I don’t have +E (yet) but I could pull his caravan with my Ford Galaxy because it’s ULW is less than his Nissan Patrol. IE: combo is less than 3500kg and ULW is more than the MAM of caravan.
Gembo:
At last, thanks Baz.
So he cant tow the bloody caravan as is what ive been saying
And you’re still wrong.
You’re right as far as that he can’t tow the caravan with the vehicle he mentioned (Nissan Patrol) but he already knew this as he said so in his post.
However that is not the question he asked. The question was “is there a different car I can use to legally to this caravan”. The answer to that question is yes, as long as the car has a MAM of 2080kg or less and a kerb weight of 1420kg or more.
Paul
MADBAZ:
I don’t have +E (yet) but I could pull his caravan with my Ford Galaxy because it’s ULW is less than his Nissan Patrol. IE: combo is less than 3500kg and ULW is more than the MAM of caravan.
I could be wrong but I think a Galaxy will have a MAM of over 2080kg and therefore would not be suitable to pull the OP’s caravan on a category B licence. Can’t find anything online either way though.
Paul
Another example I’m shifting tonnes of soil from my newly forming drive to the tip, about 48t in total, my neighbour offered me his braked trailer with a MAM of 2 tonnes,I can get a lot of soil in that.
BUT the ULW of the Galaxy is ~1700kg. 1700+2000=3700 which is over the 3500kg combo limit AND the ULW is less than the trailer MAM.
The only way I can do it is with my 750kg un-braked trailer shifting ~0.5t at a time, Or with a trailer which has a MAM of 1700kg or less.
Or…he could sell the 'van and buy a tent 
del949:
Or…he could sell the 'van and buy a tent
That didn’t work for me, have you tried getting 1 missus, me and 4 rugrats + camping gear in a car, you need a trailer…
oh oh here we go again.
MADBAZ:
Simply put,
Pre '97
Up to 8.25 tonnes.
Post '97
up to 4.25 tonnes total MAM, providing the trailer MAM is no more than 750kg.
up to 3.5 tonnes total MAM, providing the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the UNLADEN (kerb) WEIGHT of the prime mover.
That’s a reasonable statement of the rules, though the statement about pre-1997 is potentially misleading as the category of the tractor matters too. BE is a category B tractor plus a trailer, and has no MAM limit. C1 would cover a C1 tractor (no more than eight passenger seats, MAM between 3.5 and 7.5t) towing a trailer of up to 750kg. C1E (up to 8.25t) covers a C1 tractor plus a trailer so long as the combination MAM does not exceed 8.25t. All these categories are included in a pre-1997 car licence.
Brevity is good, but it can be taken too far.
MADBAZ:
The MAM and unladen weights, are different things and are clearly visible in the directgov links.
Indeed, though the definitive statement of the law is schedule 2 of The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 (SI 1999/2864). There are no free versions of the text including all the amendments, but they are not important here.
MADBAZ:
Nissan patrol unladen (as per OP) is 2300 kg, trailer has a MAM of 1420 kg, 2300+1420=3720 which is a simple NO on a post '97 cat B license.
Having just said that MAM and unladen weights are different things, you then went and mixed them up.
The combination MAM is 3150kg for the vehicle and 1420kg for the caravan - a total of 4570kg as I stated earlier. As the MAM of the vehicle is within 750kg of the 3500kg combination limit, it is not possible to make use of the rules for towing a trailer over 750kg MAM whilst remaining in category B. The heaviest trailer that jjcymru can tow using his Nissan Patrol without upgrading his licence is 750kg MAM.
MADBAZ:
THIS IS THE LINK TO THE DIRECT GOV WEBSITE not some wobblebox site.
But, as I said, that isn’t the definitive statement of the law. (In fact, if you really want to get technical, the EU Directive is arguably the definitive statement of the law, but it does not apply directly in the UK. I’ll spare you the essay on direct applicability, direct effect, indirect effect, State liability, the supremacy of EU law and the ‘reference’ procedure under Article 267 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union which allows the UK courts to raise questions with the Court of Justice of the European Union - we’ll be here all night).
MADBAZ:
BUT the ULW of the Galaxy is ~1700kg. 1700+2000=3700 which is over the 3500kg combo limit AND the ULW is less than the trailer MAM.
You’re getting the right answer (that you can’t tow that 2000kg MAM trailer with your Galaxy) but you’re doing the sums wrong.
The MAM (not the ULW) of your Galaxy is what you should be using when working out if the combination fits within the 3500kg limit.
Paul
repton:
Gembo:
At last, thanks Baz.
