Bking:
Can you tell me where I can buy one of your super engines where I get more power out than the engine put out.?
Same place that sells diesel engines that can’t runaway - they won’t stock load sensing valves though because they actually exist. 
Own Account Driver:
Bking:
Can you tell me where I can buy one of your super engines where I get more power out than the engine put out.?Same place that sells diesel engines that can’t runaway - they won’t stock load sensing valves though because they actually exist.
Here is as good an explanation as any:
Bking:
Can you tell me where I can buy one of your super engines where I get more power out than the engine put out.?
you need to understand that Torque is not Work.
For instance I can generate more torque than a Scania 16L 730hp engine can at its flywheel by simply sitting on the open end of a farmers gate.
14 stone at 14 foot = 2744 lb ft
the Scania can only ever develop 2580 lb ft (at its flywheel)
of course attach the Scania engine to a wheel via a 16:1 crawler gear and you will be producing around 35,000 lb ft of torque. (inc 15% drivetrain loss)
Bluey Circles:
Bking:
Can you tell me where I can buy one of your super engines where I get more power out than the engine put out.?you need to understand that Torque is not Work.
Torque is work.Power is just the resulting figure of multiplying it by speed.Whis is why that 730 hp Scania is going no where without gearbox and final drive reduction.
Carryfast:
Torque is work.Power is just the resulting figure of multiplying it by speed.Whis is why that 730 hp Scania is going no where without gearbox and final drive reduction.
No … Torque is not work, it is a turning force. For example; if I was to sit on open end of a 14’ field gate, my 14 stone would create a turning force (Torque) of 2744 pound foot, now providing the hinges remain good and don’t fail due to this immense force (and providing the farmer does not come along and batter me for being a tw4t) I will not be doing any ‘work’ or expanding any energy. Hence Torque is not work.
Bluey Circles:
Carryfast:
Torque is work.Power is just the resulting figure of multiplying it by speed.Whis is why that 730 hp Scania is going no where without gearbox and final drive reduction.No … Torque is not work, it is a turning force. For example; if I was to sit on open end of a 14’ field gate, my 14 stone would create a turning force (Torque) of 2744 pound foot, now providing the hinges remain good and don’t fail due to this immense force (and providing the farmer does not come along and batter me for being a tw4t) I will not be doing any ‘work’ or expanding any energy. Hence Torque is not work.
You’ve contradicted yourself because ‘force’ means ‘work’.
Your example isn’t work because the gate’s hinges are acting as a brake and therefore won’t allow the ‘force’ to be turned into movement ( power ).As opposed to applying that same torque to an un braked shaft in which case you’ve got the power created by that ‘force’ multiplied by whatever speed it can reach for as long as it can maintain it.In just the same way that attaching a 14 foot bar to the hub of a wheel and then applying a 14 stone weight to the end of it won’t be able to make it do anything ‘until’ you release the brake. 
The dictionary and textbook definition of “Work” is “Work = Force x Distance”.
No matter how much force or torque is applied, if no movement occurs no “work” is done.
Buckstones:
The dictionary and textbook definition of “Work” is “Work = Force x Distance”.No matter how much force or torque is applied, if no movement occurs no “work” is done.
Torque is force x distance.As I said apply torque to an unbraked shaft/wheel and it will move.That’s how an engine works whether it’s a water wheel or a truck engine.
Buckstones:
The dictionary and textbook definition of “Work” is “Work = Force x Distance”.No matter how much force or torque is applied, if no movement occurs no “work” is done.
^^^ exactly.
Oh my gawd ! I don’t remember ever before seeing so much trouble caused by one poxy troll It’s bleeding obvious that kingy doesn’t have a clue what he’s on about, so why bovver ? I can just see him wetting his mums knickers… until she catches him and makes him do things to her again.
peterm:
Oh my gawd ! I don’t remember ever before seeing so much trouble caused by one poxy troll
To be fair it’s moved on now to whether torque means ‘work’.In which case if it doesn’t Bking is right because we won’t need all that gear reduction anyway because we’ve got enough power at the crankshaft. 
Carryfast:
Buckstones:
The dictionary and textbook definition of “Work” is “Work = Force x Distance”.No matter how much force or torque is applied, if no movement occurs no “work” is done.
Torque is force x distance.As I said apply torque to an unbraked shaft/wheel and it will move.That’s how an engine works whether it’s a water wheel or a truck engine.
Work = Force x Distance moved (not simply force x distance). i.e. If the object upon which the force is exerted doesn’t move, no work is done. The SI unit of work is the Joule, which is the work expended by a force of 1 Newton moving through a distance of 1 metre. This is where the confusion between torque and work arises. This confusion is not helped by the fact that the term Newton-metre is sometimes used for both, in much the same way that foot-pounds can be used to quantify work or torque under the old Imperial measures. In both cases, although the labels use the same words they are not quantifying the same thing - torque is not work.
Roymondo:
Work = Force x Distance moved (not simply force x distance). i.e. If the object upon which the force is exerted doesn’t move, no work is done. The SI unit of work is the Joule, which is the work expended by a force of 1 Newton moving through a distance of 1 metre. This is where the confusion between torque and work arises. This confusion is not helped by the fact that the term Newton-metre is sometimes used for both, in much the same way that foot-pounds can be used to quantify work or torque under the old Imperial measures. In both cases, although the labels use the same words they are not quantifying the same thing - torque is not work.
