth not this absolute rubbish quoted by so many on this forum, you want facts not supposition happy searching ,regards Crow.

49

Gingerfold » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:10 am
Windrush wrote:-
Bradfordlad9999 wrote:-
great engine we had the 265 li the 300tx 335 and the 375 never no trouble the 265 li was bullet proof they ran from 1985 to 1999 with out no mager problams
Windrush replied:-
It appears that some companies had a trouble free experience with them, as we did, and others suffered problems which I guess can be said about every make of lorry and every make and type of engine. One operator will praise them and the next will tell a different tale, just down to the luck of the draw I suppose? Funny old world aint it!
Pete.
Gingerfold replied:-
An excellent point made. There was always a rogue engine / lorry from every manufacturer. Plus factor in differing driving styles, driver abuse or non-abuse, servicing schedules, frequency of oil and filter changes etc. etc. I can recall some drivers who would start an engine from cold and keep their foot flat to the board as soon as it fired revving at maximum. Others would let a cold engine fire and immediately it did so ease right back on the accelerator. Which engine would be in better condition after 250,000 miles? I’ve driven identical lorries of the same age in the same fleet and they have performed completely differently.

VALKYRIE writes:-
ROLLS-ROYCE DIESEL ENGINES (LATER PERKINS).

YOU CANNOT PLEASE ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME - But You Can Please The Majority Of People!
The above famous and wise statement,plus my equally wise add-on statement-slogan,and the wise comments of Windrush -Pete,and Gingerfold,obviously applies to Rolls-Royce Automotive Diesel Engines.
And thanks to all the Lorry Enthusiasts who responded to this thread,and of these people six were negative,about four were neutral and the remaining sixteen were POSITIVE about Rolls-Royce Diesel Engines! And the above statements and comments also apply to Rolls-Royce Motorcars!
Of the two people who commentated on Rolls-Royce Motorcars,they were both in the negative.
I do admit that some motoring writers have suggested that Mercedes-Benz now make the best qualty motorcars in the world (and I’m a Mercedes-Benz admirer - and a Rolls-Royce one).But there are other contenders such as Maybach (a Mercedes-Benz owned marque) and Bentley…plus Lexus,
Lincoln and Cadillac.
Nevertheless,nobody can escape Rolls-Royce’s immortal and legendary slogan:“Rolls-Royce,The Best Motorcar In The World”,and I’m sure that the Rolls-Royce Motorcar Division of Rolls-Royce,and now BMW,have always strived to ensure that the above slogan is objectively true.Rolls-Royce have been
making motorcars since 1904,and they are bound to have had a few problems since that time,but the vast majority of customers of Rolls-Royce Motorcars,including this long list of famous owners:-
rolls-royce.150m.com/famous_ … dexen.html
,are satisfied with their Rolls-Royce Motorcars.
Oh,by the way,South Yorkshire Transport,later Mainline,and now First Bus,operated a large fleet of Rolls-Royce Eagle 220 Diesel-engined Dennis Dominator Double Decker Buses from the early 1980s to around 2006 or so.And many of these operated in the tough hilly terrains of Sheffield (it’s especially hilly in Sheffield) and Rotherham and certain other hilly districts.This is why South Yorkshire specified the Rolls-Royce engine,while most or all other operators of the Dennis Dominator had the underpowered Gardner 6LXB 180 engine option.These Rolls-Royce-engined Dennis Dominators were quite successful and reliable - so that is the seventeenth positive comment!
ROLLS-ROYCE C-RANGE AUTOMOTIVE DIESEL ENGINES.
All the comments in this thread have been about the Rolls-Royce Eagle Diesel Engines,but has anyone any comments to make about the great Rolls-Royce C-Range Automotive Diesel Engines?
Here are photographic reminders of what heavy motor vehicles these reliable engines powered:-
Diamond T 981 6x4 Road Locomotive-Tank Transporter,BSL 932.
Preserved ex-British Military Army Tank Transporter,powered by a Rolls-Royce C6N Diesel Engine:-
flickr.com/photos/27634291@N08/6026172754/
Rotinoff Super Atlantic G7 6x4 Heavy Haulage Road Locomotive,Q43 GFR,EXCALIBUR.Preserved.Parnabys,powered by a Rolls-Royce C8SFL Diesel Engine:-
flickr.com/photos/27634291@N08/6026172754/