So he cant tow the bloody caravan as is what ive been sayingAnd you’re still wrong.
You’re right as far as that he can’t tow the caravan with the vehicle he mentioned (Nissan Patrol) but he already knew this as he said so in his post.
However that is not the question he asked. The question was “is there a different car I can use to legally to this caravan”. The answer to that question is yes, as long as the car has a MAM of 2080kg or less and a kerb weight of 1420kg or more.
Ok Paul, I ■■■■■■ up 
3500KG is the figure. The gross train weight of the combination cant exceed 3500kg with a cat B as it obviously does with a Nissan Patrol.
Your right, if he got a towing vehicle who’s MAM didnt exceed 2080 kg he could tow it with a “B” entiltment.
Please except my appologies.
But this, posted above completely confuses-
“”“”"The combination MAM is 3150kg for the vehicle and 1420kg for the caravan - a total of 4570kg as I stated earlier. As the MAM of the vehicle is within 750kg of the 3500kg combination limit, it is not possible to make use of the rules for towing a trailer over 750kg MAM whilst remaining in category B. The heaviest trailer that jjcymru can tow using his Nissan Patrol without upgrading his licence is 750kg MAM.
djw:
MADBAZ:
Simply put,
Pre '97
Up to 8.25 tonnes.
Post '97
up to 4.25 tonnes total MAM, providing the trailer MAM is no more than 750kg.
up to 3.5 tonnes total MAM, providing the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the UNLADEN (kerb) WEIGHT of the prime mover.
That’s a reasonable statement of the rules, though the statement about pre-1997 is potentially misleading as the category of the tractor matters too. BE is a category B tractor plus a trailer, and has no MAM limit. C1 would cover a C1 tractor (no more than eight passenger seats, MAM between 3.5 and 7.5t) towing a trailer of up to 750kg. C1E (up to 8.25t) covers a C1 tractor plus a trailer so long as the combination MAM does not exceed 8.25t. All these categories are included in a pre-1997 car licence.
Brevity is good, but it can be taken too far.
MADBAZ:
The MAM and unladen weights, are different things and are clearly visible in the directgov links.Indeed, though the definitive statement of the law is schedule 2 of The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 (SI 1999/2864). There are no free versions of the text including all the amendments, but they are not important here.
MADBAZ:
Nissan patrol unladen (as per OP) is 2300 kg, trailer has a MAM of 1420 kg, 2300+1420=3720 which is a simple NO on a post '97 cat B license.Having just said that MAM and unladen weights are different things, you then went and mixed them up.
WHERE EXACTLYThe combination MAM is 3150kg for the vehicle and 1420kg for the caravan - a total of 4570kg as I stated earlier. As the MAM of the vehicle is within 750kg of the 3500kg combination limit, it is not possible to make use of the rules for towing a trailer over 750kg MAM whilst remaining in category B. The heaviest trailer that jjcymru can tow using his Nissan Patrol without upgrading his licence is 750kg MAM.
NO IT’S NOT, 3500kg-2300ULW=1200 trailer MAM it isn’t rocket science. The combination MAM would be 3150GVW + 3500kg towing capacity = 6650kg which is not unusual for a DPV.MADBAZ:
THIS IS THE LINK TO THE DIRECT GOV WEBSITE not some wobblebox site.But, as I said, that isn’t the definitive statement of the law. (In fact, if you really want to get technical, the EU Directive is arguably the definitive statement of the law, but it does not apply directly in the UK. I’ll spare you the essay on direct applicability, direct effect, indirect effect, State liability, the supremacy of EU law and the ‘reference’ procedure under Article 267 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union which allows the UK courts to raise questions with the Court of Justice of the European Union - we’ll be here all night).
OMG the rules are simple put in simple terms on a simple website, have you ever thought about being a CPC trainer?
Motoring
Towing trailers or caravans with vehicles up to 3.5 tonnesIn this article reference is made to the maximum authorised mass (MAM) of vehicles and trailers. This should be taken to mean the permissible maximum weight, also known as the gross vehicle weight.
Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats
Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
For example:
a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Whereas
the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle’s handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.
Towing caravans
As for towing caravans, existing general guidance recommends that the laden weight of the caravan does not exceed 85 per cent of the unladen weight of the car. In the majority of cases, caravans and small trailers towed by cars should be within the new category B threshold.
The bit in red 
MADBAZ:
NO IT’S NOT, 3500kg-2300ULW=1200 trailer MAM it isn’t rocket science. The combination MAM would be 3150GVW + 3500kg towing capacity = 6650kg which is not unusual for a DPV.