As I said the only reason why torque won’t translate as work is because there’s an equivalent if not more braking force being applied to stop it.While if torque isn’t work feel free to explain the requirement for all that gear reduction on that truck motor and what it actually does.Assuming the answer isn’t turning useless ‘movement’ in the form of power into useful ‘work’ in the form of more torque.Also bearing in mind that as in the case of power the two sides of the torque x speed equation are interchangeable.The force x distance moved ones are in the case of work.IE in this case we’ve traded distance travelled by the wheels for more force in the form of torque to create ‘work’.Which is why that 730 hp V8 Scania is going no where without loads of gear reduction to multiply its puny torque output into an amount that will provide enough torque ( work ) to actually move the truck.
Did this at uni cant remeber exactly now, but work an torque are different even though mesured in same unit. Google it or read a physics book.
m_attt:
Did this at uni cant remeber exactly now, but work an torque are different even though mesured in same unit. Google it or read a physics book.
How do you explain an increase in power output of an engine by just increasing it’s torque output without increasing and possibly even decreasing its engine speed in that case ?.
Carryfast:
As I said the only reason why torque won’t translate as work is because there’s an equivalent if not more braking force being applied to stop it.While if torque isn’t work feel free to explain the requirement for all that gear reduction on that truck motor and what it actually does.Assuming the answer isn’t turning useless ‘movement’ in the form of power into useful ‘work’ in the form of more torque.Also bearing in mind that as in the case of power the two sides of the torque x speed equation are interchangeable.The force x distance moved ones are in the case of work.IE in this case we’ve traded distance travelled by the wheels for more force in the form of torque to create ‘work’.Which is why that 730 hp V8 Scania is going no where without loads of gear reduction to multiply its puny torque output into an amount that will provide enough torque ( work ) to actually move the truck.
No mate, you have said that “torque is work” and that “force means work”. Now you are saying that “torque won’t translate as work”, all the time referring to brakes (which convert kinetic energy into heat) while actually talking about a rigidly fixed gate hinge (which does no such thing when a load is applied by a bloke sitting on the other end of the gate). You either have no real idea of what you are talking about, or are very poor indeed at putting it into words.
Roymondo:
Carryfast:
As I said the only reason why torque won’t translate as work is because there’s an equivalent if not more braking force being applied to stop it.While if torque isn’t work feel free to explain the requirement for all that gear reduction on that truck motor and what it actually does.Assuming the answer isn’t turning useless ‘movement’ in the form of power into useful ‘work’ in the form of more torque.Also bearing in mind that as in the case of power the two sides of the torque x speed equation are interchangeable.The force x distance moved ones are in the case of work.IE in this case we’ve traded distance travelled by the wheels for more force in the form of torque to create ‘work’.Which is why that 730 hp V8 Scania is going no where without loads of gear reduction to multiply its puny torque output into an amount that will provide enough torque ( work ) to actually move the truck.No mate, you have said that “torque is work” and that “force means work”. Now you are saying that “torque won’t translate as work”, all the time referring to brakes (which convert kinetic energy into heat) while actually talking about a rigidly fixed gate hinge (which does no such thing when a load is applied by a bloke sitting on the other end of the gate). You either have no real idea of what you are talking about, or are very poor indeed at putting it into words.
You’re saying a bloke sitting on the end of a 14 ft gate won’t translate as ‘work’ if the bolts are removed from the top or bottom hinges.The clamping force of the bolts holding the hinges to the post being the ‘brake’ in that case.
Or sitting on the end of the same 14 foot bar attached to the hub of a car wheel won’t translate as movement/work in moving the car if the hand brake is released.
Meanwhile if torque isn’t work then feel free to answer that question as to how just increasing torque output of an engine can increase power output with no increase or even a reduction in engine speed.
Carryfast:
You’re saying a bloke sitting on the end of a 14 ft gate won’t translate as ‘work’ if the bolts are removed from the top or bottom hinges.The clamping force of the bolts holding the hinges to the post being the ‘brake’ in that case.Or sitting on the end of the same 14 foot bar attached to the hub of a car wheel won’t translate as movement if the hand brake is released.
Please point me in the direction of my having said anything of the sort.
Meanwhile if torque isn’t work then feel free to answer that question as to how just increasing torque output of an engine can increase power output with no increase or even a reduction in engine speed.
That question has nothing to do with whether or not torque is work. Power is in effect the ratio between work done and the time taken to do it, so an engine developing more torque is pretty much bound to show a corresponding increase in power since it will either shift a heavier load or shift the same load faster.
Roymondo:
Carryfast:
Meanwhile if torque isn’t work then feel free to answer that question as to how just increasing torque output of an engine can increase power output with no increase or even a reduction in engine speed.That question has nothing to do with whether or not torque is work. Power is in effect the ratio between work done and the time taken to do it, so an engine developing more torque is pretty much bound to show a corresponding increase in power since it will either shift a heavier load or shift the same load faster.
You’re saying torque supposedly isn’t ‘work’ but now you’re saying that just increasing the torque output of an engine will make it produce more ‘work’ by shifting a heavier load or shifting it faster.Make your mind up.Did you go to the same uni as Bking. 