Quickie, WTD regarding break, Training centre issue

ASK THE EXPERTS SAFETY, LAW AND WORKING TIME DIRECTIVE FORUM (INTE
1

Had the guy from the training centre come in today for some assessment and a Q+A thing,

1 of the questions (left the folder at work so cant quote it word for word)
According to the WTD how long from starting duty before a break must be taken and how long should that break last?
I answered 'You can take a break after 1 minutes duty time and no later than 6 hours duty time from start, this break must be a minimum of 15 minutes as we sometimes do a Saturday 6 hour shift, and if were doing between 6 and 9 then its a minimum of 30.

I got told by the trainer that the minimum break should be 30 mins regardless, I am sure he’s wrong.
for the past couple of years ive generally done a 15 with in 6 followed by a 30 later on withing the 9 and never had a pull.

2

That’s driving hours, not Working Time Directive.

3

The Sarge:
That’s driving hours, not Working Time Directive.

My point is I answered what I do and have been doing, yet he says what I am doing is wrong,

4

I don’t think that many in the industry bother checking the WTD breaks…

5

not the correct wording, 15 minutes at or before 6 hours, 30 mins before 9 hours, 45 if over 9 hours, breaksmust be of at least 15 mins duration.

B1GGK your basically right, tell the knob to read GV262 revised 2007 properly and he’ll soon get it.

6

You may be confusing the driving time with the RTD.

You can drive for 1 minute and take a 15 minute break, you could then drive 4.29 and take a 30 minute break and then drive another 4.5 hours before taking another 45 or parking up

For the RTD the break required at or before 6 hours work, not duty time is 15 minutes, so you could start work and, drive for 1 minute, have 2.30 hours POA, then drive for 3.30 hours, you have still only been working for 3h.31m

But the WTD says at or before 6 hours a break must be taken, for the WTD a break can be split into 15 minute segments.

7

B1 GGK:
Had the guy from the training centre come in today for some assessment and a Q+A thing,

1 of the questions (left the folder at work so cant quote it word for word)
According to the WTD how long from starting duty before a break must be taken and how long should that break last?
I answered 'You can take a break after 1 minutes duty time and no later than 6 hours duty time from start, this break must be a minimum of 15 minutes as we sometimes do a Saturday 6 hour shift, and if were doing between 6 and 9 then its a minimum of 30.

I got told by the trainer that the minimum break should be 30 mins regardless, I am sure he’s wrong.
for the past couple of years ive generally done a 15 with in 6 followed by a 30 later on withing the 9 and never had a pull.

The trainer is wrong as many seem to be on this issue :unamused:

For the WTD the regulations state that you must have a break before exceeding 6 hours working time, the duration of this break is not stipulated in the RT(WT)R 2005 so it’s assumed to be the shortest break that will count for the working time regulations which is 15 minutes.

If you work between 6 and 9 hours working time you should have a total of 30 minutes break for the working time regulations, this break can be split into parts of no less than 15 minutes each, one of which should be taken before exceeding 6 hours working time.

Example: You could have a 15 minute break before exceeding 6 hours working time and another 15 minute break to be completed before reaching the end of the shift at or before 9 hours working time.

If you work over 9 hours working time you should have a break of no less than 45 minutes again it can be split into parts of no less than 15 minutes each one of which should be taken before exceeding 6 hours working time.

Example: You could have a 15 minute break before exceeding 6 hours working time and another two 15 minute breaks or one 30 minute break to be completed before reaching the end of the shift, but at no time during the shift should your working time exceed 6 hours without having a break of at least 15 minutes.

The breaks taken for the working time regulations should interrupt the shift so should not continue from the end of the daily rest period at the start of the shift or extend onto the daily rest period at the end of the shift.

Breaks taken for the working time regulations count for the driver and tachograph regulations and vise versa as long as they are appropriate.

Once again we see a trainer getting it wrong on the issue of breaks to be taken for the 6 hour rule :imp:

8

MADBAZ:
not the correct wording, 15 minutes at or before 6 hours, 30 mins before 9 hours, 45 if over 9 hours, breaksmust be of at least 15 mins duration.

No requirement to have completed 30 minutes break before exceeding 9 hours work. If you are working over 9 hours then the next break following the first 15 minutes is 6 hours work from the end of that break of before the end of the shift, whichever comes first.

