Past Present and in Between in Pictures (Part 2)

[carryfast]

The fact is by the literal meaning of the word the NGC and Bedford TM and SA 400 were contemporary with the F88 in both the new and used markets.
The truth is the F88 was an inferior product by comparison ignoring the badge.

[carryfast]

Are you serious.My job is actually delivering and collecting them to/from all over the country.Everything from 4 cylinder types to SVR V8’s.
I probably drive as many if not more miles with them as my own car.The most recent 6 cylinder Ingenium is about as good as it gets.

[les_sylphides]

Sorry, yes SDU, that’s what I meant: retro-fitted. And here’s a fine example!

[les_sylphides]

I think the argument about Yanks vs Brits is heavily clouded by the fact that so many UK manufacturers of that period were assembling lorries with American drivelines. Foden, Leyland, Guy, ERF, Seddon-Atkinson, Ford, Bedford, Dennison and Scammell were all using either US engines, gearboxes or drive axles. ERF used all three as standard in its CP-series Cummins-Fuller-Rockwell set-up.

[star_down_under]

@carryfast

Tell us more about the big difference between a contemporary cab over KW v all the Brit examples I referred to.

The era being discussed is mid60s, the G88 being released in 1965. Were any of the trucks on your list available then? By the mid sixties, virtually nobody was buying new Pommie trucks, for long distance, full weight roles, in this country. British trucks were relegated to round town or regional pick up and delivery tasks. The Seattle 900s (predecessor to W Series) sat the driver 8’ behind the steer axle, a far more comfortable position than over the axle. The 100 and 900 trucks offered a proper seat rather than a plank attached to the back of the cab with a suspension base; sleeper dimensions that allowed a decent sleep and was integral to the design, rather than a cramped pod, stuck on as an after thought; 320 horsepower! Twice the grunt of anything out of the UK.
Quite obviously, you’ve never driven a Kenworth or White, have you ever driven a premium truck, or even any from your list?

[star_down_under]

@carryfast

Are you serious.

Are you? Comparing a Deefer to a Roller! In what weird mental space would someone even remotely consider such ridiculousness?
A short delivery drive can never substitute for owning any vehicle and knowing that vehicle properly. In your usual fashion, you think any slight brush you have with any subject, makes you the highest authority on that subject. You turn on a tap and think you’re a plumber.

[les_sylphides]

I’ve no wish to enter the fray re CF vs SDU, but with regard to your comment about the Pommie trucks doing locals, there were a few doing a bit more than that in Oz in the '60s. ERF exported quite a lot of trucks at that time.

![m

[carryfast]

That’s exactly the point.At this time there’s not much difference between a good Brit premium type truck, with typical American engine and driveline combination, v its American counterpart.
Which then leaves the answers to the question of why some/many drivers preferred the synchro type transmission, let alone obsolete cab, of the F88.I think previous conclusions have referred to badge loyalty rather than objectively.( With the exception of Dean who just took anything said against the F88 as a personal insult for some reason).
Like the AEC fan club.

[star_down_under]

Quite right Les, my comment was a bit of an overreach. Foden hung in for the rest of the decade and into the early 70s, but both were outsold by Kenworth, White, Mack and International. Aitkinson were the exception, properly engineered for the local conditions and specced with American motor and driveline they were as well respected as a Kenworth or White. I imagine the big A being distributed by IH helped their cause too.

[les_sylphides]

Cheers SDU. As has been pointed out before, there were so many factors and variables. Truck manufacturers changed their fortunes. ERF, for eg, ceased their European exports during the late ‘70s recession. Others were hit by social unrest, incompetence – or both. Leyland, who exported lots of lorries to Australia in the ‘50s ended on the scrap heap after poor BL management and militant unions sank that ship between them. Much-loved American drivelines like the Cummins-Fuller-Rockwell one used by ERF fell out of European favour over their version of green issues and so it goes on. I remember reporting for a transport magazine here that the Eaton Twins-Splitter (fantastic constant-mesh box) failed the Euro drive-by decibel test, which killed it off instantly, to be replaced by crap like AS-Tronic & Telligent. The kaleidoscope of the automotive industry!

[carryfast]

The era being referred to is early to late 1970’s obviously.The F10/12 being a late reaction to what the Brits were making during that time as opposed to the proactive innovation contained in the Brit trucks which I referred to.

[star_down_under]

The era to which we are referring, starts in 1965, at the release of the G 88. There was little available from Europe that could hold a candle to it, then.
You have deftly tried to avoid answering my question. I cannot be more direct, how many of the mentioned trucks have you driven? Have you ever driven a premium truck?

[carryfast]

I’m saying that the F88 was made obsolete by the products that the Brits were turning out in the early to mid 1970’s.
You’re saying that the F88 was ok by the standards of 1965.
Ironically the Bedford TM and V10 Mercedes NG were among the the first trucks I drove.
Bearing in mind that I detest synchro transmissions more than Ro it wasn’t a difficult choice between them.

[carryfast]

Foden supposedly out for the count by the early 1970’s.Not exactly unless you want to remove a decade or two of history.More like the peak was the Paccar years.

Nz trucking its a Foden day

[ramone]

Does anyone know what this plate would have been fitted to.I’m guessing it could be a Reliance with a ZF box.

[star_down_under]

@carryfast

Ironically the Bedford TM and V10 Mercedes NG were among the the first trucks I drove.

So, in short no. Bedford being cheap and cheerful with the Benz being quite rightfully called, Hitler’s revenge. Neither remotely considered premium. We never got the TM, but Bedford were replaced by the far superior, Japanese Isuzu in the following decade.

[spardo]

Just a short comment from me re ‘60s in Oz. Buntine, when I was there, was by then 100% Mack, but there were still plenty of Fodens about, notably Ted Stiles’ Outback Transport. Also Baldock’s I think it was, had a load of Leylands. They both seemed committed to those marques at the time.
I did note a longtime ago that I saw something called an AEC Mustang. It had an LAD cab which in Britain was reserved for Leyland, Albion and Dodge, obviously.

[carryfast]

Obviously Australia was/is a closed minded backwater compared to NZ.
Where The Bedford TM was/is considered the same as a TK and the Merc NG/SK didn’t happen all being considered inferior to the F88.
It makes you wonder why Volvo bothered to finally introduce the F10.
While it’s Toyota’s and Isuzus which are virtually impossible to insure in La La land, not Range Rovers, because of their attraction to customers all over the world, including the type that don’t want to pay for them.

[les_sylphides]

I would just sneak in to point out that SDU’s description of Bedfords being cheap and cheerful was accurate - until the TM came out. Bedfords had always been at the low weight, low power, low everything end of haulage. The TM was a quantum leap that took us all by surprise. It was very much a premium unit at 44 tonne rating, massive 400 bhp Detroit, 9-sp Fuller and a very well-appointed cab. Everything about it was up there with the rest. I strongly suspect it was slow to take off:

a) because we all still associated Bedford with tinny little day-cabbed run-abouts and
b) because it started with a Detroit instead of a Cummins.

Detroit was almost unheard of here at that time. Same happened with the Crusader. Once the Oz-spec Crusader with its Detroit power had been fettled by BRS and given four wheels and a Rolls Royce, it took off as a successful fleet motor. All in my humble opinion, of course

[star_down_under]

@les_sylphides Scammell (Routeman) were amongst the last holdouts from the motherland, but i only ever saw a handful, all eight wheelers.