Thornycroft Mighty Antar Mk3A 6x4 Tractive Unit-Articulated Tank Transporter Lorry.Preserved ex-British Army lorry,powered by a Rolls-Royce C8SFL-843 Diesel Engine:-
flickr.com/photos/38389354@N07/4629102790/

Foden S20 KR6/24 8x4 Thompson Tank Python Mk II Articulated Aeroplane Refueller,Esso.Powered by a Rolls-Royce C6NFR Diesel Engine:-
google.com/imgres?q=Foden+AI … s:12,i:126

Euclid R-22 22-Ton 4x2 Dump Truck,engine options included a Rolls-Royce C6SFL Diesel Engine:-
equipmentimages.net/image/eq … _r22_1.jpg

Scammell Constructor,Fixedside Ballast Box-bodied,6x6 Road Locomotive,PSJ 815.Preserved ex-Royal Air Force lorry,powered by a Rolls-Royce C6NFL-142A Diesel Engine:-
miliblog.co.uk/wp-content/upload … sj-815.jpg

Scammell Super Constructor 6x6 Heavy Haulage Road Locomotive,Chassis No.15235,registered 447 DPY,originally operated by Sunter Brothers,and now being restored:-
flickr.com/photos/47995614@N04/4423834443/

Scammell Super Constructor 6x6 Heavy Haulage Road Locomotive,Chassis No.20897,registered KVN 860E,also operated by Sunter Brothers,and now in preservation:-
flickr.com/photos/piccies484/5192518474/

Both above Scammell Road Locomotives are powered by Rolls-Royce C6SFL Diesel Engines.
And here is another photograph of KVN 860E:-
s456.photobucket.com/albums/qq28 … ter=images

Foden S20 FRHT6/80 6x4 Heavy Haulage Road Locomotive,ODB 793,THE BIG BOPPER,operated by Edward Beck,and powered by a Rolls-Royce C6NFL Diesel Engine:-
flickr.com/photos/edward_beck/6997467381/

Atkinson Omega 6x6 Tractive Unit,powered by a Rolls-Royce C6TFL Diesel Engine:-
google.com/imgres?q=ATKINSON … s:12,i:167

Atkinson L1786,Bowfront-cabbed,Flat-bodied,8x4 Lorry,JCN 965,of 1959 and operated by Cawthorne and Sinclair Ltd,Birtley,Co.Durham.Engines options for Atkinson lorries in this era included the AEC 9.6 and 11.3 and Rolls-Royce C6NFR Diesel Engines:-
autowp.ru/pictures/seddon_at … _8x4_1.jpg

The above Atkinson lorry is NOT a Black Knight model - this model came along in late 1965.

Rolls-Royce Limited,Rolls-Royce Oil Engine Division,a wonderfully evocative advertisement:-
flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/7585023618/

Scammell Constructor 6x6 Heavy Haulage Road Locomotive,NAJ 920,this beautiful and charismatic lorry was operated by Sunter Brothers and is powered by a Rolls-Royce C6NFL Diesel Engine:-

Scammell Constructor 6x6 Heavy Haulage Road Locomotive,PUC 475,is another beautiful and iconic Scammell lorry,and is also powered by a Rolls-Royce C6NFL Diesel Engine,was operated by Pickfords Heavy Haulage and is now preserved:-

It should not be forgotten that the Rolls-Royce Shrewsbury factory had a great engineering heritage:-Besides being used for the manufacture of Rolls-Royce Diesel Engines,this factory was built in 1915 for Alley and MacLellan to build Sentinel Steam Lorries and Steam,and later Diesel,Railway Locomotives,and so on.After 1945 Sentinel built a range of lorries,motorcoaches,
buses,aeroplane haulers,railway locomotives,etc.Sentinel was bought by Rolls-Royce in 1956,and continued to build railway locomotives,which were named Rolls-Royce Sentinel.
The address of the factory,even in Perkins ownership,included the following:Sentinel Works.

ROLLS-ROYCE,the most prestigious marque name in British Engineering.

VALKYRIE.