9

Ive been taught 30 mins before 6 hrs and a total of no less than 45 mins before 9 hrs unles driving time exceeds 4:.30 then a full 45 mins, then both wtd and eec reg starts again , This is what we was shown, and myself have had to have tacho rule councelling and how they interprit those regulations … I also have never had a infringments for break times since, and we have had Vosene in to check records :smiley:

10

OTS:
Ive been taught 30 mins before 6 hrs and a total of no less than 45 mins before 9 hrs unles driving time exceeds 4:.30 then a full 45 mins, then both wtd and eec reg starts again ,

You have been taught incorrectly, 15 minutes before six hours and no requirement for any more before exceeding 9 hours. Next break(s) is requires before exceeding another 6 hours or before the end of shift whichever comes first.

Here is the actual wording on break from the WTD regulations.

Breaks
This section has no associated Explanatory Memorandum

7.–(1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.

(2) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

(3) Where a mobile worker’s working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.

(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each.

Section 4 tells you that the minimum is indeed 15 not 30 minutes. Section 1 tells you you must have a break before exceeding 6 hours work, it does not say you must have a 30 minute break so teh minimum break applies, 15 minutes as defined in section 4. You don’t apply both sections 2 and 3, which is what you are doing by taking more break before exceeding 9 hours. You apply the one which fits your situation and ignore the other one. So, up to 9 hours work you apply section 2 and ignore 3 and for more than 9 hours work you apply section 3 and ignore 2.

Check out this thread which contains a copy of an email from the Department for Transport, the department who run VOSA, confirming it is only 15 minutes required before exceeding 6 hours

viewtopic.php?t=39840

OTS:
This is what we was shown, and myself have had to have tacho rule councelling and how they interprit those regulations … I also have never had a infringments for break times since, and we have had Vosene in to check records :smiley:

You won’t get infringements because you are having more break than is the minimum requirement to comply with the regulations. That’s great if your company are happy for you to do that and you get paid for the breaks but a bit of a bugger if you want to get home a bit earlier.

11

OTS:
Ive been taught 30 mins before 6 hrs and a total of no less than 45 mins before 9 hrs unles driving time exceeds 4:.30 then a full 45 mins, then both wtd and eec reg starts again , This is what we was shown, and myself have had to have tacho rule councelling and how they interprit those regulations … I also have never had a infringments for break times since, and we have had Vosene in to check records :smiley:

You were taught wrong then, but if you can get away with a 30 minute break and you get paid, then all power to your elbow.

Vosa have almost admitted they are not enforcing RTD
roadtransport.com/Articles/2 … uliers.htm

nick2008:

tony66:

masetheace:
2 hours other work and up to 5 hours driving in a day, but i take all breaks legally, ie 15 minutes within the first 6 hours for the WTD.

Think you should be takeing 30 minutes when at 6 hours not 15

Unless your working shift is 9 hrs or under the only requierment is to take 15min at 6hrs then the other 15min befor the end of your shift and not befor you start your daily rest
The following is a copy of the E-mails sent and received from Steve Oliver

Dear Mr Enquirer

Thank you for your further email of 29 October regarding breaks under the Working Time Directive for mobile workers.

Yes, the example given in your email is correct. The driver has not done enough actual driving to qualify for a break under the EU rules. But the 6 hours of total work means a break must be taken (of at least 15 minutes) for the purposes of the Working Time rules. As he will be working for a total of 9 hours then 30 minutes of total breaks must be taken.

Yours Sincerely

Steve Oliver

Policy Advisor
Freight and Logistics Division

Department for Transport
Zone 2/14 Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London SW1P 4DR

Tel: 020 7944 2756
Fax: 020 7944 2928

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 14:10:48 +0000
From: Steve.Oliver@dft.gsi.gov.uk
To: @hotmail.co.uk
Subject: re: Working Time Directive

Dear Mr

Thank you for your email of 27 September to the Department for Transport regarding the guidance for Working Time.

Your understanding of the break requirements is not entirely correct. It is not the case that you have to take 30 minutes break immediately after 6 hours work. You must take a 15 minute break (as a break is required after 6 hours work and all breaks must be at least 15 minutes in length).

If you are going to be working between 6 and 9 hours then you must take a total of 30 minutes break. The second 15 minute break could be taken later on, and does not have to be taken straight away.

I hope that clarifies things for you, but let me know if you have any more questions.

Yours Sincerely

Steve Oliver

Policy Advisor
Freight and Logistics Division

Department for Transport
Zone 2/14 Great Minster House
76 Marsham Street
London SW1P 4DR

Tel: 020 7944 2756
Fax: 020 7944 2928

From the main man that was