Yes it is.
As I said above the sum of the two MAMs must be under 3500kg, NOT the sum of the MAM of the trailer and the ULW of the towing vehicle.
The combaination MAM is 3150kg GVW plus whatever the MAM of the trailer is the total of which must not exceed 3500kg for this rule.
So if the towing vehicle has a MAM of 3150kg then the biggest trailer you can legally tow on a category B licence is 750kg.
Paul
Yep, thats it in a nutshell Baz.
Im off for a beer .
MADBAZ:
or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.
The bit in red
The bit in red proves what you are saying is wrong! It states that the combination must not exceed 3500kg MAM. If the MAM of the towing vehicle is 3150kg that only leaves 350kg before you hit 3500kg and therefore that rule is completely irrelevant for the purposes of working out what a category B licence holder can tow.
Therefore you fall back on the other rule which is that you can tow a trailer up to 750kg MAM.
Paul
repton:
MADBAZ:
NO IT’S NOT, 3500kg-2300ULW=1200 trailer MAM it isn’t rocket science. The combination MAM would be 3150GVW + 3500kg towing capacity = 6650kg which is not unusual for a DPV.Yes it is.
As I said above the sum of the two MAMs must be under 3500kg, NOT the sum of the MAM of the trailer and the ULW of the towing vehicle.
So if the towing vehicle has a MAM of 3150kg then the biggest trailer you can legally tow on a category B licence is 750kg.
Paul
I agree, ULW’s dont factor in to any calculation here, its always the MAM of both trailer and tractor.
repton:
MADBAZ:
NO IT’S NOT, 3500kg-2300ULW=1200 trailer MAM it isn’t rocket science. The combination MAM would be 3150GVW + 3500kg towing capacity = 6650kg which is not unusual for a DPV.Yes it is.
As I said above the sum of the two MAMs must be under 3500kg, NOT the sum of the MAM of the trailer and the ULW of the towing vehicle.
So if the towing vehicle has a MAM of 3150kg then the biggest trailer you can legally tow on a category B licence is 750kg.
Paul
Where’s the edit button, must RTFM properly. Sorry gents, just had a similar argument at work over a Focus and caravan and everyone said 750kg is the limit.
You are partly right Baz. (forget about license entitlements now) You cant tow a trailer if the MAM of the trailer exceeds the ULW of the towing vehicle.
Example, my wobble box weighs 1350 kg MAM, the kerbweight of my car is 1600 kg and the maximum i can tow is 1600kg as per the book for the car (Legally).
On the other hand If my towing vehicles kerb weight was less than the MAM of the van ’ I’d be breaking the law.
I was only looking at ULW and trailer MAM, not the combo MAM, and after a heated argument at work with others insisting that a focus can’t pull anything over 750kg without +E (my old one couldn’t pull my weight let alone a 'van) I guess I got blinkered.
Did the OP get his answer??
repton:
MADBAZ:
I don’t have +E (yet) but I could pull his caravan with my Ford Galaxy because it’s ULW is less than his Nissan Patrol. IE: combo is less than 3500kg and ULW is more than the MAM of caravan.I could be wrong but I think a Galaxy will have a MAM of over 2080kg and therefore would not be suitable to pull the OP’s caravan on a category B licence. Can’t find anything online either way though.
The Galaxy is going to be over 2080kg MAM. The lowest MAM of a (new style) Vauxhall Zafira Tourer is 2150kg, and the Galaxy is a bigger vehicle all round.
Gembo:
You are partly right Baz. (forget about license entitlements now) You cant tow a trailer if the MAM of the trailer exceeds the ULW of the towing vehicle.
Example, my wobble box weighs 1350 kg MAM, the kerbweight of my car is 1600 kg and the maximum i can tow is 1600kg as per the book for the car (Legally).
On the other hand If my towing vehicles kerb weight was less than the MAM of the van ’ I’d be breaking the law.
But it would only be illegal before 19 January 2013! On that date, the Third Driving Licence Directive is implemented. I’ve explained the changes in detail in this post. On 19 January 2013, the “vehicle unladen weight must exceed trailer MAM” element of the towing rules for category B licence disappears.
Towing on category B after 19 January 2013 is a category B vehicle plus:* trailer MAM 750kg or less, or
- trailer MAM added to vehicle MAM no more than 3500kg
The change is in this second option.
Edit: Corrected inadvertent error - the changes happen in January 2013 as I consistently put elsewhere on TruckNet and in this thread, not February 2013 as I put in the original version of this post.