50

A flavour of just how noisy a Roller can be!

youtube.com/watch?v=8lnQRWuQ … ure=fvwrel

51

In winter they were always like this youtube.com/watch?v=8fZArgej5Zs

52

geoffthecrowtaylor:
Anorak forget all this guff on this thread the ■■■■■■■ thread and the gardner thread go to Wikipedia type in what you want and it will give you all you need straight from the horses mouth not this absolute rubbish quoted by so many on this forum, you want facts not supposition happy searching ,regards Crow.

Hi

It is very unwise to rely on Wikipedia, which is hardly Encyclopaedia Britania, and is again a series of opinions and thoughts that can be from time to time very inaccurate

Carl

53

We had a C series engine at the quarry fitted into a compressor for driving the blasting drill and I cant recall it being any problem, though it was eventually replaced with a ■■■■■■■ powered machine.
I attended a repair course at R/R Shrewsbury back in 1981, on the Eagle series, and they had a ‘Black Museum’ of components that had failed in service. Most of the problems could be laid firmly at the ‘Lack of Maintenance’ door, crank bearings that had been destroyed by running low on oil plus a set of piston rings from a Scammell that looked like strips of wire, the owner had tried to claim for a new engine under warranty until it was discovered that it had been running on fly ash with no airfilter fitted because it kept getting clogged up!! :blush: End of warranty claim.
I dont remember any injector sleeve problems either, had plenty in the past with BMC diesels though, but as I said my engine hadn’t had the injectors removed in the ten years that I drove it. The odd waterpump failed though, and I had a fuel pump drive coupling collapse because Foden’s had fitted a new compressor under warranty and forgot to tighten the coupling bolts. :unamused:

Pete.

54

When I started on Air Products they still had quite a few of the old Sed Atki 401s, personally I liked those old motors, but I was put opposite (double-shift/days-nights) a long term bloke Barry who had the newest Sed Atki Strato on the fleet at 2 weeks old, we ran about 12 Strato’s out of Didcot but only 2 of them had the Rolls/Perkins 325 in, the others all ■■■■■■■ 325s. But speaking purely from a drivers point of view she was an absolute flyer, they all had the twin-splitter box (a box I would always request if I was given a choice) but the ■■■■■■■ could never have me on the hills, occasionally I would drive a ■■■■■■■ but the high reving engine was why they couldn’t take me, you’d hit the bottom of a hill together but when they took their foot off the gas to split down the revs wouldn’t drop fast enough for it to go through, so you’d hit the gas & that old Come-along would just scream stuck betwen gears, where-as with a quick blip on the throttle my Roller was in & I was pulling, you could kick the gear through with the clutch-break on the ■■■■■■■ but it wasn’t as quick! I had that Strato for 5 & half years, considering she was double-shifted all week reliability was great, other than routine servicing she never missed a beat :smiley:
Chrisl

55

adr:
When I started on Air Products they still had quite a few of the old Sed Atki 401s, personally I liked those old motors, but I was put opposite (double-shift/days-nights) a long term bloke Barry who had the newest Sed Atki Strato on the fleet at 2 weeks old, we ran about 12 Strato’s out of Didcot but only 2 of them had the Rolls/Perkins 325 in, the others all ■■■■■■■ 325s. But speaking purely from a drivers point of view she was an absolute flyer, they all had the twin-splitter box (a box I would always request if I was given a choice) but the ■■■■■■■ could never have me on the hills, occasionally I would drive a ■■■■■■■ but the high reving engine was why they couldn’t take me, you’d hit the bottom of a hill together but when they took their foot off the gas to split down the revs wouldn’t drop fast enough for it to go through, so you’d hit the gas & that old Come-along would just scream stuck betwen gears, where-as with a quick blip on the throttle my Roller was in & I was pulling, you could kick the gear through with the clutch-break on the ■■■■■■■ but it wasn’t as quick! I had that Strato for 5 & half years, considering she was double-shifted all week reliability was great, other than routine servicing she never missed a beat :smiley:
Chrisl

Evening all, Chris, b… hell, I can identify with everything you have written!! Does it mean Im not yet past my sell by date!!! Oh pure joy!! thanks for that, Cheerio for now.